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Frank or Jobi this one is for you

Sighthunter Oct 10, 2007 09:32 PM

Complex question for Mr. Rete but Jobi has pequed my intrest so have at it.

This is a monitor question. Colubrids, my racers have faster reflexes than other colubrids they can see artificial light cycling at 60 Hz. My falcons also cannot perceive artificial light all they see is a flashing light at 60Hz. My captive hatched tropical racers do not care but my imports hate artificial light and my assumption is that they are used to natural light not flashing from their perspective.

I already know your usual spiel (Frank) about if mine are OK why do you worry. I worry because Some of my planned monitors are imports and some are captive hatched imports which I will not worry so much about.

Your question should be how do you know animals can perceive what you are talking about. The truth is I have hard data on my Falcons that have to make split second decisions at 265 Mph yes documented at 265.

My racers it is observation and success when changing the variables so an educated or uneducated guess. I know your intention is to keep the masses focused on the end game (helping the world understand reproduction in monitors) and that is where your focus should be as it is an anemic area. I am not the masses and I dig somewhat deeper when getting my feet wet.

My question for you is (and I know you know) are import monitors sub-adult or adult perceive a difference in light?

I already know all about the other stressors or can imaging the horrors the incur in transit try to focus on my actual question so I can try to understand more in the arena of lighting (artifitial) vs natural.
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"Life without risk is to merely exist."

Replies (27)

FR Oct 10, 2007 11:23 PM

Why would you ask such a question. That question is not even in context for your falcons. As they cannot go anywhere near 200 plus miles an hour, IN YOUR CAGES.

With birds, you can fly them outside. But your monitors will never hunt naturally. They will be in cages, either or both, indoors or outdoors, but in cages just the same. They will no be going that fast or anywhere near fast.

My point is, They, monitors, wildcaught or otherwise, perform well indoors and outdoors. In fact, if your conditions are good. They could stand to slow down a bit, Then I would not have these five stitches, oh wait, its healed over. In otherwords, your birds will not have anything on a healthy monitor at temperature. And I do not care what lite it is.

For your enjoyment, monitors also hunt at night in the dark.

You see, your questions are much like many of the academics(problem theories) They are not in context with what your going to do or attempt to do.

You must first simply keep them in a normal successful fashion. Which should allow both life functions and longevity. None of what your talking about has any effect on this.

To switch the subject a little. When you ask these questions, you do remind me of Scott. hahahahahahahahahahaha. Hmmmmmmmmmmm, more then a neighbor, maybe?

Anyway, after you achieve a level of success, you could think about and work with these lite and toid questions. In the meantime. Your wasting my typing fingers as those things are not in your immediate future.

To worry about such things is needless worry. You can do that if you like, but I have no need to worry about stuff extraneous to the application.

If your going to keep monitors, get with it. Its not THAT complicated. There does not appear to be a difference between captive produced and wild caught, other then bad social habits. And wildcaught stressed out, abused, tortured individuals. Cheers

Sighthunter Oct 10, 2007 11:59 PM

It has to do with reflex and how fast they process images while hunting. A falcon if they were to watch TV would only see flashing light since they process images so fast.

My racers do the same light from an AC cycles and flashes, we do not see the falshing since we process things to slow. The reflex of predators is geared different and they see only a strobe light.
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"Life without risk is to merely exist."

FR Oct 11, 2007 01:12 AM

The point is, monitors see and hunt just fine. And in both natural and artificial lite.

Also, What little experience I had with falcons, they too hunted just fine with indoor liting. Cheers

Sighthunter Oct 11, 2007 03:08 PM

I am in the process of choosing artificial light setting up one large enclosure. I have a choice of light bulbs. I am sure you would suggest the cheapest simplest light bulb but in such a large enclosure my options are unlimited. I was considering Metal Halide light and a Lexan window.

Sound OK?

What would you use?
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"Life without risk is to merely exist."

jobi Oct 12, 2007 03:26 PM

I think you are missing the boat about varanids husbandry.
It’s not about lights or space! It’s about how they relate to your monitors? How they will serve them.

Do you really think having an extra large cage with all the goodies will automatically set you up for success?

Sorry but in my book we use raise up cages so that we can offer these monitors usable options, then as they grow we progress to larger cages with similar options on a larger scale, of course by then you will know witch monitors can be housed together and witch will kill each other.

Simple smaller allows you to make pertinent observation of any monitors progress, if one doesn’t feed you see it and make the necessary corrections, you will need to separate them sooner or later.

Throwing 6 individuals in a larger set up will make everything more complicated.

FR Oct 12, 2007 05:17 PM

I missed that because I was too busy with toids and laser lites.

But your right, and I totally passed over these animals being babies.

Babies will not work in a large room cage. I take that back, some will and some won't. But I do not think that is a good goal.

With babies is all about hydration, they dehydrate many many times faster then adults. A small mistake and its over with babies. Small is to scale with a room sized cage.

I will state my normal procedure. I hatch them, start them off in 10 gallon aquaria, then move to raiseup cages, then to larger cages.

I am sure sighthunter understands this as he would never start a baby snake in one of his adult cages, would he?

Well, I am sure it can be done, but thats not how you start, thats something on the other end of the experience range.

But thanks for bringing this subject up, as we missed it. I am sure we missed many others. Thats why I think taking about advanced issues is somewhat out of place. We are missing life and death basic issues. Cheers

sidbarvin Oct 13, 2007 12:42 AM

My experience is limited to only a handfull of monitors so obviously my statements should be taken with a grain of salt. Along the lines of what Frank and Jobi have stated, I have put some small monitors in larger cages with deep substrate thinking this would be better for the monitors and save me some time and money on caging. I have come to the conclusion that bigger is not necessarily better for raiseup cages, especially for someone with little or no experience with monitors. The large setups have made reading and responding to behavior very difficult if not impossible for me at times. It seems to give them the opportunity to operate unseen. The monitors I have kept in size appropriate sized cages have seemed to do much better since I can see what's going on with the critters and adjust my husbandry accordingly. Maybe if I were more experienced this would be otherwise and I would know how to use bigger cage and get the results I want.

Sighthunter Oct 14, 2007 11:58 PM

Yes I will be setting them up in an apropriate sized smaller cage indoors until they get size to them, I kinda figured it out with all the back and forth stuff.

Thanx
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"Life without risk is to merely exist."

JPsShadow Oct 11, 2007 09:12 AM

From my experience Falcons nor Monitors watch TV or learn from it. So I think your safe and shouldn't worry about them not being able to see the images on the screen. Of course I would wonder how you would gauge such a theory and test it but thats irrelevant to this forum.

What I think you should ask is have we noticed any problems with them feeding or hunting in our artificial lighting. In that I would say no. Lights on or off my monitors don't have a problem finding the food I offer.

You can think out of the box all you want, but keep in mind the monitors we keep are in a box.

jasper2 Oct 11, 2007 07:29 AM

Hi,

I know chickens can get stressed out by normal Tl tubes in the barn. there are many examples of that. In Holland we use high fequency tubes inside so that the chickens don't see blinking lights all day.That can really slow their egg procuction down. I don't think normal incandecent or halogen lights are a problem though, beause they work differently, and they are most commonly used in monitor cages. A TL in the room itself will be less of a problem if it is several yards away.
It is probably hard to tell if it irritates monitors, I mean the chickens don't die or stop growing from normal TL or anything, it just makes them less productive, which is hard to measure in monitors if you don't produce them on an industrial scale.

Jasper

Sighthunter Oct 11, 2007 02:17 PM

Yes you are tracking. My captive hatched racers do not get bothered by the strobe of the light but my imports do. That is why I asked the question in reference to monitors, yes I can get them to adjust but an import will kick into gear quicker without the strobe.
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"Life without risk is to merely exist."

HappyHillbilly Oct 11, 2007 09:15 AM

No offense intended, as I kinda find this a tad intriguing, BUT:

> > > I am not the masses and I dig somewhat deeper when getting my feet wet.

While getting your feet wet, if you're not careful and dig too much, guess what happens? I assume you know the temperature of the earth's core.

Dude, take off that thinkin' cap, put it on the floor, and baaaaacckkk away from it. It's the wrong one. Ha! Ha! Smile!

Later!
HH
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Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

Sighthunter Oct 11, 2007 02:25 PM

The monitors I am starting with are a tad bit more money than my initial planed ones. I am paranoid by nature (kinda fun)so I apologize.

Yes the question is akward but still a question. I doubt this one has been addressed in the past and if Frank allows some light in through a window in addition to bulbs I would like to know.
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"Life without risk is to merely exist."

HappyHillbilly Oct 11, 2007 09:31 PM

> > > I doubt this one has been addressed in the past...

I'll bet it hasn't. Ha! Ha!

Relax, I'm just pickin' at ya. Just like I was in my first post here. You see, those lil' twirlin' smilies mean "fun" to me. That's why I include them in most of my humor posts. < Like that one. And like this one >

If I hit a sore spot, just let me know and I'll back off & leave ya be.

On a more serious note:
I haven't read over half the posts in your thread, yet. I just got in from work & saw you had replied to me. I think that without you realizing it, you answered your own question in your reply to me.

> > > The monitors I am starting with are a tad bit more money than my initial planed ones.

You didn't say that they were a newly discovered species so I feel it's safe to assume that the monitors in question have been around for awhile. Meaning that many other people have already kept this species.

> > > Yes the question is akward but still a question. I doubt this one has been addressed in the past...

If this question hasn't been addressed before with the species of your concern, or any other species for that matter, and many other people have kept this species, then there must not be an issue.

One last thing:
Don't mind me, I mean you no harm. Carry on.

Smile!

Hang in there!
HH

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Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

FR Oct 11, 2007 10:42 AM

I have been concentrating on why you feel the need to think about extraneous stuff.(look it up)

Now I wonder why you say what you say. How the Frack(BG) do you know what your snake sees? Anwser that one simple question. Cheers

Sighthunter Oct 11, 2007 02:36 PM

I simply observe them like you do your monitors. I observe behavior and change the variables if I experience problems. You know what causes your lizards stress by observing them and you make adjustments as needed as you have mentioned.

One of the areas of concern was one I had to adjust in racers. I work with Spilotes and am one of the only breeders that have bred them into F2 generation. I noticed the imported adults would not act like the ones raised under artificial light nor bask the same. When they were offered natural light they acted exactly the same.

The light was the only variable I had to change to get the results I was after so my question was an honest one and there is room for comments as I am always open to. I do not know what my reptiles see I can only imagine with dialog like this.
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"Life without risk is to merely exist."

MaxPeterson Oct 11, 2007 03:12 PM

HAHAHAHAHAHA!
I've had a similar discussion with Bill, & I don't know what my snakes, or even other people see. I do know that most people's computers are set at a low enough resolution that the strobe effect of the monitor (The kind attached to the computer) drives me nuts & causes a headache. Some fluorescent lights will bother me in the same way - other people that I'm around don't even notice the flashing.
If it's bothering the animals, they'll let you know, but only if the keeper is in tune with his animals.
Cheers,
Max

SHvar Oct 11, 2007 11:16 AM

On the subject of lightbulbs flashing, Im sure it does nothing to them, or that they would even see it, in fact I use multiple lights in 2 of my monitors cages, 2-4 bulbs flashing, must seem like a disco if you could slow the image down enough.

About diving speed of falcons, the fastest speed clocked by any animal in motion were peregrine falcons, but the speeds ranged between 150-200 mph making them the fastest animal that has ever lived. I believe that you refer to a peregrine diving in kilometers per hour, 265 KPH equals 159 MPH. I did find reference to the highest ESTIMATED dive speed, that was thought to be around 220 mph, but never clocked near that fast.
I remember reading once that the name hayabusa is a Japanese translation to peregrine falcon, the motorcycle was so named because its top speed (in factory form) was the same as the highest ever official speed measured of a peregrine in a dive, this was infact about 189-194 mph, until they were limited to 186 mph.

None the less Ive never seen a single reptile react to a light being turned on in any way that indicates they are stressed by them or that they even notice anything beyond it being a heat and light source. If anything I would think that a reptile would process images slower in their brains than a mammal or a bird.

In my house the only ones watching TV are my wife, our cat (not very often, mainly when small animals are on it), our dogs (only if wolves or lupine dogs are on it for whatever reason), and myself, but I have noticed recently that our TV must flash images alot faster than any of its predecessors have, if you view it through a video camera the images do not flash or roll, it is exactly as it appears to the normal eye, unlike the older TVs, then again does digital vs analog make that difference?

I remember hearing once that falcons in a dive or in flight at speed change their point of focus and reference as much as possible to keep a accurate reference as to how close they are to their intended target and it allows them to react fast enough during a dive (without impacting with unintended objects), not that they process the images that much faster.
Beautiful creatures by the way, raptors are gorgeous animals. Seems that almost on schedule every 10 years I find one injured in an accident with a large truck, and contact the same "raptor rehab". Im sure the last 2 didnt mind the mice, deer meat, etc while waiting to go drop them off.

Sighthunter Oct 11, 2007 02:43 PM

We now skydive with our falcons and have new data. A flacon can warp ( pull the shoulders back) and pass the fastest free falling human like he is standing still. Still trying to figure out how it works.

Sorry I am trying to stay on the subject of lighting for monitors. My questions might sound stupid but it helps me in the long run seting up an enclosure. I was considering a combination of lexan windows and metal halide overhead lighting. I have had good sucess with Metal Halide in the past.
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"Life without risk is to merely exist."

jburokas Oct 11, 2007 05:35 PM

n/p

FR Oct 11, 2007 06:02 PM

Hmmmmmm I have no problem. hahahahahaha

You already know what your going to do, SO DO IT. You already know the basic parameters, so do it. If your asking just go be part of the gang, there are a million other things to ask about.

You indicate I recomend the cheapest. Far from it. My only responsibility is to offer what works. If the cheapest works, you now have a choice from across the board.

You ask as if your going to actually do whats said. I feel that is wrong. Your going to do what your going to do. And my feeling is, you should. So do it.

Of course I have mentioned this before, JUST DO IT. If you have problems with your predetermined approach, then we can fix it later. Just do it.

In all reality, all of us old timers understand, the experience with your snake species, DOES NOT APPLY. Monitors are far easier. You actually can treat them like mammals. They will do it themselves if givin a marginal oppertunity.

CONSIDER, Only you have your conditions, so only you can solve them, to ask if your lites and lexan will work is silly. WORK FOR WHAT? You do not say what its suppose to work for. I would hope you buy them in functioning order, if you did, they will work. Hit the switch and lite comes out. After that, its how you use them that is meaningful.

I sort of have a hard time with you, as your smart, or possible only act smart. You should know that its how you use the tools, not the tools themselves. About MH bulbs, vs. Halogen and incandesent. My suggestions are all about availability. I want something I can replace in a HURRY and easily. Considering they ALL will work, I want something I can send the lowest rung on the ladder to get and get it anywhere. Most of the time that person is me.

Practical application is what comes to my mind. For instance are you installing one or two MH lites per cage. I ask this, what happens if one fails? what effect on the cage is there? Now compare that too using a bank of halogen or incandesent floods. If you have a bank of five bulbs, if one fails(all lites will fail) it has no realtime effect on the cage as a whole.

Level two of practical application. What happens if your power fails? compare the effect on MH bulbs vs. halogen and incandesent bulbs. I really do not know how surges and outages effect MH bulbs and I have forgotten if they require a starter. Hmmmmmmmmmm starting to get complicated hey.

Those cheap bulbs are not so complicated, and not hard to find, and not hard to replace the whole quissmo if needed. God I love being practical.

You know when I announce that I have had varanus eggs incubating since 91. Most take that as bragging about me or monitors. Nope, its bragging about a practical design that has not failed in that lenght of time.

You know when I recomend troughts, its not cause I am in cahoots with the trough makers. Its because I set up trough stype cages in 91 and are still functioning now with NO MODIFICATIONS.

What I find important is not the cost but the availibility. What I find important is maintainance, not does it work. Heck, I can make a candle work. But it would be a lot of work.

I want tools and designs that allow me to WORK on the animals and not the cages.

I do not know you, you may simply point and have someone else do it. Thats why I cannot help you. I do not know anything about you. You do not talk about those things.

You only talk about things extraneous to keeping monitors. Toids and pulses and other such.

That fella in Maimi that just hatched lacies, I told him he would be the best varanid breeder. The reason was simple, the quality of his questions and the timing of his questions. He was spot on as to what is important. My guess is, Chun could breed anything anywhere with any tool. The reason is, he learned what is needed and applies it. Its not the tools that is important. Tools should be like a NY taxi, just catch the next one.

You on the otherhand are either past that or WAY BELOW THAT. hahahahahahahahaha because your questions are extraneous and sir, do not take offense, that is commonplace.

Most that fail, do so because they are concerned with the wrong things. Most that fail spend their time and energy working on stuff that doesn't matter. It wears them out and their charges fail. So if I could help you at all it would be to direct you to WHAT IS IMPORTANT, not talk about all kind of goofy stuff(the extraneous)(thats my word of the day)

Lastly about your tropical ratsnakes. Your missing the boat. the difference is not the lite, but their own learning. Reptiles are quick learns, their life depends on it. Wild caught reptiles are prejudiced to certain conditions and their life depends upon it. Captives have all that taken care of, so they do not have to respond the same way. They condition to what is of value in captivity. Vs. wildcaughts that respond to what THEY HAVE ALREADY LEARNED. Wild caughts know real lite as lite. Captives do not(yet) You simply gave the wrong reason for what they do. They know a lite buld is not the sun. I never fell for that either. hahahahahahaha so many thing a lite bulb can be the sun. hahahahahahahaha that makes me laugh.

Its sad to see folks are so jaded they cannot breed ratsnakes. As they are very easy, get them out of a shoebox and give them some temp choices and all is well. You know, like a lizard. Enough, later, cheers

Sighthunter Oct 11, 2007 07:29 PM

It is just how I think, how my brain works or does not work. Weather I am smart or not I look at it as brain damage on my part. When I think of lighting I have a million thoughts on lighting stuck in my brain. I was able to eliminate the UV issue by listening to you. I have lizards coming in three weeks if all goes well and am at the lighting stage in the process.

I learn best by having someone close to watch for a while. Anyone that knows me understands that I am not normal! LOL When I ask a question I try to give a glimpse into my brain by using examples before I ask the question just to make sure it is addressing the issue I am after.

If I had decided just to do my own thing I would ask no questions. I was considering MH but as you pointed out the gizmo that (times them out) breaks once in a while so I like your idea of a string of incandescent. The Lexan is just because I have to glass in the enclosures that the lizards will be in and wanted an opinion on it, just because I think it will work does not mean it will.

I did not nor do I mean to rub you wrong as I consider you the final authority on monitor lizards. The only reason that the Toids came up is Jobi brought it up and I had worked with them for around 10 years after achieving a level of success in the simpler applications within the arena I worked in and felt I could add something.

I am in the process of “Just Doing It” but it is nice if I can eliminate the “Do Overs” Like I told HH you would have no problem lining me out to keep me on track but you took the time to do it and for that I thank you. Guess I made a big deal out of nothing. I will try harder to simplify my questions so I might be like the individual to succeed with the Lacies.

I can handle correction and thank you for not going silent on me as I deserve it at times. I have made repeated attempts to contact you for a visit. Scott knows me well and if you ever question me or my motives a simple call to Scott should clear things up. Just remember back before it all started it was a conversation with Scott that turned the light on. (Heat um up and feed um up) Maybe it was in the water we drank in Agoura causing the problem we both have! HAHAHAHAHA
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"Life without risk is to merely exist."

FR Oct 12, 2007 12:10 AM

Boy am I glad your not normal(neither am I) normal seems to fail alot at this.

My problem is, I think you over qualified, hahahahahaha. Most are. Monitors thrive with simple. Much like birds, they have to have a nest. They like many bird species return to a nest(only its a burrow, or crevice, hollow and plural of all them) Most of everyday and night. These are the CENTER of their life. These are what is important.

The temps and lighting and all such are easy and can be done in a zillion ways.

Your major problem is freezing or near freezing with indos(they do not do that, AT ALL) I do not remember your saying what your actually going to get, I am assuming black waters. Anyway, If it were me, I would rather start at a non lethal time. Like during the summer and work into winter.

Your not going to have any experience heading into winter. You will not know their normal behavioral patterns, so it will be hard to pick out what is not normal.

I will say this, cold temps mean nothing to indo monitors. Their temperature program thinks its cold at 60F. They have no experience or programing below that. You may think, they should know better, because everyone thinks they are smart. They are not. That stuff is not in their computer. an example. You can provide them with nice warm areas and they will move over against a cold wall and die. While that is not normal, its not out of their ability either. They do not understand it will ever get below 60F. (that temp is more of an example then what they actually understand)

Over the years I learned more then I wanted to know about how monitors interpid cold. I also learned the difference between ones that can and ones that cannot.

Also, I never questioned your intentions, I never question that. I simply wonder about your direction and line of discussion.

I will say one more thing, if your getting waters, DO NOT GIVE THEM LARGE AMOUNTS OF WATER, just water bowls to drink from. Until next summer. They also do not understand water temps. They will simply drown in cool water. They simply get in, and forget to come up. End of that story. So until you understand what your winter will do. Eliminate that possibiliy. You can offer shallow water in the winter. Shallow enough to not allow drowning in their sleep.

See, to me, these are what is important, not toids and flicker fusion. Did I tell you, monitors can live relatively normally without any vision. The reason is simple. They are the only lizard equipped with a long forked tougue and jacobson organ like snakes(that do it in the dark) Monitors are fully capable of trailing and hunting in the dark. In fact, I have mentioned many times that eyesight is secondary in close situations. And cages are always close situations.

An example of some of their magic is. They can be deep down in burrows, but the moment you place food in the cage, they are up. This is one of those, heck if I know how they do it, but they surely DO. And typically me, that they do it, eliminates my need to understand how they do it. I merely enjoy and incorperate them doing it.

For instance, you gave an explination of how a falcon and hit prey in a fast stoop. I do not give a flying poop water how they do it, I just need to know they can do it. Cheers

Sighthunter Oct 12, 2007 01:13 AM

Yes I am trying to bring in a group of 7 or 8 captive hatched black water monitors and they would have drowned!!!.

I agree with the not bringing them in in winter guess I can keep them overseas until spring. I try to get my imported stuff in the spring for the reasons you mentioned.

You got me worried about a cold wall I am sure I would have suceeded in freezing half and drownding the other half.

Boy were you right about not asking the right questions. You did however give me a name for a future product????????????

TOIDS, HAHAHAHAHAHAHA, a dab l do ya!
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"Life without risk is to merely exist."

jobi Oct 12, 2007 03:09 PM

They will simply drown in cool water. They simply get in, and forget to come up. End of that story.

Id like to add to this; thru the years iv experienced many aspect of varanids husbandry, iv also read just about every documents available about them, the one area witch is never covered, in fact unless you come here or on V.net you most likely wont know about such things.

How varanids relate to lower temperatures?
FR has put it simple with the above statement, however theirs no need to be a genius to understand that indo monitors will also dig deep and shut all systems, that’s how nature programmed them, however nature provides Q’s that triggers the wake up call, if your cage don’t provide a temperature raise your monitor will most likely stay in his cool retreat longer then he should.

The problem is all about metabolism, sure a monitor can shut down, theirs no problem when it’s a matter of a few days, but should we allow this?
Maybe or maybe not, I really can’t answer this, it may sound simple enough but allowing a good temperature zone in a decent set up witch allows the proper functioning of metabolism is easier said then don. To cold is no better then to hot.

One thing I totally agree with is Robyn’s water monitors husbandry, when ever I obtain new imports I never allow them to go lower then 80f, this has drastically contributed to the acclimation of many indo imports, the same imports who died by the 100s back in the 80s and 90s.

Don’t cheer yet as those still die in the hands of pet shops or uneducated keepers.

Sighthunter Oct 12, 2007 07:05 PM

I feel this is good information. I observe the Fauna in the US and the wake up call here seems to be a good soaking warm rain. It seems to me if something has shut down due to a draught warm rain would do the trick? I would however hesitate to flood a burrow for fear of drowning them. So I quess I am back to square one.

Sounds like priority one is to let them adjust and keeping them in a safe environment (kinda like chicks in a brooder) until they get some size to them and their systems start to function.

I noticed the Collard lizards out here will shut down and disapear at about 75F even though there will be 90F on the ground in direct sun. They just do not like not being not able to get 112F or it sends some que to function in a different way, oops my brain is skewing once again, must.......stay.......on....track.......

Kinda like arm wrestling with yourself HAHAHAHA
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"Life without risk is to merely exist."

SHvar Oct 11, 2007 10:35 PM

To be falling and see it happen, lol.

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