Reptile & Amphibian Forums

We brought this topic up over on the Kingsnake general forum, so I'm going to move it over here in an attempt to localize the responses in one place.

It is my opinion, that this trait is simple recessive. If you agree or disagree please tell my why and provide evidence.

Please understand that if an unknown het were bred to a known het, and you produced melanistic thayeri, and the trait IS simple recessive, then it would be easy to reach an incorrect conclusion. In some respects it is just as difficult to prove (many generations needed) that a normal appearing phenotype is not heterozygous for a specific trait.
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http://www.hcu-tx.org

I purchased a trio in the 80's from Scott Michaels (vet in Illinois, posts in classifieds). They were very tough to get feeding and after 5 years I got a pair to breed and they threw all melanistics, two seasons in a row. I never got the second female to breed and being young and impatient I sold them because I couldn't deal with trying to get the hatchlings to feed.

Since he had a trio of melanistic clutch mates and mine threw all melanistics I would think its recessive.

You can try to contact him to see if the adults were melanistic also.
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"The band is just fantastic, that is really what I think. Oh by the way, which ones pink?"

Question about breeding a melanistic to a melanistic.

If you bred a melanistic to a melanistic and you produced some or all normal appearing phenotypes, what can you assume about the melanistic gene in the breeders OTHER than the possibility it is two different traits expressing melanism in each breeder respectively.

I guess I'm just amazed that the gene has been around as long as it has and hasn't been proved (to the same conclusion by all workers).
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http://www.hcu-tx.org

Two points I will respond to as far as this post is concerned.

First the propencity of thayeri to feed on rodents as a first meal is a trait that can be selectively bred for. Dave Barker of VPI got me started along these lines a number of years ago, when working with Childrens pythons another notoriously hard starting snake. Our sucess rate with hatchling thayeri runs well in excess of 90% after years of selective breeding for that trait. Don Soderburg of South Mountain experienced this last year when he had some of my breeding group on breeder loan for the first time.

As far as the black trait is concerned we currently have 6 black adults in the colony. Even when bred to each other they produce a wide variety of colors and patterns, it is not a predictable trait to say the least for us. With that said though when they do outcrop with the other colors, they seem to be all the normal patterns and base ground colors you see in wild caught thayeri as versus the color bred animals you see in the hobby today. Below is a bad picture of the typical color and pattern type thayeri we can expect for black to black mating. Some are prettier and some are darker, but this is a good median line of the results we get. I guess this is why they call them Variable Kingsnakes. LOL

John Cherry
Cherryville Farms

is always valued and I am so glad you posted on this subject.

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Michelle
All things bright and beautiful,
All creatures great and small,
All things wise and wonderful:
The Lord God made them all.

John,
Good stuff. You didn't come right out and say it, but I assume melanistic x melanistic DID produce melanistic, just not 100%. Is that correct?

Could this be an example of a co dominant trait? Do you have an opinion about that?

>>As far as the black trait is concerned we currently have 6 black adults in the colony. Even when bred to each other they produce a wide variety of colors and patterns, it is not a predictable trait to say the least for us. With that said though when they do outcrop with the other colors
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http://www.hcu-tx.org

>>I purchased a trio in the 80's from Scott Michaels (vet in Illinois, posts in classifieds). They were very tough to get feeding and after 5 years I got a pair to breed and they threw all melanistics, two seasons in a row. I never got the second female to breed and being young and impatient I sold them because I couldn't deal with trying to get the hatchlings to feed.
>>
>>Since he had a trio of melanistic clutch mates and mine threw all melanistics I would think its recessive.
>>
>>You can try to contact him to see if the adults were melanistic also.
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>>"The band is just fantastic, that is really what I think. Oh by the way, which ones pink?"

That is what I've always thought them to be as well. I even currently own a F2 Albino Ruthveni X Melanistic Thayeri exhibiting both traits which to me even more says they are recessive.
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www.mesozoicreptiles.com

It seems pretty clear that there are (at least) two paths to melanistic morphs.

Model #1 is a traditional homozygous recessive condition, and seemed to be prevalent with early breeder stock. This model applies to what Frank Retes and others observed (as posted on the general Ksnake forum) in the early days of mexicana breeding efforts. Steve Osborne published a note on this in Herp Review (http://www.sierraherps.com/pdf/Osborne1983.pdf) and obtained breeding results that fit a classic Mendelian ratio.

Model #2 follows what John Cherry just described, and is similar to what Brad Alexander, Mike Kochvar, and many others have observed. I have seen Brad’s offspring (the product of pairing a melanistic female with a normal leonis-morph male), all of which are quasi-normal phenotypes—in other words, no melanistics. However, to my eye they are clearly identifiable as the products of at least one melanistic parent. Phenotypically, they have a leonis pattern with a thin veneer of dark gray--like if you stood a few feet away with a can of black spray paint and fired off a brief mist. Other breeders have experienced similar results even when pairing two melanistic parents. Because the non-melanistic offspring were not as clean as other line-bred thayeri, they were more difficult for breeders to sell. I have been told by more than one breeder that this was the reason they no longer work with melanistic thayeri, and likely explains the relative scarcity of this morph for hobbyists. Clearly, this form of melanism does not follow a homozygous recessive pattern.

I am not aware of anyone who currently works with snakes that fit Model #1, and the early breeding stock that carried those genes may be gone from the captive realm.

Finally, it is also conceivable that melanism (in the sense of Model #2) might be the result of multiple genes acting in an additive fashion, such that you get degrees of melanin production.

Certainly a fun project for someone to tackle!

Cheers,

Bob Hansen
www.sierraherps.com

Bob wouldn't / couldn't model 2 track the same (ratio wise) as model 1?

Before the advent of "cleaner" line bred stock to compare to poor ground color of hets wouldn't have been an issue.

My opinion is that this is an incomplete dominante trait at least and it might also be multigenic if tied to MS phase thayeri. I've never seen a melanistic with an underlying leonis pattern.

On the early melanistics, as Obsorne states the babies did have underlying pattern and in most of those early examples as far as I know that was "leonis" moreso than MSP. In the babies almost across the board they were not glossy jet black at all but very muddy black. As adults the melanin was more intense and the animals were striking. It was not related to "black tipping". The melanin did get more intense with age however, (as in blacker, or not as opaque).

Also the parents of the melanistic animals I produced over 25 years ago were directly from Frank and were earth toned (male) and yellow green (female) respectively. That female threw high orange babies as well as yellow green and buckskins. In other words, the line breeders didn't have to work hard to express those outrageous colors because they were already there, and they certainly didn't have to abandon that line of melanistics to produce those super line bred orange ones. Instead they may have sacrificed the Variability of the Variable Kingsnake in order to make more Orange ones, or what ever.

On thing I am convinced of is that there is confusion because what it is now ain't the same as what it was then. Weird.
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http://www.hcu-tx.org

As for history my black thayeri they came from Applegate and Lemkie stock. Beyond that I can only speculate but I do not recall them behaving as a simple recessive trait. That said I did not keep records so my observation remain a simple personal impression.

Still, I would think that if this were a simple recessive (meaning not detectable in the het state) it would remain as prevalent in collections as it once was. That it is largely absent today suggests something about the line caused it to be widely selected against in captive collections.

Folks, we have been working with thayeri for around 20 years now and they are a bit perplexing about how to fit them into any of the traditional molds. We have some of the original stock I got from Lloyd before he passed a way, one of the females is 17 now and we alos have some we got from Louie Porras both sets of animals produce about the same results as the more modern lines we are working with.

We also have a few F1 animals from some conficated animals that we call the Laredo line that are really nearly exactly like the old wild caught thateyri you used to see.

They do have that gray cast to some of them, but that is just a general statement. Below is a picture of a milk phase out of a lemke black bred to a black I have had for years. The other is the result of a black bred to a pretty nice buckskin I got form Dan V. Very clean for animals from those type breedings.

Right now we are working with some animals for Dan V. That we added a while back and trying to isolate the leopard pattern that he had in his group and I had in my group.

As far as the black is concerned we consider it to be a random gene much like the patternless southern pine and a few other animals the hobby. This year we produced 7 blacks I think and they came from every color and pattern in the spectrum.

>>Folks, we have been working with thayeri for around 20 years now and they are a bit perplexing about how to fit them into any of the traditional molds. We have some of the original stock I got from Lloyd before he passed a way, one of the females is 17 now and we alos have some we got from Louie Porras both sets of animals produce about the same results as the more modern lines we are working with.

John,
Even at an age of 17 years that puts the birth of the Lemke stock snake around 1990, more than a decade after most of the founding stock of thayeri arrived in the country.

>>We also have a few F1 animals from some conficated animals that we call the Laredo line that are really nearly exactly like the old wild caught thateyri you used to see.

I am familiar with the Laredo line, but not so familiar with what you mean by "old wild caught thayeri you used to see"? The Chorro Canyon animals? Or the Iturbide animals? Or Galeana, La Ascencion or Doctor Arroyo? Or maybe San Antonio de las Alanzas animals?

The early thayeri were extremely variable which was my point in the previous thread about line breeding a variable snake for a specific trait (mainly the orange ones was what I was groaning about).

>>
>>They do have that gray cast to some of them, but that is just a general statement. Below is a picture of a milk phase out of a lemke black bred to a black I have had for years. The other is the result of a black bred to a pretty nice buckskin I got form Dan V. Very clean for animals from those type breedings.

>>As far as the black is concerned we consider it to be a random gene much like the patternless southern pine and a few other animals the hobby. This year we produced 7 blacks I think and they came from every color and pattern in the spectrum.

At any rate this is the most interesting part of your post in regards to our conversation. I think at this point we have two possibilities.

1) There are two models that express melanism in thayeri, or
2) The gene that expresses melanism in thayeri was never "proved" to be simple recessive way back when - hence the confusion today.

Right now I have no idea which of the two scenarios is accurate.

>>
>>
>>
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http://www.hcu-tx.org

John Cherry said "Below is a picture of a milk phase out of a lemke black bred to a black I have had for years."

This statement and another equivalent one that I forget who posted it, is why I think it is possible that the het phase of black thayeri can range from anything from almost totally normal on up to fully black.

The het phase of striped/abberant ruthveni apparently acts the same way. I have seen proven "hets" that were abberrant(produce abberrants and "super striped" abberrants) and proven hets that were indistinguishable from normal ruthveni(produce normals and abberrants).

Same goes for hypo El Dorado county cal kings with full lineage to wc founders: hypo to hypo breeding producing mixed clutches of normals and hypos.

If I remember correctly an examination of Dan Johnson's website will show that Sheldon's patternless grayband worked the same way.

Joe wasn't your pair of black thayeri produced from a normal looking Dan V. bred to a black phase? While there is a possiblity the Dan V. snake was het for black it is very strange to me that Dan V. hasn't had or produced any black thayeri for many, many years. Unless I am wrong about Dan, but I seem to remember asking Dan if he had any blacks a couple years ago and he told me he hasn't worked with them for many years.

>>Joe wasn't your pair of black thayeri produced from a normal looking Dan V. bred to a black phase? While there is a possiblity the Dan V. snake was het for black it is very strange to me that Dan V. hasn't had or produced any black thayeri for many, many years. Unless I am wrong about Dan, but I seem to remember asking Dan if he had any blacks a couple years ago and he told me he hasn't worked with them for many years.

At this time I only have a pair of normal thayeri produced by Brad Alexander where one parent was black. They are sibs. Melanistic x Dan V. if I'm not mistaken, I still haven't written it down.
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http://www.hcu-tx.org

I am sorry. I must've misread your post on the other forum and thought your pair was black.
I do have a female black thayeri that is fairly reliably traced back to Garstka line and I have normal males from both Dan V. and Tim Gebhart. They just aren't old enough to breed the female yet but I hope to work on these questions in the future.

this male is an Applegate X Lemkie derivative. Both lines have produced blacks. Ready to go in 08. We should arrange a rendezvous between him and your black.

That is a nice snake. It reminds me of a male Lemke I had that I wish I hadn't sold. I have a male from Dan V. that should be ready to go next season.
PS - I sent you an email.

Yep, you are correct Joe. Mel X Dan. V MSP.

Between your and Franks observations any idea I had of a pattern to this is shot to ..... Oh well.

I've been working with thayeri for 20 year too and like you never saw the blacks as anything but random. Reconciling the observations might not be possible but I don't think that it necessarily means that we're dealing with two distinct traits here. In my experience thayeri can be line bred to breed true in that you can derive lines that produce almost exclusively MS phase and lines that produce almost exclusively leonis phase. I don't see it as much of a stretch to think that you could also develop a line that bred almost exclusively blacks. Perhaps by chance alone that is what Frank’s original founder stock was.

Another possibility is that there is another gene that is epistatic to the one that codes for the deposition of melanin in the scales. Epistasis is when a gene at one locus alters the phenotypic expression (outward appearance) of a gene at a second locus.

A simplified example is coat color in Labrador Retrievers. Black coat color is dominant, but there is a second gene, that is epistatic to the first, that determines whether or not pigment will be deposited in the hair. That gene is simply farther "upstream" in the cellular pathway. The epistatic gene takes precedence no matter what is going on later in the pathway. If the epistaic gene is homozygous dominant or heterozygous, then color gets deposited in the hair. If it is homozygous recessive, then color does not get deposited, no matter if the animal is homozygous dominant for black hair or not. The result of being homozygous recessive for color deposition in the hair is the yellow lab.

This may be what we're seeing in melanistic thayeri. There may be an epistaic gene responsible for the deposition of melanin in the scales. If it is present in the homozygous dominant or heterozygous state, then if the animal is homozygous for melanistic the melanin gets deposited and the result is the phenotypic all black snake. If the epistatic gene is homozygous recessive against melanin deposition, then the snake may phenotypically appear muddy or normal.

This could explain the appearance early on of the trait seeming to be simple recessive. many animals my have had the "upstream" epistatic gene to express melanin deposition in the scales. Selective breeding could have messed with the upstream gene in unforseen ways leading to the model #2 that we see today...melanin deposition in the scales appearing to occur somewhat "randomly". Just a thought.
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Species kept:

Nuevo Leon Kings
Kunasir Island Rats
San Luis Potosi Kings
Axanthic Desert Kings
White Oak Gray Rats
Corns

Coming Soon:

Western Green Rats

Beaker,

you are as close to my explanation of this situation, but did a much better job of explaining it to everyone than could have. Thanks for helping me out with my limited ability to explain what i have seen over the years. LOL

I do not doubt that in some lines that the intensity of the so called black gene is more prevalent than in others. But with that said, it was amazing to me how quickly (one generation) the muted ground colors came back in force when some of my animals and Dan V's were bred to f1 animals from the laredo stock.

On the other question, Joe the animals I am referring to are from back when Randy L. was collecting Mexico extensively along with a few other guys and the thayeri they brought back were much duller in ground and pattern color. Over the years the colors have intensified and so have the patterns become really varied.

You know how I am a junkie for locale or verified line animals and the thayeri I started with were all animals that had been kept relatively pure when it came for the genentics of the lines were concerned and even though I can't claim true locale specific animals in the sense of the word that we accept in todays world of reptiles such as Grey bands, pituophis etc.

I can say the genetics fo the 5 different lines we have are traceable and of great interest to me. They each have differnt attributes that I like n different ways.

Of course the information I have on my animals are only as good as the people I got them from. But personally I believe them. Not that that in itself makes them anymore desirable to most folks than any other animals in the hobby. LOL

These guys are habit forming to me and between the pituophis and thayeri I have trouble finding a lot of room for the other stuff I like. Such as my alterna, brooksi and corns. Oh well such is the life of bonified herp addict.

John Cherry
Cherryville Farms

and for the record that type does matter to me, so it's all good, and I will say of great interest to me and I'm sure others as well.

I wouldn't hesitate to buy your thayeri, muted colors or otherwise.
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http://www.hcu-tx.org

Very interesting and I wonder if an epistatic gene could be sex linked. The reason is a similar situation with the hypermelanistic/striped/abberrant Davis cal kings. In the wild you hypermelanistic males are always(so far) also striped/abberrant. Female hypermelanistics in the wild are almost always banded. However inbreed them in captivity a generation or two and the females become both hypermelanistic and striped abberrant.

Very good explantion, thanks for explaing it so well.
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Michelle
All things bright and beautiful,
All creatures great and small,
All things wise and wonderful:
The Lord God made them all.

said that he thinks there could be two lines of Melanistics. This is exactly what I have thought for a long time.
I think that within in particular line it is simple recessive but I am pretty sure that there are 2 or even more lines in the hobby today and its a crap shoot everytime you cross a black with a black. I think if somebody had the simple recessive line the could isolate it and line breed it to produce simple recessive animals. The problem is I think that there are way more double homozygous and single homo hets in the hobby so its hard to say whats what.

Shannon

or probably, but Beaker's explanation has merit as well. About all we can do is prove what is still in the hobby and hope what was in the hobby in the past is not lost.

I probably shouldn't be so surprised over it, but it caught me off guard when I said I had a pair of "hets" from Brad and someone said they aren't hets! News to me.
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http://www.hcu-tx.org

I have been looking obsessively for black thayeri for a while now and so far have my hands on one female, I have missed out on a few here and there where somebody else either outbid me or just beat me to it, but I will say that it seems like most black thayeri I see are female for some reason… Now if that is pure chance or just the reality I am not sure. Also in my talking to the folks that have kept and worked with thayeri it sounds like the hobby drifted away from the black form many years ago because they were not as easy to sell as a bright animal (and this is where the bright orange line bred animals came from). And to make it worse the few people that still work with the black form do not see any kind of consistent results to suggest a simple recessive trait is in control. I feel like it is a result of some Heinz 57 genetic interaction that is just not understood or proven out.

And to put one question to rest, how many people have a male black thayeri right now? It would seem that they are greatly outnumbered by the females from what I have been coming across.

Lance

Lance:

I've got one male that should be ready to breed next spring. Here's a link to his pic:

http://www.sierraherps.com/gallery/leonis/Animals/slides/DSC04660[1]_LMT015web.html

Cheers,

Bob

I have one male that is breeding size. I know Mike K. also has a pair that should breed this year.
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Michelle
All things bright and beautiful,
All creatures great and small,
All things wise and wonderful:
The Lord God made them all.

Lance, I agree and have noticed the same thing. Female black thayeri seem to be more common (but not common) than males. At least that is my superficial observation.

I know Bob Hansen has a male and I HAD a male before he kicked the bucket on me.

Well, needless to say, I would like to pair my black female up with a black male. I know that I could do that and still produce all "normal thayeri" (whatever normal really is?). But I still want to do it that way...

The good news is that my female is this years and leaves me some time to work things out... And as a hatchling she is a shiny jet black with no visable pattern.

Maybe we should start a black thayeri club and wear a funny hat or a jacket with a logo on the back...?

oh my GOTH that sounds fun Lance.LOL.....

I have a young adult male that is sitting in Germany right now.I should have him next month or so.

Shannon

Lance,

No visible pattern on your young female is not necessarily a good thing. That and underlying lateral striping tend to be indicative of differing degrees of hybridization.

In a good true melanistic thayeri, you should be able to detect an underlying banded pattern in the right light (especially towards the tail). Direct sunlight usually works well...or when they are blue it is sometimes easier to see.

I am not questioning the lineage of your female, just providing the info for you to onsider. Maybe you just havent looked close enough in the right type of lighting. You may want to check again.
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Species kept:

Nuevo Leon Kings
Kunasir Island Rats
San Luis Potosi Kings
Axanthic Desert Kings
White Oak Gray Rats
Corns

Coming Soon:

Western Green Rats

>>Lance,
>>
>>No visible pattern on your young female is not necessarily a good thing. That and underlying lateral striping tend to be indicative of differing degrees of hybridization.
>>

I will admit to having trust in the individual that I got her from, he did not produce her though, but I still trust him to be attentive. At the time he had 4 of them and I picked out the biggest of the batch, and she is a power eater... feisty little thing when there is a thawed pink around.

I did not look closely at the rest, but I do remember him saying that he could just see a faint MSP pattern on some of them while I was there.

I will get her out and give her a very close look in the next day or two though..

But as a follow up on the above comment, what can you hybridize a thayeri with to make a better black phase?

Lance

Due to the lack of them in the hobby, in the last year we have gone to three shows and at all of them there were hybrids being sold as Black Thayeri. The most common was a cross with Mexican Black Kings. In the F 1's it is fairly obvious from the size of them and also the head shape after they are a couple of months old. But in the F 2 generation it is extremely hard to see. I personally hate all this hybridization with a passion and therefore will only buy from folks that I have complete trust in. It sucks big time having to question other people's animals for me. So I usually just keep my mouth shut/steer away from those animals and any that the person may produce in the future. And yes I do keep a list of the questionable animals I see and who had them for my eyes only though. LOL

John Cherry
Cherryville Farms

John,
We also need to accumulate the names and contact information of the breeders of mexicana types (and the types they work with) that keep their lines true, much like what we have done with the recommended breeders page on the alterna page. This information would be very useful and popular.

Joe
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http://www.hcu-tx.org

That might be useful. I have been striving to keep my lines pure...and as varied genetically as possible within the parameter of being pure thayeri. I get lineage info on my animals, and buy from trusted sources.

I have also found that the circle of thayeri afficionados is small enough that with time, you simply learn who is most likely to have pure stock, and who likely may not.
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Species kept:

Nuevo Leon Kings
Kunasir Island Rats
San Luis Potosi Kings
Axanthic Desert Kings
White Oak Gray Rats
Corns

Coming Soon:

Western Green Rats

I have a few names for example, vivid and sierra, john cherry, and a breeder or two that do not post on kingsnake, but... there's a lot of folks I don't know, you for example I just met on this thread.

As you know buying snakes can be a bit of a game, for example when you have the money, the snakes aren't around, or vice versa. This "sales tool" could help offset some of the problems associated with tracking down animals when the time is right.

It would also be useful for second tier breeders and sellers. For example John Doe buys a couple snakes from John Cherry and two years down the road wants to get rid of them. I don't know John Doe but I do know John Cherry. A quick double check with John C. and bam I make an offer.
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http://www.hcu-tx.org

To me the danger is that such lists run the risk of becoming elitist. Especially given the criteria suggested.

On his site (Vivid) Tim G. goes over how he approaches reptile breeding. He selects unique, quality and often founder stock and works with it until it’s the most esthetically pleasing possible. In this regard he isn’t a wild type locality guy and he certainly isn’t into crosses or hybrids but does at least suggestion a fascination at the possibilities being made possible by all forms of reptiles breeding. What I admire most about Tim, beside his obvious work ethic, is that he doesn’t waste time or effort making judgments about what others do. He simply distinguishes himself by putting his own best foot forward.

The point is that a Vivid animal will be well cared for, robust, beautiful and honestly represented. What’s more, I doubt that would change if Tim started working with a crossed or hybridized line and fell off of some exclusive list.

I would like to inquire where or what about this proposed idea suggests elitist?

Let me explain how the list on the alterna page works.

First, a breeder has to ask to be listed, and second he must work with locality animals. The list does not discriminate against those that work with generics. In other words, if a breeder has both generics and locality alterna, he can still be listed along with the localities he works with.

Personally, I do not view the idea as elitist. I view it as nothing more than a directory - a listing that makes things easier to find, exactly the same principle behind phone books. The analogy is what if every time you needed to find a plumber you had to call all your friends and ask if they knew a plumber?

As far as I am concerned, the list could have lstings for those that work with pure lines and another category for intergrade / hybrid lines. Do you think that would satisfy requirements for a non-elitist list?
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http://www.hcu-tx.org

I kind of put your idea of a list together with JC’s, for his eye only, list which wasn't fair. Even if it is not his intent, JC’s concept communicates that working with hybrids or crosses and being trustworthy are mutually exclusive concepts. The inferred flip side to this is that being honest is mutually agreeable with keeping pure lines. That many who are “morally outraged” by the hybridization of captive bred reptiles hold and promote this view I think is well documented on the forums. In any case I see this as an example of faulty reasoning being used to exclude breeders who otherwise might be class acts. If that isn’t elitist I don’t know what is but agree that it doesn't mix with your notion of a list Joe.

Still, lets look at your idea of needing to be a second or third tier breeder to some core group of select producers before making offers. Let me ask a few questions, does purchasing “pure” stock from anybody confer ethical superiority? Does it assure that the breeder would not purchase stock from other less “trusted” sources or that they would not cross those stocks? The answer is no on all counts. As an example, I could offer thayeri as Vivid “earth toned” stock but the only thing that Tim can verify via a call is whether I purchased “earth toned” stock form him or not. He would have no idea if the animals I’m offering were derived from his stock or not. In the end, it still falls to me to honestly represent my animals and it still falls to the buyer to make a judgment call as to my character.

I’ve been breeding thayeri for 20 plus years. I paid and continue to pay top price for stock from people I personally deem reputable but I’ve never felt the need to adopt their reputations in order to move what I produce nor should I have to.

Not a thayeri but cool pic none the less

Tony,
I don't agree with any of that.

The alterna page list of breeders doesn't insinuate or discriminate. It is what it is, a simple directory.
It does not guarantee honesty or integrity any more than a mexicana directory would.

As far as hybrids and intergrades, we can have a category for that too to insure non discriminate nature.

Second and third tier breeders can be listed as well.

We will still need to trust or do homework just as always.

It will not cure hunger or create world peace.

It is much more simple than you make it out to be. A simple directory. Let's not make a mountain out of a mole hill.

I only know that there is a working model in place that is useful. It is not the best thing since sliced bread, but it was never made out to be either, just a simple directory.
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http://www.hcu-tx.org

Sorry Joe I respect you and appreciate that you’ve showed a lot of patience with me in the past discussing like issues but I don’t think you are being objective here. Nothing I said is contrary to fact. Being on a list or being a second or third tier breeder to Tim, Bob or anyone else doesn’t mean one honestly represents their animals. Suggesting otherwise is nothing short of adopting their credibility.

As for the RECOMMENDED Breeder Page this is what I read, “Below is a list of L. alterna breeders whose locality data has been confirmed. To become a member of this list you are required to submit photos & locality data/family tree for all localities claimed.” If there is there anything about this quote that would encourage a guy with a couple pair of nice generic alterna to request membership, I missed it.

Don’t get me wrong I don’t think there is anything wrong with your page. Heck I even use it but in its current form it is exclusive which by definition is also elite. A more inclusive page would not be.

The thing with alterna however, is there are enough specimens out there to warrant selecting against generics particularly if I’m looking for a specific phenotype. Thayeri are a different matter as true breeding specific phenotypes isn’t part of the beast. Also, and this is just conjecture, but I don’t believe there is anywhere near enough existing stock with legit claims to founder status to replace or warrant selecting against the diversity found in the larger captive gene pool. Shoot even among that larger group we almost lost the black phase! This is just me, but I would prefer to “endure” the potential that there might be a little greeri in the wood pile than slash the genetic diversity of stocks to a level that might not sustain long term captive viability.

I think there is a big difference between looking out for recent and deliberate crosses and learning to accept that most captive stocks came in at a time when the we didn’t fully appreciate the difference between thayeri and greeri. Fact of the matter is that we still aren’t sure of the taxonomic status of these animals. From some of my reading, I gather that among wild populations MS and leonis phases are associated with locality, breed pretty true and are somewhat isolated by geographic barriers. If the academics ever decide these two are sub specifics, different clades or whatever term they use to slice and dice populations the entire notion of a pure variable tricolor king from Mexico will be shot in the foot anyway.

Sorry Joe I respect you and appreciate that you’ve showed a lot of patience with me in the past discussing like issues but I don’t think you are being objective here. Nothing I said is contrary to fact. Being on a list or being a second or third tier breeder to Tim, Bob or anyone else doesn’t mean one honestly represents their animals. Suggesting otherwise is nothing short of adopting their credibility.

Tony,
What I'm saying is that a list of names can not possibly take on human properties. It is only humans that might assign properties to names on a list. I know Tim, and I don't know you very well. I would not automatically assume that Tim is was a more respected or honorable person than you because he was more well known? That is not how I operate.

If I see a name on a list associated with thayeri that I don't know, I'm not going to purchase from him just because his name is on a list. I'm going to request photos of the offspring, get a reference and make up my own mind, just like we do now w/o a list of names. After I've bought from him a few times and he has earned my trust then it might be a different story. This is how we earn a reputation.

Please note that there are already some of those so called "first tier" breeders that have asked not to have their names listed. Participation is voluntary.

As for the RECOMMENDED Breeder Page this is what I read, “Below is a list of L. alterna breeders whose locality data has been confirmed. To become a member of this list you are required to submit photos & locality data/family tree for all localities claimed.” If there is there anything about this quote that would encourage a guy with a couple pair of nice generic alterna to request membership, I missed it.
>>

Several of those breeders also breed generic alterna. That fact does not automatically exclude them from the locality breeders list. Likewise that does not assume that just because they breed generics that they are also "laundering" generics into locality animals for personal gain. Both are assumptions. Its best to avoid assumptions at all costs in this game.

Don’t get me wrong I don’t think there is anything wrong with your page. Heck I even use it but in its current form it is exclusive which by definition is also elite. A more inclusive page would not be.

Maybe we are arguing semantics. I don't see anything elite about it. It is a factual and verifiable situation that ANYONE could put themselves into. Elite suggests that we are excluding a group that would otherwise wish to be included.

The thing with alterna however, is there are enough specimens out there to warrant selecting against generics particularly if I’m looking for a specific phenotype. Thayeri are a different matter as true breeding specific phenotypes isn’t part of the beast. Also, and this is just conjecture, but I don’t believe there is anywhere near enough existing stock with legit claims to founder status to replace or warrant selecting against the diversity found in the larger captive gene pool.

There are good animals out there, but they are getting harder and harder to find. I don't think a directory would influence that fact one way or another.

Shoot even among that larger group we almost lost the black phase! This is just me, but I would prefer to “endure” the potential that there might be a little greeri in the wood pile than slash the genetic diversity of stocks to a level that might not sustain long term captive viability.

This is a reality that we all must face. Neither you nor I have any choice in the matter. A directory of breeders will not alter the number or quality of animals available one way or the other.

I think there is a big difference between looking out for recent and deliberate crosses and learning to accept that most captive stocks came in at a time when the we didn’t fully appreciate the difference between thayeri and greeri.

Actually, IMO there is not the problem with greeri, or mex mex as there is with thayeri, at least not the same magnitude. For some reason thayeri was the sub of choice for the albino ruthveni breeders, most likely because of the potential for variability, I'm sure.

If Frank insinuates I'm odd because of my fascination with wild phenotypes then I am. I don't remember being any other way. When I see Kingsnake I want to know where it came from. If that is odd I accept that, because I am that way, always have been.

This hobby has evolved a great deal. When I came into the hobby we were just learning how to breed colubrids. We didn't even know that a Rat snake would breed with a Milk snake.

Aaron made a tremendous post on the hybrid forum recently. It was very astute and if we don't take action soon his words of prophecy will come around to haunt us.

You have to realize that I do not condemn hybrids or those that create them. I respect the rights of those breeders to do what they wish. I have no problem with them advertising their wares right alongside the folks who breed true lines. It's a matter of choice, free choice. I think it's great, seriously. It is also my choice to purchase animals that interest me, and most likely my choices would not intentionally be hybrid or intergrade.

Fact of the matter is that we still aren’t sure of the taxonomic status of these animals. From some of my reading, I gather that among wild populations MS and leonis phases are associated with locality, breed pretty true and are somewhat isolated by geographic barriers.

There are places where MS and leonis and all intermediates are found together. There are other places where one pattern or another "appear" to be mutually exclusive but that is not a concrete fact, it is possibly a bias by limited sample size.

If the academics ever decide these two are sub specifics, different clades or whatever term they use to slice and dice populations the entire notion of a pure variable tricolor king from Mexico will be shot in the foot anyway.

There's a lot going on right there in that neck of the woods.
I can't say what the academics will do, or whether the lumpers or splitters will prevail, but we at least knew what we called thayeri and what we called something else when most of them came in.

I don't want to sound like I'm dismissing your input, because I'm making a concerted effort to understand where you are coming from. However, I have to admit that there is a wall between us that I really do not comprehend.

I understand that directory is not going to be perfect. It might even be useless, or fail. If so it won't be the first thing I tried and failed at, nor will it be the last. But that won't stop me from at least trying. I see it as all good. I understand that not everyone is going to agree. I'll try it, and if it doesn't work I've lost nothing but my time - and it won't take very much of that.
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http://www.hcu-tx.org

"Maybe we are arguing semantics"

I would agree with that. Joe, I gneerally get on here and play devils advocate to see where things will go. if you look at what I write, I don't speak in absolutes. I think my original post said something like the danger is that such lists run the RISK of becoming elitist. Not that they alway do or will. Also my comments really stem for what I precieved as a very elitist atmosphere on the pit forum. This forum has always been pretty open to different views and I it would be ashame to see that change.

BTW I don't think you are odd for liking wild phenotypes. Check around, I do too. 60% of my collection is wild type locaity suff nobodyelse wants!

I've known Tim personally for over 20 years, and I concur that his reputation is unblemished... however... keep reading his page...

He shut off his collection to the outside world, virtually, in other words he is extremely careful what he brings into his collection. I'm not sure but this might be an example of what you are afraid our directory might become when you use the term elitist?

I don't view Tim as elitist, and I think his reasoning is exactly the same as my reasoning for creating the directory. So I don't think you can separate the two ideologies. The are in fact one in the same.

A long time ago Tim used to buy mice from. We talked a lot about alterna and thayeri, and we still do talk. He sends me photos and I send him photos when I want to bust his chops.

Tim's a GREAT guy, and I consider him a good friend.
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http://www.hcu-tx.org

With any group of animals being produced in captivity there is a tendency to push for characteristics we (humans) desire, not natural selection.

We may push for color, pattern, size, or behavior... But the bottom line is we are making the decisions based on what we like, not just letting things run the course as they would in the wild. All captive animals are on a path of domestication, no matter how hard you work to keep the breeding true, even when it is done on a very tight locality standard. We just cannot help it

As for the concern of the list being elitist, I do not think that is a real concern… In fact such a list will more likely get more people known by a larger group and allow them cultivate a reputation. As it is now there are fair number of people working with the mexicana complex but only a select few are very widely known. Think of it as a chance for anybody else to join the ranks by asking to be put on the list and making every effort to keep things honest.

Lance

Looks a lot like this one.

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"All the fancy names in the world will be of no help if you do not know the difference between chocolate pudding and pig poop." -Frank Retes

John answered for me...MBKs.
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Species kept:

Nuevo Leon Kings
Kunasir Island Rats
San Luis Potosi Kings
Axanthic Desert Kings
White Oak Gray Rats
Corns

Coming Soon:

Western Green Rats

Joe,

I have thought about that and yes it would be a help to a lot of folks that are only now beginning to get intersted in Thayeri. they are neat snakes and the overall numbers of them is small enough to control right now I would think.

As most folks know Pituophis are a passion of mine also. I can remember the day just a few short years ago when the number of folks that kept very many of them was small enough, where we all knew each other and the animals we each kept. That day is long gone now and it is a good/bad thing for the Pit. hobby.

The interest in the pits is a great thing for an impressive group of animals, but with the number of folks keeping them it is impossible to know everyone anymore. Most folks are great, but there are always a few turkeys in any roost. LOL There also has been a dramatic increase in hybrid animals in the pits. Some folks don't care and just want a good looking animal, but to me it does matter and from that standpoint the increase in popularity is a problem. I wish we had done something like that in the pits, before it got so big.

Why don't you do the deal with the thayeri and see where it goes. I talked Jeff into starting Kingsnake.com at a show in Auston many years ago when he was still with Compact and look where it has gone.

Who know a few years from now we may be referring to you as Mr Thayeri. Heck your reputation in Alterna is already great with you producing outstanding animals every year. Why not add a new wrinkle to the deal.

John Cherry
Cherryville Farms

John,
Mr Thayeri? Nawwwwwwww. I can't repeat the names people call me But a simple list I could handle. I'm thinking about it.
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http://www.hcu-tx.org

Haha, I could! Do it Joe and let's see where it goes. I know where I got my Thayeri, but where they really came from? Some yes, some no, so I would have to go both routes on the page, as my buckskin male came from a pet store, but I would breed him and represent him as such. Rumours have it he came from an old Thayeri fanatic from here via Vivid, but I could never prove it. But I like him.

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Todd Hughes

I used to own that female you posted. I know that she came from Dan V. I had no idea that you also owned her.
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Vichris
"The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane"- Marcus Aurelius

Vichris Variables

Hi,

this would explain why we discussed the "het line" I do know about, Shannon.

I wondered a lot why you did not believe that the snakes over here are sold as hets .

Gerrit
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http://www.lampropelten.de.vu