Reptile & Amphibian Forums

So Dizzy (1236g BP) developed the beginnings of an RI (wheezing here and there, some bubbles in her mouth). I called my vet, they gave me pre-drawn 0.3mL syringes to be given every 5 days for 25 days. Dizzy got 2 doses (10 days) and I found her dead last night 2 days after her last dose. Were the doses not enough? Was she supposed to be getting daily doses and not this long treatment? I'm really pissed off that she died and didn't even get that bad before she did. Now I'm freaking out because my het clown developed an RI too and I started treating her with the 3 remaining syringes (she's exactly the same weight, only about 10 grams different). She's gotten one dose so far and now she's getting worse.

They're in 41qt tubs, heat cable underneath the warm end kept at 90, cool side is room temp which is 78 during the day and 75 at night (fluctuates with sunlight -- house is kept cool). Is the cool side just too cool? I've already upped it with a room heater to try to save them from any further illness. They've done fine with this temp for the past 12 months since I moved back to Wisconsin -- can't figure out why the sudden illness (except for with the het clown, I think she got sick from being 3 days in a box with DHL -- long obnoxious story).

I need info -- vet was closed today (always on Wed/Thur). Will be calling them again tomorrow to see if we can do a different treatment for the het clown. Until then -- thoughts? Suggestions? Experiences treating RI?
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~* Jen *~

Pink Lady Constrictors

This is probably the dumbest question on Earth, but could this in any way be related to the fact that my daughter and I got some horribly nasty virus that has been giving us temps of 103-104, chills, body aches, and headaches? I know there aren't many things that are zoonotic (other than salmonella, but we're not throwing up [out either end]). Our doctors said there's not much they can do, we have to ride it out. I'm just frustrated that basically the whole house seems sick. Oi.
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~* Jen *~

Pink Lady Constrictors

Hey Jen, firstly sorry for the loss. Now for the Het clown, I would raise the temp in the tubs. Since most sick snakes seem to always seek out the cooler areas in their enclosure (Why?! who knows). I also heard that if you add a branch in the enclosure it can help as well, I have never tried it personally but it might work. Move the snake into an enclosure that is much taller than the snake. Put something in the cage (branch, etc..) for the snake to climb on. The reason behind this is that snakes don't really have a cough mechanism like we do so by giving the snake ample room to move its body it will be able to let some of the "snot" either drain out or fall back into the lung. Either way it's keeping the fluids out of the mouth so the snake can breath. Good luck

Hi Jen. I think I may be able to help. I swear by Naxcel(ceftiofur sodium). It is a true wonder drug. Ask your vet tomorrow for some. It is easy to mix and inject as well (sub-Q). I have seen it save reptiles that you were swear were dead. I will never use Batryl again. Your vet should have the dosage cc per gram there for you. It will knock it out in just a few days. You will be glad you did...
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Hey Jay,
Good to see you getting on here.
Did you get those tree boas sold.
The calico spot female was looking good in the photos you posted. I'm glad they went to a good home...with you.
And I hope you found a good home for them too.
Nice to see you giving decent advice here too.
I liked that odd unproven ball you posted earlier!!!
Fun stuff.

Ahh...now for Jen.
Jen,
RI problems sure are a pain.
And everyone seems to have a solution that they swear by.
Personally, I LOVE Cipro!
It has a low molecular weight and moves across cell membranes efficently. Best of all, it is an oral administration.
So no stress from injection sites.
Baytril can burn...I hate injection scars....and I do not like to see a snake in any pain....although there is oral baytril...it has other problems....and just does not work as nicely as Cipro....in my opinion.
With cipro you do not need to worry about the medication crystalizing in the nephretic tubules in the glomerulus of the kidneys. So NO renal failure from the medication.

(Amakacin can have these problems...and must be administered as an injectable in the first third of the body)
Other drugs in this family can have similar problems (including baytril.)
If you use any medication be certain to keep your animals well hydrated. It helps to flush the system...do that you have less chance of renal problems.

This is not a real concern with Cipro.

I have also used oral ceflex...(cefalexin)it works well.
But cipro is a more broad spectrum antibiotic.
I have never seen anything work better.
It is usually offered in pill form.
You must weight the snake and get a ml/kg dosage from your vet.
The crushed tablet is mixed with distiled water and given as an orally. Most vets will recommend one treatment every 3rd day. It really works wonders!
Give you local reptile vet a call and see if they can help you with a prescription.
And remember, whatever antibiotic you decide to use...be sure to continue using it for the entire length of time that your Reptile Vet recommends....even if the symptoms disappear quickly.
If you stop giving the antibiotic too early you will have taught the bacteria...(often gram negative) to become resistant to the medication. This will make treatment much more difficult....and we do not need any more "super resistant bacteria" out there.
Good luck with your snake.
Harlin Wall - WALL TO WALL REPTILES!
970-245-7611

Oh Jen....
I am sorry.
I just re-read the original post.
I did not realize that you had already lost the snake.
Hopefully the information provided by all of us might help you to treat some other snakes the future.
Again, sorry for your loss.
Harlin Wall - WALL TO WALL REPTILES!
970-245-7611

I lost Dizzy, but the het clown is still in bad condition. I don't want to lose her because I just bought her clown boyfriend and they were my main project this year. Dizzy was one of my special girls, she had intense gold eyes and her gold coloration I swear looked like old gold buillion from spain. Not rich gold like most "high gold" ball pythons but deep metallic gold. This is her in the sun:

The problem is, we don't have any reptile vets nearby. My long-time vet's wife used to treat snakes, but no longer does. I called every vet I could find in Madison, none will treat reptiles except the UW Vet School -- but they are not only extremely hard to get to downtown (not to mention with a young child), but they require me to bring the snake(s) in at $65 per animal exam fee, then require a mucous swab at another $35, then the cost of antibiotics. They are only open for clinicals 2 days per week and trying to work that in with my job is damn hard. The only reason my vet here in Cross Plains will treat my collection is because his vet tech used to keep burms and they collaborate on trying to help me when needed, and that is why I've been trusting them thus far. They're doing a great job. I'm not sure if maybe Dizzy needed a more aggressive treatment or...

Right now I'm just trying to save my het clown and prevent anyone else from getting sick. I'm printing out all the suggestions I get here and bringing them to my vet tomorrow to see what we can work out. I want to bring the het clown with me but I'm afraid it'll make her worse because it's so cool outside -- I'm worried about the transport from the house to the car and the car to the clinic.
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~* Jen *~

Pink Lady Constrictors

Hi Harlan, wasnt sure if you remembered me. Nice to see you on here as well. Nothing yet, hate even selling them but health is lousy and thanks for the kind words. I've mostly lurked here for a while, just try to dodge any drama its not my thing. Cipro is an excellent choice as well. As far as scars I am yet to see any from Naxcel administered sub-q. Regardless get that heat up, Id also like to suggest getting it dry as well for the time being. Your getting good advice here, like they say there is more than one way to skin a cat. Im just not a batryl fan in any way. I think Harlan and I discussed that one night for a while. I have since then gotten the same thing from alot of others. Good luck Jen
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It is good to hear that you don't have scarring problems with the Naxel. I have never used that product...but it's always nice to have new and promising med, to add to the arsenal!

Bumping the temps up and drying the ambient air out a little sounds like the right thing to do. Just make sure you keep the snake hydrated before and while you are using any medication.

Don't worry too much about the short period of time you are transporting it from the house to the car....or the car to the clinic. It is more important that you get the snake cultured and get it started on a treatment regimen.

Besides, you can alwats use a styro-insulated shipping box with a heat pack to ease your concerns about the low temps.
The main thing is that you get the snake back on the road to recovery...the sooner the better. Waiting it out is NOT a good idea. The winter temps are only getting cooler.
Good luck Jen.

Jay,
Yep, I certainly remember you.
It's hard to forget a knowledgable and friendly customer!
You are a pleasure to work with. I
Sorry to hear your health is not the best.
Hope things improve for you.
As for the drama....ha ha.
Yeah, sometimes it gets a little silly.
But that's half the fun!
Best wishes on all your projects.
Feel free to give me a call anytime.
Take care,
Harlin Wall - WALL TO WALL REPTILES!
970-245-7611

Hello Jen

I manage a large reptile shop and we house hundreds of ball pythons. I also breed ball pythons in my home and have found that ball pythons can get a respiratory infection quite easily. I believe that it is brought on by stress caused by inadequate temps in their environment. Too high, too low, and the snake is not comfortable. I use Baytril (mostly becuse other drugs are harder to find) with every other day injections for 5 treatments. Some animals can last for a year or more with this infection where some pass very quickly.

I don't think that there was anything else you could have done differently

I would place the het on paper towels or newspaper. Shavings in their slimmy mouth just adds more stress.

I am not a doctor even though I play one at work

David

Thanks David. She's already on unprinted newspaper, it's all I use. It helps me spot things like mucous if they don't happen to be wheezing at the moment, which is how I caught Dizzy at first. I upped both the warm side by 2 degrees and the room temp with a heater. I also turned off the room humidifer and let it drop to the normal 45% it stays at without it (it stays at 55% with it on).

These guys are my first RI's and I'm worried to death. Mainly about it spreading so the Novalsan and hand sanitizer has been used in abundance lately.
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~* Jen *~

Pink Lady Constrictors

I'm very sorry you lost your snake, Jen. I would suspect your temps are way too low and their immune systems couldn't do it anymore.

DO NOT LOWER THE HUMIDITY! They do not have a diaphragm and therefore cannot cough. Lowering the humidity will just cause them to suffocate in their own fluids.

Up your temps to at least 95 warm side 85 cool side, humidity to 65-70%. It acts as a humidifier, breaking up the junk in their lungs. My temps are always 95/85 24/7, they don't drop at night, and the only RI's I've had to deal with are with snakes that came from either a breeder and he got stressed in shipping, or from a pet store where she was exposed to WC snakes. I've only had two, and am still treating one now(since 9/1)

Baytril needs to be given IM, every 48 hours. I would get a culture done by your vet and make sure the bacteria is susceptible to Baytril. Every 5 days was just not often enough to let the antibiotic get up to working concentration. The antibiotics also need to be given for more than one week. My vet recommends a month just to make sure the infection is fully gone. She also recommends nebulizing the snake to help break up the mucous in their lungs. It helps immensely and you can see the relief the snake is feeling.

I've used Baytril for awhile and have no problems with it. I even use the 100mg/ml stuff(yes, on TINY Ball Pythons) and do not get burns/scars on the snakes. Draw up the Baytril, draw up another 0.2ml or so of saline, and inject. No burns, nadda. If you're getting burns, you're not doing it correctly. You have to dilute the medication. Baytril is also easy on their kidneys compared to alot of other antibiotics. Just soaking them every other day for an hour or so in a hot, humid tub keeps them hydrated and the fluids running through them.

I'm having to use Trimethoprim sulfamethoxazole on a 140g female Ball because after the two cultures the lab ran, they found a bacteria that was resistant to most every antibiotic..With the exception of marbofloxacin(who can afford that??!), Ticarcillin(human drug and expensive) and Trimethoprim(human drug but not expensive). So we went with the oral Trimethoprim and she's slowly recovering.
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-Becky Brown, RVT-
1.0 Lemon Pastel Classic Jungle(NERD)
1.0 Black Pastel
2.13 Normals
1.0 NERD Yellow/Green Hypo
1.1 Spiders(BHB)
1.1 Yellowbellies(BHB)
1.0 100% Het Pied Classic Jungle(Don Kaye)
0.1 50% Poss. Het Pied(Gary Kettring)
0.1 Classic Jungle
1.0 66% Poss Het Ax Genetic Granite(VPI)
18 07 Hatchlings

WOW...I'm surprised you haven't had more problems. 95/85 is far too warm for a BP, IMO. In 15 years, I ahven't had even 1 RI. I shoot for about 88 max on the warm end, lower for neonates. In the wild, a BP would almost NEVER see a temperature of 95 degrees...

Nope, no problems. Everyone eats every week, no fasting even during winter, they thermoregulate regularly from the warm side to the cool side, shed normally, and grow very well. I haven't had RI's in any of my original collection, just two snakes that came from two different places(one got stressed in shipping, and the other is a pet store rescue where she was exposed to some very bad bacteria and it's taken over a month to find out what antibiotics she needs to be on).

Some people have good luck keeping them cool. Myself, I don't want to risk anything by reducing their immune system's ability to fight off illness. I feel that 75 for the cool side is way too cool, and obviously Jen is having a problem with it too since her Het Clown has an RI. Now, I'm not saying you should go over 95 unless a snake is sick, but 95 is perfectly safe and I can bet you it gets very hot inside a termite mound during the summer(termites make heat, plus the sun). It's gotta be a sauna in there.

I keep an eye on every one of my snakes. If they start showing me that they don't like the heat, are staying on the cool side constantly, soaking in their bowls, bowl wrapping, etc, then I'll bump it down. But until then, they'll stay at 95/85. If it ain't broke, don't fix it
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-Becky Brown, RVT-
1.0 Lemon Pastel Classic Jungle(NERD)
1.0 Black Pastel
2.13 Normals
1.0 NERD Yellow/Green Hypo
1.1 Spiders(BHB)
1.1 Yellowbellies(BHB)
1.0 100% Het Pied Classic Jungle(Don Kaye)
0.1 50% Poss. Het Pied(Gary Kettring)
0.1 Classic Jungle
1.0 66% Poss Het Ax Genetic Granite(VPI)
18 07 Hatchlings

I hear ya, and I think there is certainly more than one way to skin a cat successfully. Just not sure I agree that lower temps make a snake succeptable to RI...LIke I said, 15 years, LOTS of snakes, and my set-up motto has pretty much been, if I can keep the warm end at 86-88, the set-up is fine...

I have recently moved my snake outside to a secondary building on my property, and I haven't bothered to set up my A/C since its so close to winter. I have noticed on the days where the room temps get in the high 80s range, nearly every snake is up in the front of their bin, away from the heat tape and most are sitting on or in their bowls.

Sure, temps below 75 or so for an extended period of time are likely to stress the snake and weaken their immuinity, but thats not going to happen if the temps are in the 80s constantly. In fact, you could argue that high temps in the mid 90s are just as stressfull as low temps...

I have actually had snakes refuse to eat on hotter days since the move...

I keep all my warmspots at 95 Degrees, even when I was keeping Mandarin and other cool climate Ratsnakes. They use it when they need it, and it is always available.

I've kept them at 90/78 with a slight drop at night with no problems ever since I started keeping them (2004). This is the first time I've ever had any RI problems. The het clown probably has hers because she was shipped via DHL and got lost for 3 days in 50-degree weather until they found her. I had the long drama posted on here but it was removed.

I need a damn herp vet.
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~* Jen *~

Pink Lady Constrictors

oops...
Perhaps I should have phrased that differently.
Batril "STINGS" rather than burns....if you didn't dilute the medication....that probably would cause actual "burns"!?!?!
Obviously you are correct that the batril needs to be diluted!
But anyone who has seen a snake injected with baytril knows that it was uncomfortable for the animal. With Cipro you do not need to inject anything at all. Since it is orally administered.
Scars can and do occur with baytril ....usually in larger snakes....as they require a larger dose. We noted this problem in an albino blood....usually shows more in animals with lighter pigmentation.
Although I do keep bloods...this was someone else's python at the local vet's office....as well as a few other times.
I often assist with reptiles down at the vet's office. (espically for venomous reptiles)....they REALLY seem to appreciate having someone with "HOTS" experience assisting. That Vet office is owned by two doctors.
I used to work for one of the owners' of that Vet Hospital.
Nice to have friends in the right places.
(also saw these problems with some normal blood pythons).... again some other keeper's bloods.

Good info from Becky about the soaking for proper hydration...and also about the nebulizer.

Raising or lowering the humidity often depends on the current cage conditions. Too low or too high of humidity can exacerbate the problems. (The 65-70 % humidity) level that Becky also gave was also some great information!

However, Snakes CAN cough.
They have positive respiration. (no diaphram)...while mammals have negative respiration (with a diaphram which pulls air into the lungs). And we also use more muscles than just the diaphram to cough.
Coughing is a muscular reaction.
Snakes can "cough" and "sneeze"...using other muscles.
But I sure hate to see it go that far...
Getting the culture results back from your Vet will be the best info.
Then you will know what the bacteria are, and you will have a better idea of what they are sensitive to.
That will help your vet decide the best meds to choose.
Although Baytril will work....cipro is more broad spectrum and has a better chance of treating bacteria that may already be resistant to baytril or other antibiotics.

Becky,
I have had pretty good results with Ticar for treating other types of infections. And I was able to obtain it fairly cheaply using a vet perscription...and a generic manufacturer's brand name. Hope that helps a little with the cost factor.
Cirpo also started as a Human med....and is still used as such.
But, it is now also used in Vet. medicine with great results!
(also much cheaper now from the Vet!!!)

Everyone posting here recently is sharing some great information Jen!
Hopefully this will help you out of the woods.
Good luck
Your friend,
Harlin Wall - WALL TO WALL REPTILES!
970-245-7611

You should have seen this culture.. It was ridiculous. Just going down the line of antibiotics, it just said "Resistant.. Resistant.. Resistant..Resistant.. Resistant.. Intermediate.. Resistant.. Resistant.. Susceptible.. Resistant.. Major pain in the rear, lemme tell you. It's a gram negative non-fermenter that is usually only found in cystic fibrosis patients. It's very rare and is only spread via soil and water

This poor snake has gone through Baytril injections since 9/1, we increased the dose from 0.01ml to 0.03ml and added nebulized Amikacin to the regimen. She wasn't getting worse, but she wasn't getting better. This is a 140g Ball, 4-5 months old, I'm talking about too.. She hasn't eaten since the last week of August either.. At least she's maintaining her weight though.

Good to know about the Ticarcillin. I doubt I'll ever have a problem like this one again, but you never know. I'm only 22! Haha. If they had made the Trimethoprim in an injectable, believe me, I would have gotten it(it's discontinued). Alot of keepers have never had good luck with oral antibiotics in Ball Pythons, they just don't absorb well. Good to know that the Ciprofloxacin is absorbed ok. I'm glad my mother's a nurse and can get me samples
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-Becky Brown, RVT-
1.0 Lemon Pastel Classic Jungle(NERD)
1.0 Black Pastel
2.13 Normals
1.0 NERD Yellow/Green Hypo
1.1 Spiders(BHB)
1.1 Yellowbellies(BHB)
1.0 100% Het Pied Classic Jungle(Don Kaye)
0.1 50% Poss. Het Pied(Gary Kettring)
0.1 Classic Jungle
1.0 66% Poss Het Ax Genetic Granite(VPI)
18 07 Hatchlings

Hey Becky,
Funny thing...my Mom is an RN as well!!!
Gotta love the MOMS!

I really like using the nebulizer to admin. meds.
We use an infant incubator and just run the tube into the top.
It keeps the temps/humidity correct and allows the snake to sit comfortably in it's temporary "cage" while being treated.
It's like they don't even know they are getting a treatment!
Works wonders.
Nice chatting with you.
Take care.
Your friend,
Harlin Wall - WALL TO WALL REPTILES!
970-245-7611

(for a 22 yr old....I can tell you have done your share of reading in conjunction with keeping....kudos on that! Staying current will certainly help anyone's future in keeping reptiles.)
See ya.

I know many many of you keepers with moderate to large collections keep your own medications on hand and treat your animals yourselves -- which I've been working on doing with certain things as needed. I have the Klingenberg books and have other things like panacur, flagyl, albon, tylan...but no other antibiotics. Where are you guys able to buy Baytril from to keep on hand?
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~* Jen *~

Pink Lady Constrictors

Hey,

Jen,

I believe Batryl is used only for internal parasites such as worms and flukes, and has no value toward microrganisms.

An antibiotic (I can't remember the name) is what you need. Batryl may be antibiotic- but it's not targeted toward the respiratory infection buggers.

Raise the temps, keep everybody else isolated, antibacterial gel between handlings, and get better yourself!

Cuzin Steve

I think you're confused. Baytril(enrofloxacin) is a broad-spectrum fluoroquinolone. It works with mostly everything, mostly bacterial respiratory infections.
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-Becky Brown, RVT-
1.0 Lemon Pastel Classic Jungle(NERD)
1.0 Black Pastel
2.13 Normals
1.0 NERD Yellow/Green Hypo
1.1 Spiders(BHB)
1.1 Yellowbellies(BHB)
1.0 100% Het Pied Classic Jungle(Don Kaye)
0.1 50% Poss. Het Pied(Gary Kettring)
0.1 Classic Jungle
1.0 66% Poss Het Ax Genetic Granite(VPI)
18 07 Hatchlings

Hey,

Thanks for clearing that up- I was thinking I had used Batryl and it didn't work for an RI, and I switched to something else...maybe it's Pancur I'm thinking of....

Good vets are hard to find!

Steve Harrison

Jen Sorry for your loss. I hope the het clown recovers quickly for you.

Yes, they really are few and far between. Sometimes you just get an utter twit who doesn't know which end of the snake is the head! My vet works for a veterinary technology program that I went through, and she's the only experienced exotics vet in town. The other Vet charges WAY too much and really has no clue. Mine hasn't failed me yet. She's even done surgeries on my dwarf rat(twice), so if I can trust her with tiny, 30g rats, then I'll trust her with my snakes.
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-Becky Brown, RVT-
1.0 Lemon Pastel Classic Jungle(NERD)
1.0 Black Pastel
2.13 Normals
1.0 NERD Yellow/Green Hypo
1.1 Spiders(BHB)
1.1 Yellowbellies(BHB)
1.0 100% Het Pied Classic Jungle(Don Kaye)
0.1 50% Poss. Het Pied(Gary Kettring)
0.1 Classic Jungle
1.0 66% Poss Het Ax Genetic Granite(VPI)
18 07 Hatchlings

Hey Steve,
I'm glad Becky caught that one.

Yep Baytril is an antibiotic int the "enroflox family" of drugs.
Other drugs like Amakacin and Genacin are also in this group.

While Panacur is an anti-parasitic med....used for worms.

Hope that clears it up a little.

Take care Steve.

Harlin Wall - WALL TO WALL REPTILES!
970-245-7611

I used cefazolin on my burmese, only to find out later that it was IBD.It is a broad spectrum antibiotic, and the dosage chart is on line.
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1.0 albino Speckled king
0.1 speckled king
0.1 desert cali king
1.1 ball python
65 common rats
25 african soft hair rats
100 mice
7 degus
2.0.6 girbils
1.0 blue and gold macaw
1.1 orange wing amazons
0.1 tin african grey
1.0 sugar glider
.1 beagle
1.0 pink toe tarantula
1.1 borneo bloods (comming soon)
0.1 hell spouse
3.2 children (kids)

Jen,

Sorry to hear about your girl Dizzy - that sucks.

I am no expert, not by a long shot on this topic, but I would think you would want to switch meds if this strain of R.I. is maybe resistive to Baytril? Just a thought... Good luck and keep us posted.

~Alan

It's not that it's resistant to the Baytril, it's that when Baytril is only given every 5 days, it doesn't have a chance to work. When given every other day, it will work within the first 2-3 shots. If the bacteria is resistant, then it won't work within that time frame. Even goofy Melissa Kaplan's site says to give it every other day, as does every medication formulary I have seen. I don't know if her vet read it wrong or what, but it was very unfortunate that it lead to her snake's demise.. Poor thing.

Last thing, lowering the humidity is an old school trick. It only masks symptoms by drying the snake out to where you can't hear the popping/wheezing. You surely don't dehumidify your room if your child has a bad cold, do you? No, of course not. You get out the Vick's humidifier and the chest decongestants. You want to break the stuff in the lungs up so it's easier to get out. Upping the temps and humidity helps the immune system to be able to fight off infection and use the antibiotics to their full potential.

Jen, if you have a humidifier, nebulizer or just a closed plastic tub(put some water and paper towels in, and put it directly over a warm heat source to create a sauna effect), use that. It will help him breathe alot better and he will recover faster.
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-Becky Brown, RVT-
1.0 Lemon Pastel Classic Jungle(NERD)
1.0 Black Pastel
2.13 Normals
1.0 NERD Yellow/Green Hypo
1.1 Spiders(BHB)
1.1 Yellowbellies(BHB)
1.0 100% Het Pied Classic Jungle(Don Kaye)
0.1 50% Poss. Het Pied(Gary Kettring)
0.1 Classic Jungle
1.0 66% Poss Het Ax Genetic Granite(VPI)
18 07 Hatchlings

Yes, I remember you posted on this subject previously. Could she use a childs nebulizer to break the congestion up? If she doesnt have one already, I wonder if she could rent a nebulizer from a medical supply store?

Jen, where on the snake are you giving the injections? I forget, because I've never had to medicate any of mine, but it was something about only giving the injection in the first half of the snakes body, otherwise it can damage the kidneys (I think it is called renal-portal syndrome - but again, I'm just lcinging onto a vague memory).

Well, I learned that first-third rule last night. My vet said to give them IM and said anywhere on the body was fine as long as I didn't do it in the same spot every time. I had been giving them toward her back end as it was easier without having her react. That's just freaking great...
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~* Jen *~

Pink Lady Constrictors

It might be time to find a new vet, hun.. He doesn't seem very up-to-date on treating reptiles.

But yeah, first third of the body, switch sides each time so the muscle doesn't become irritated and sore.
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-Becky Brown, RVT-
1.0 Lemon Pastel Classic Jungle(NERD)
1.0 Black Pastel
2.13 Normals
1.0 NERD Yellow/Green Hypo
1.1 Spiders(BHB)
1.1 Yellowbellies(BHB)
1.0 100% Het Pied Classic Jungle(Don Kaye)
0.1 50% Poss. Het Pied(Gary Kettring)
0.1 Classic Jungle
1.0 66% Poss Het Ax Genetic Granite(VPI)
18 07 Hatchlings

He isn't a herp vet, he just offered to treat them because there aren't any local herp vets that I can get to without trying to get downtown to the UW Vet School and paying $200 per visit. He can do cultures though, that's a no-brainer that any vet should be able to do (well, his techs do it), so she's scheduled to go in this afternoon.
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~* Jen *~

Pink Lady Constrictors

Jen,
You might just try calling Roger Klingenberg.
See if he can do a phone consultation with you/your local vet.
Perhaps he can work with one of your local Vets....even if there are no "Reptile Vets" in you area...maybe Roger can help.
I got lucky we just have some good Vets here in Colorado... like Dr. K for instance.
................................................................

As for keeping meds on hand....
We used to get a lot of great herp meds from Mexico.
You know the drill....your out on a West Texas herping trip and you drop over the border to pick up some meds in Acuna....or where ever.
As long as you claimed all the meds at the border...no problems.

But that was then....and it don't work like that anymore!

American pharmaceutical manufacturers have decided that they do not want American consumers to be able to purchase their meds MUCH cheaper (and easier) in foreign countries.
So now there are more strict laws in place....and they are enforced.
In a nutshell....don't try getting your drugs in Mexico! LOL
(that was a nice short trip down memory lane.)

A Vet should be able to get you what you need.
Some less sensitive medications can be purchased from a Vet in larger quantities. Just explain that you have a large collection. And always work closely with a Vet when you are treating any animal.
"Shotgun treatments or guestimate diagnosis" is NOT the way to go.
Always get a culture...so that you really know what you are fighting. Good luck with the het clown.
See ya.
Harlin Wall - WALL TO WALL REPTILES!
970-245-7611

She's going in at 2pm today for a culture. Since she's already had Baytril, if nothing shows up then it means it's responding and we should keep going with it every other day. If it does, then it's resistant and we're going to try other antibiotics to find one it isn't resistant to. Since this vet isn't an experienced herp vet, they're learning as they go and have been talking with the vets at the UW Vet School since I left a message yesterday. They want to be able to treat my collection so they're changing things and adding to their knowledge so they can be prepared. I explained the 48-hour dosing of Baytril and they changed it in their medicine directory vs. the 5-day they gave me. Unfortunately my snake suffered the consequences, but at least no more should. The big help is Kari -- she's being really flexible and working hard to get all of this figured out and cured. Thanks for all the help guys...
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~* Jen *~

Pink Lady Constrictors

I tried to get her in with my vet to do a culture and find out what antibiotic it doesn't resist so we can start on it, but they were busy with a dying dog of some kind and I couldn't make the snake wait more than 30 minutes -- I worry about her being cool. So I left and called the AH of Verona upon the recommendation of another local snake keeper, explained what was going on, and they squeaked me in at 5:30 tonight. I hope to God they can get me started on something ASAP, I give her maybe 3-4 days left to make it if she doesn't have any kind of treatment. This is pissing me off, it isn't fair -- I try to save them with something and not only is it explained to me wrong but it doesn't even work...
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~* Jen *~

Pink Lady Constrictors

are you using? Just wondering cause it sounds like you may have some drift problems.
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Bluegrass Reptiles llc

Solid enclosed AP Sterilite 1960 rack w/ heat cable controlled by a Helix.
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~* Jen *~

Pink Lady Constrictors

Jen,
I'm really sorry about Dizzy. Unfortunately there are a lot of vets out there who don't have a lot of herp experience & go by what they read in their books.. & their books are from when -they- went to vet school! If nothing else it will make you (& your vet) hyper-vigilent about your little het clown. Keep her warm, keep her hydrated, get her cultured, & keep your fingers crossed. Such stoic little critters are difficult to treat in the best of circumstances, since you only know they're sick when they're *really* sick.
Best of luck. My thoughts are with you!

-Tami*

Well, this new herp vet took a look at her. Took a swab, but couldn't get enough mucous for a culture. Just a bubble to look at under a slide, and didn't see anything because it wasn't much of a sample. So we talked about new treatment and decided to go with oral Cipro every 48 hours for a week. If this doesn't work, and Baytril didn't work, then I don't know what else.
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~* Jen *~

Pink Lady Constrictors

Why didn't the vet just send some saliva off? Did she just not do more Baytril? Every 5 days injections of Baytril isn't going to let anyone know whether it's working or not. Most everything is susceptible to Baytril unless you just have something weird(even the rare bacteria my snake has was Intermediately susceptible to Baytril).

There are alot of other inexpensive antibiotics to try. Amikacin is a good one and can be nebulized, Fortaz(ceftazidime), Amoxicillin, Clavamox, Tylan(Tylosin), etc. You can even get Tylan from Tractor Supply and other farm and ranch supply stores. Dose for that is 5mg/kg q24h for 7d SubQ. It works well against mycoplasma bacteria(common cause of reptile RI).
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-Becky Brown, RVT-
1.0 Lemon Pastel Classic Jungle(NERD)
1.0 Black Pastel
2.13 Normals
1.0 NERD Yellow/Green Hypo
1.1 Spiders(BHB)
1.1 Yellowbellies(BHB)
1.0 100% Het Pied Classic Jungle(Don Kaye)
0.1 50% Poss. Het Pied(Gary Kettring)
0.1 Classic Jungle
1.0 66% Poss Het Ax Genetic Granite(VPI)
18 07 Hatchlings

My vet is not a reptile vet -- they followed what they had in a book. There are no reptile vets here except the UW but I can't afford $200-$250 for every RI nor try to make my work schedule fit with the 2 days per week they're open for clinicals. Obviously the 5-day course didn't work because the snake died anyway. I had already tried Tylan every 48 hours (I have it here) and she was getting worse, not responding to it at all. Then she went on the Baytril, and died 2 weeks later.

Now the het clown is on oral Cipro, q48h. It's a stronger human form of Baytril so it should work.
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~* Jen *~

Pink Lady Constrictors

I have Augmentin that I just got for my daughter and don't need -- can I give her that?

Completely kidding...although I wish it were possible since that crap'll kill anything.
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~* Jen *~

Pink Lady Constrictors

Becky,
When giving Baytril injections every 2 days, how long do you continue giving the shots after the RI symptoms have cleared up?

Also, here is what my vet told me......does this sound correct?
"Injection in the side of the snake (not the dorsal area) in the first 1/3 of the body."

One last question......How deep would you put the tip of the needle into the snake? My vet (who does not have much reptile experience) told me about 1/4" into the side muscle going in at an angle under the scale. (Note: this was for an adult cornsnake)

Thanks!!!

Brian

I give them for a good, solid month, depending on severity of the RI.

As for giving injections, I give them about 1/4" to 1/2"(depending on size of snake) away from the spine, in those large muscles. I usually go inbetween scales and almost parallel to the skin, then further advance the needle deeper into the muscle, withdraw the plunger to check for blood(do not inject into a vein), and then depress plunger. Takes about 4-5 seconds to give a shot like that.

The sick Ball I have right now, the one getting oral meds, is doing well. Less mucous in her mouth, easier breathing, keeping her weight steady, staying hydrated. She's also about to shed, so we'll see how she feels afterwards. I have two others that I an preventatively treating(a 45g granite hatchling and a Classic Jungle female because of their immune systems not being as well-developed). Jungles just seem to have poor immune systems altogether.. It's odd..

Jen, if you were in TX, it'd be easier to get that culture done quicker. Do you not have anymore Baytril you can use? Anything is better than nothing. I hope the vet can see the little het clown soon!
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-Becky Brown, RVT-
1.0 Lemon Pastel Classic Jungle(NERD)
1.0 Black Pastel
2.13 Normals
1.0 NERD Yellow/Green Hypo
1.1 Spiders(BHB)
1.1 Yellowbellies(BHB)
1.0 100% Het Pied Classic Jungle(Don Kaye)
0.1 50% Poss. Het Pied(Gary Kettring)
0.1 Classic Jungle
1.0 66% Poss Het Ax Genetic Granite(VPI)
18 07 Hatchlings