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Ok well I know what anery means. It means a lack of the red pigment. Now in a snake like a rainbow that is a dark reddish brown I would expect a "TRUE" anery to be white and black and the yellow crecents to be seen but this is no what I see when I see "anerys". I end up seeing a less red but still red rainbow boa. Why is this???
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1.1 Motley het butter corns
0.1 Snow corn
0.1 Okeetee corn
1.0 Anery mutt corn
0.1 Stripe Ghost corn
0.1 Amelanistic corn het carmel
2.1 Colombian Redtails
1.0 Hypo Colombian redtail
1.0 Brazilian Rainbow Boa
1.0 Anery Kenyan sand boa
0.1 Normal Kenyan sand boa

yeah, they look like that as babies, but it looks like they turn brown as they grow up and brown definatly has red in it. good post, I have wondered this myself.

>>Ok well I know what anery means. It means a lack of the red pigment. Now in a snake like a rainbow that is a dark reddish brown I would expect a "TRUE" anery to be white and black and the yellow crecents to be seen but this is no what I see when I see "anerys". I end up seeing a less red but still red rainbow boa. Why is this???
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>>1.1 Motley het butter corns
>>0.1 Snow corn
>>0.1 Okeetee corn
>>1.0 Anery mutt corn
>>0.1 Stripe Ghost corn
>>0.1 Amelanistic corn het carmel
>>2.1 Colombian Redtails
>>1.0 Hypo Colombian redtail
>>1.0 Brazilian Rainbow Boa
>>1.0 Anery Kenyan sand boa
>>0.1 Normal Kenyan sand boa
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-Jasmine

1.4 Brazilian Rainbow Boas
1.0 Peruvian Rainbow Boa

IMO,

The term anery seems to be somewhat misrepresented in BRB's. Yes true anerythrism is the absence of red pigmentation. We're most used to having it identified in snakes with only a few colors like BCI for example, really only three colors there, red, black and yellow (four if you include white).

I believe the trait was named by looking at offspring which look like they are missing red altogether. I don't know if there are more pigments in BRB's (does make sense since they are so vivid) or if it's more like they can produce the pigment but can't "use" (the correct term is escaping me...ugh) or express it, maybe incompletely able to use/express it is a better description?
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Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count:
24.36 BRB
19.19 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

Bingo. I brought this issue up a few months ago.

I agree with Dave, the term is not being used accurately
for BRB's. I'm in no way saying anyone is/was being dishonest when using that description, but now that it's well known what these snakes look like when they get older (ie, brownish/red), I would hope that another term besides "anerythristic" will be used soon to describe these type of snakes. Are they genetically very interesting? Absolutely. Are they cool snakes? Sure. Are they rare? Of course. Are they "anerythristic." No, by definition they are not, and quite frankly, it could be misleading to a buyer. Anyway, that's my rant for the day.

Maybe we can all propose a new term for these snakes. "Hypoerythristic"? "Ontoerythristic"?

>>Ok well I know what anery means. It means a lack of the red pigment. Now in a snake like a rainbow that is a dark reddish brown I would expect a "TRUE" anery to be white and black and the yellow crecents to be seen but this is no what I see when I see "anerys". I end up seeing a less red but still red rainbow boa. Why is this???
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Thanks,
Ed

Maybe. No one has been working with this gene long enough to be an expert but I think the term anery should stick for now. Here's why;

I've seen several adult and juvie anerys and none of them were red. In fact, all have been distinctly different from any "normal" brazilian I've seen. True, the adults I've seen were brown. But, melanin is brown. Highly concentrated patches of melanin appear black. I think it's still safe to say that anery BRBs do not appear to be producing erythrin.

Just like normal BRBs, anerys tend to accumulate more melanin in their scales as they mature. This is why they're turning brown.

A lot of this will be proven over the next several years and I might possibly be singing a different tune. For now though, I think "anery" is appropriate and not misleading.
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Mike Lockwood
www.tooscaley.com

Good post, Mike, I was hoping you would respond. But what I find confusing is that brown, at least by the definitions I've seen, can only be made if red is present. So if melanin has a red component, then I guess the term anery would technically be correct.

Maybe I should get some crayons/paint and start mixing colors...

>>Maybe. No one has been working with this gene long enough to be an expert but I think the term anery should stick for now. Here's why;
>>
>>I've seen several adult and juvie anerys and none of them were red. In fact, all have been distinctly different from any "normal" brazilian I've seen. True, the adults I've seen were brown. But, melanin is brown. Highly concentrated patches of melanin appear black. I think it's still safe to say that anery BRBs do not appear to be producing erythrin.
>>
>>Just like normal BRBs, anerys tend to accumulate more melanin in their scales as they mature. This is why they're turning brown.
>>
>>A lot of this will be proven over the next several years and I might possibly be singing a different tune. For now though, I think "anery" is appropriate and not misleading.
>>-----
>>Mike Lockwood
>>www.tooscaley.com
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Thanks,
Ed

Hmmm... you make a good point Mike. I forgot that melanin is actually brown and not black. I learned this when I got into California Kingsnakes. Their dark patches range from a chocolate brown to black, and no Cal King has any red in it. Thanks for the reminder, and this does convince me that they should still be called Anery. At least until someone finds good evidence otherwise.
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Aubrey Ross

©
www.SlipstreamSerpents.com

Brown doesn't need to contain red. Yellow and black pigment can produce a shade of brown. But animal colors don't work like art class color theory or the color wheel.

color in animals are not always simple to figure out. YOu can have no red pigment produced (ie, anery) but still see reddish colors. This doesn't mean the animal can't be anery, it just means there may be more than one way for red coloration to appear. Rainbow boas are very iridescent...light is refracted in a rainbow sheen all over the snake. this will of course include 'reds'.

Snakes can have multiple layers of color..a recessive trait may affect one layer only, but a secondary layer may produce the same color the other layer has suppressed.

kind of confusing but the more I read about genetics for various snakes and reptiles, the more complex it becomes. For instance. Corn snakes have 3 types of anery. Each acts differently and are non compatible to each other. If you breed anery type 1 snake to an anery type 2, you will get normals with hets of one or the other. THis is because the recessive genes are all on the same spot genetically but act slightly different, though all repress red pigment.

Only many years of breeding BRB's will decipher their particular traits genetically. Corn snakes have been around for half a century (give or take a decade) and thus, have been selectively bred extensively...and still new things are being discovered. (the third anery is a recent discovery).
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PHLdyPayne

Thanks, I'll concede the point. Regardless of whether
the brown in melanin contains red or not, after doing a little
more research, I can't dispute that melanophores (melanin) can have brown pigment. That's really the issue I had to resolve.
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Thanks,
Ed

Just like in anery type I bci they have anerys that are only silver and black and others contain brownish and bits of orange in the worst examples but remember there is always great examples and poor examples.

Great example of anery

and the ones that contain bits or orange on the tail is a poor example. Now in anery brb's they turn shades of brown whether it is dark or light as of today existing ones. The lighter the better for color of course and here is Seib's female used without permission sorry Mike

you would have to say that is great color for an anery female right?

Now all that talk about T-pos albino bci and the people say they are beautiful but appear to have black surrounding the tail blotches but I believe they are actually either purple or brown but I can't remember sorry but what about the nic albino as opposed to the other bci t-pos. Granted I never did see t-pos from the Barkers, Big Mike or anything but what about the nics? The others tend to lose color into adulthood but not nics. But I know its not fair to compare those two but the t-pos nic and caramel albino argentine look similar and are both dark in the normal form so I prolly should have compared those but those are hot too. Here is a couple of pics for all the rambling but I love the t-pos nics

>> Now in anery brb's they turn shades of brown whether it is >>dark or light as of today existing ones. The lighter the better >>for color of course and here is Seib's female used without >>permission sorry Mike
>>
>>you would have to say that is great color for an anery female right?
>>

Hard to say from the picture, and I need to stop judging by pics
anyway. Gets me in trouble. Obviously the white crescents are awesome. I know it's probably heresy to say this, but in all honesty, I guess I'm not big on the BRB morphs. "Normal" BRB's are so beautiful and colorful. Personally I'd rather have a nice normal BRB with all the nice oranges, reds, contrasting blacks, etc. But that's just me, I know I'm probably in the minority.
And I really do hope it all works out well for guys like Mike and Dave, I know they are investing a lot in their projects.

I'll need about a week to comment on what you said below. :0
But like BRB anery's, with the T-pos albino BCI, maybe it's difficult to tell colors from pictures. (ie, purple looks
like black.)

Thanks again for the pics, gotta go do some yardwork.

>>Now all that talk about T-pos albino bci and the people say they are beautiful but appear to have black surrounding the tail blotches but I believe they are actually either purple or brown but I can't remember sorry but what about the nic albino as opposed to the other bci t-pos. Granted I never did see t-pos from the Barkers, Big Mike or anything but what about the nics? The others tend to lose color into adulthood but not nics. But I know its not fair to compare those two but the t-pos nic and caramel albino argentine look similar and are both dark in the normal form so I prolly should have compared those but those are hot too. Here is a couple of pics for all the rambling but I love the t-pos nics
>>
>>
>>

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Thanks,
Ed

It's not heresy to like the 'normal' range of colors for BRB. My personal favorites are high contrast(saddle vs body color) high orange normals followed by high contrast high red's.

That being said Mike definitely converted me in terms of the hypo morph and thereby the potential of the anery's when I saw his high red/orange hypo at the sacramento show. That BRB was absolutely smoking! It's just evidence of how much difference there is between the original occurance of a morph and the end result of the morph after it has been selectively bred a few generations.

Not that you should/need to like BRB morphs but you may be surprised once we see the end result appearances.

Sean.

I though on this forum it might be heresy.

I actually do like the hypos, at least from the pics I've seen. They are pretty snakes. And I have no doubt they are even prettier in person, and I would be happy to own one. I guess taking the red/orange out of a Brazilian "rainbow" boa, however, just doesn't personally appeal to me.

But of course you may be right. Maybe in 10 years I'll be plopping down some big bucks for a high yellow snow BRB.

>>It's not heresy to like the 'normal' range of colors for BRB. My personal favorites are high contrast(saddle vs body color) high orange normals followed by high contrast high red's.
>>
>>That being said Mike definitely converted me in terms of the hypo morph and thereby the potential of the anery's when I saw his high red/orange hypo at the sacramento show. That BRB was absolutely smoking! It's just evidence of how much difference there is between the original occurance of a morph and the end result of the morph after it has been selectively bred a few generations.
>>
>>Not that you should/need to like BRB morphs but you may be surprised once we see the end result appearances.
>>
>>Sean.
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Thanks,
Ed

I agree that anery is apropriate at least until more is known but I do hope that everyone who buys one realizes before they buy it that the adult colors are not black/gray/white.

The thing that puzzles me about the anery color change is that from what I've seen personally and looked up the browns are not a color that 'comes in' in adulthood. With the possible exception of the saddles it seems like in normals the brown stays roughly the same color in adults as it was in babies. The main difference seems to be an increase in orange or red pigment as the animal grows.

I know that this holds to a degree with peoples pro-"anery" arguement that the anery's just never get that developement of red pigment. This makes sense to me except for the fact that the anery babies are not brown that never colors up. Instead they go from silver/gray and black with, at least some of the time, tan/brown tints to a all brown tones adult.

Namely I guess what puzzles me is where the "black" melanin goes and why the "brown" melanin phases in. I am not questioning the melanin being brown thing, I just don't know whether the black versus brown is being caused by concentration, variety(if there are multi types of melanin), or other biological factors. I am a very very far cry from expert or even proficient in these biological processes and am just inquiring about what I do not understand and find surprising.

Does anyone have a hypothesis as to why the anery babies are not brown as well? Or if there might be a way to cause/have that baby "black" expression of melanin be expressed in adults?

Sean.