Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I hate to continue the argument from below but I did want to chime in with a couple opinions and a couple facts. First I don’t think the Super Stripe falls into the category of a “secret project” anymore. The ingredients that make them are very simply: a yellow belly and a “het” Super Stripe, spector, or whatever you want to call them. They are a co-dom on their own and look a lot like Vanillas, Fires, ect… But without the second co-dom you can’t produce super stripes period. Sorry no easy passes on this project.
Briefly about hiding ingredients, I can see both sides of this argument. It’s hard to want to buy something that you don’t know what makes it, but at the same time it’s hard for someone to work for years to produce something just to see another person trash all their hard work in one breeding season. But I guess that’s what a free market is all about. I don’t keep my projects secret as far as ingredients, but I think most people know on this forum that I don’t release pics of projects until I feel I’ve worked out the “kinks” and I’m close to marketing them. Just like Kev takes a lot of grief for keeping things on the down low with ingredients, I take grief for not posting pics of some project (wink, super lori, wink) But maybe they all die within a couple weeks anyway??? The point is that you really can’t please everyone. And maybe if you try to think of yourself in their/my shoes you can understand a little? Some people like to try to figure it out, others appreciate that someone is trying to protect their future investment, and then some look at it like you should share everything. All views have merit, it’s really always just opinion and everyone will have one of those And by the way there’s no Pastel in Inferno’s! Still a mystery? Brian (BHB)

I agree I think it is smart to keep some things secret for a while, but why not just come out and say that you will not be releasing pics until you have all the "kinks" worked out of a project intsead of always saying that pics will be posted when you have time or giving a similar response?
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John Vandegrift

I don't want to get into a pissing match but have you ever thought that when I do release pics of a new project that I want them to represent the animal as good as possible, and maybe I really haven't had the time to spend getting the pics that I want to post. And that's maybe why I normally don't post on forums and when I do and get grief from people like this post, it makes me want to post even less. Sorry if you take offense it's not meant to piss anyone off. I have to get back to my collection, so I'm done for now. Brian (BHB)

I don't take offense and not trying to get in a pissing match. Just in todays post you said you won't post pics of a project you have all of the "kinks" worked out. But previously you would say things like you were too busy or I want to get a good pic before posting. All I am asking is that if you don't want to post pics until you have a chance to work the project why not just say that when the countless people asked you for pics all last year? And about saying "posts like mine make you want to post even less". You don't post any pics how is it possible to "post even less"? Honestly though, I don't care whether you post pics or not. I just found it odd that all last season you acted like you would post pics when you had the time when you never had any intention of posting pics at all. It just seems to me at least that it would be easier for everyone if you just said you will not post pics so people would quit wasting their and your time asking.
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John Vandegrift

I believe with most of the projects out and the future project to be some of the breeders are sick of posting a new project and then have a someone jump on the band wagon only to copy what they have posted and lower the prices to rock bottom with out even doing any of the figuring out, they just get the combos and breed and lower the prices and with all of the different types of genetic ball python morphs out we will soon see several new and exciting combo's and someone needs to protect this ball craze. With more and more stuff coming out now and I see only good things to come with all of the new stuff. I think it is a good thing to keep some of the stuff secret, I mean, after all, I believe that most of the secrets have been forced by the fact that some people take their hard work that they have been working on for years and trash it in one year because they posted the genetics of a snake to soon. It just seems like in the begining of the ball crazy most of the breeders just said how they got the morph, but now things have gotten to be more difficult and it is taking alot more work for the original breeders to produce 3-4-5-6 way combo's and we don't want to see this crashed in one year. This is just my opinion on what I have seen over the past few years. Don't get me wrong I want to know the genetics as well as the next person, but when I really think about it I would rather figure it out myself, besides you might just produce something that no one else has heard of, it's happend time and time again, so not knowing just might be a good thing. I don't blame the breeders one bit, like I said I believe it has been forced.

kool yellow belly pictured

Thanks David

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www.Snakebstr.com -- Remember the Name it's in the Game!!! the Ball game that is

www.Snakebstr.com

WRONG !!!
WRONG... The only time I was WRONG is when I thought I was WRONG but I was really RIGHT.....LOL...LOL...LOL

I think you missed the point of my posts. I have no problem at all with people keeping things secret. I actually agree with it. The thing I have a problem with is someone telling everyone requesting pics that they will be posted when they have time or giving a similar response when in reality there was never any intention of posting any pics. Why not just come out and say that you will not be posting any pics until you have all the "kinks" worked out?
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John Vandegrift

I find it interesting that you know what my intentions are???

You stated your intentions in an above post? You said,"I think most people know on this forum that I don’t release pics of projects until I feel I’ve worked out the “kinks” and I’m close to marketing them". I never said I knew your intentions, but from the quote it sure sounds like you never had any intention of posting pics for the people who requested them. I just don't understand why you strung all of those people along instead of just coming out and saying "I don’t release pics of projects until I feel I’ve worked out the “kinks” and I’m close to marketing them"?
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John Vandegrift

Did I say what project I was talking about??? But I'm sure you know what it was because you know everything I'm thinking, right?

"I don’t release pics of projects until I feel I’ve worked out the “kinks” and I’m close to marketing them". Sounds like you are refering to all new projects to me? Why not just say no when people request pics? Honestly, I personally really don't care whether you ever show any pics of your projects. It's your right to do what you want with them. I just don't get the point in stringing along the people who do ask you for pics. But anyway, good luck with your season.
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John Vandegrift

Just forget about this guy........he obviously is just trying to get at you and it is not worth it.....Keep doing what your doing... He, along with countless numbers of other hobbyists dont have any clue what you have done for the ball community let alone the reptile industry as a whole.

So he is obviously pissed cause you didnt post pics of one of your projects that some people have asked for......

Who cares man..........if he had attended any of the shows he could have seen the snakes in person. Instead he has to ruffel your feathers on here......dont let it get to you.

Keep up the good work and keep on working the kinks out and when you and the projects are ready I am sure we will get to see them......until then..........lights out!

Jared Horenstein
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~ ASK ME ABOUT MY BALLS ~

I go to plenty of shows. I just don't feel the need to suck up like some do. And I seriously do not care to see his projects. I was just wondering why he let so many poeple think he was going to post pics or bring them to shows when he never had any intention until he was about ready to sell them. What is so hard to understand???
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John Vandegrift

would you think people would come up to and really thank you if you did reveal all ingredients and all of the positives about a new designer?

I bet they would be few and far between! There are some GREAT people out there that do give you credit and you see it when they speak to you. There are WAY more that would not and expect everything......

If it were not for people like VPI, RDR, Bob C., Myself, BHB, Snake Keeper blah, Graziani, blah the ball python mutation craze may still something overlooked.

We are seeing it(Ball Python mutations) become quite mainstream...as this happens we see some of the excitement leave and plenty of people jumping into it to burn through a project, collect the money and go off to the next....leaving a smoking pile of what was once a GREAT mutation!

When they are done SATAN will keeping a place ready for them!
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"Satan™" is a registered trademark of NERD, Inc. Any copyright infringement is punishable by ETERNAL DAMNATION and some other terrible stuff.

Well said my evil friend! (BHB)

you know I am actually glad alot of these people are getting out. It allows us who really enjoy the ball python to work with them and bring them to the rest of the herp community with dignity and without having to play games. You know I never thought I'd see prices of pastels cheaper than what normals go for in pet stores (granted they are usually low grade pastels but they are still pastels). The BIG WHOLESALE mentality took over the retail community and that is wrong as it put price bargaining over the quality of the animal and the amount of work that some people put into their collection. But anyway, I am thankful for all the work that the guys that started with just the few base mutations and ran with it and look forward to seeing more of those crazy 4 combo morphs every year (I think we are about 3 years from having the possibility to make one but I do have a dream).
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Josh & Krysty Hutto
J&K Reptiles

Various Ball Pythons:::

1.0 striped vanilla
1.0 spider
1.2 Citrus Ghost and hets
1.2 Albino and hets
2.3 het Pied
0.6 50% poss het pied
1.1 Pastel (male has additional gene going on with him)
a bunch of normal female breeders
a bunch of normal female holdbacks and several rescued normal males

0.1 columbian boa, she's a feeding monster, controls my
over production of rats, lol
0.1 brazilian rainbow boa, another rat eating monster
1.1 corns

a BAD dog is MADE not bred, support the American Pit Bull Terrier as the greatest breed of dogs on Earth!!!!!

I appreciate the time, money, dedication, and love that Kevin, Brian and all of the breeders that Kevin mentioned have put into the propagation of these animals so that we all may enjoy them.

The propagation of these animals did not just happen, these people made it happen.

However they wish to release their photos or ingredients is ok with me, the animals are theirs and they have earned the right.

Rich
Chesapeake Bay Ball Pythons

I've been looking at all the pics from Tinley Park...and just wanted to say to all you guys making the new stuff...great work and keep it up...very inspiring...ingredients known or not!!
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Dale....dgoins222@yahoo.com
www.LibertyReptiles.com

Everyone you mentioned paved the way for the rest of us and gave us the chance to own and enjoy some incredibly amazing animals -- without all of you, they wouldn't exist. The hard work you put into these mutations and years of dedication to projects is something very few people are willing to do -- most want the quick, easy way because they think they'll get rich (big joke).

This is something I talked about with Bruce when he stopped to drop my stuff off -- when did it start becoming all about the money and not about the hobby itself? When did people start thinking that mass production could ever be a good idea? By doing that, they're slowly ruining things for themselves as well as others, and eventually the animals suffer because there are too many snakes and too few buyers. The normal male, het male, and pastel male suffer the most...they don't sell, so they get dumped off at pet stores for a few bucks, then get marked up 300% and are bought by some inexperienced pre-teen that has no clue how to care for them. Greed overrides common sense. I would be happy as a lark to produce just enough animals to trade them off for other cool morphs that I don't have yet. I have a spider and a mojave, but I'm not breeding them to 50 females to make a buck off a crapload of babies. I have no interest in doing that -- they get 1-2 girls each just so I can enjoy the process and feel proud seeing the babies hatch. The babies are being traded for website design -- and going to someone that really wants them because she doesn't have them yet. I'll be happy just to see healthy babies hatch. This isn't an income -- my job serves that purpose, that's why I go to work every day. People need to stop thinking they're going to get earn loads of money by breeding these animals. People like you (Kevin), Dan and Colette, Ralph, Brian, and the other forerunners make some money but because you all work your ASSES off to maintain high-quality animals with high standards of cleanliness, health, and husbandry. Your reputations are proof of this and that is why you have the customer base that you do. You dedicate yourselves to bringing in the new mutations from Africa, getting them healthy, and proving them out -- even if it takes 6 years just for one. If you don't want to post pictures of them or tell people what's in a combo morph, then that is YOUR right. You put the work into it, it belongs to you. I would expect the same for some noob small-time breeder (like me) that proved out something new and cool...he/she wouldn't owe it to anyone to post pics if they didn't feel it was ready yet. I could care less if Brian doesn't let go of any new super Lori pics -- that original blurry one I saw was good enough and I still think the animal is incredible. Not seeing new pics doesn't make me like it any less or want one any less.

So to those that laid the foundation for this wonderful hobby, I thank you. This is the one hobby in life that I truly enjoy doing, entirely and completely. I love spending hours in the snake room, even if its just cleaning tubs and changing water. I wouldn't have it if you all weren't doing what you do. And to those that call this "sucking up" -- you're wrong. It's paying respect to those that deserve it and gave YOU the chance to do what you do.
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~* Jen *~

Pink Lady Constrictors

Well, when someone does buy the animal, I'm sure if they can invest the kind of money to buy it...the seller of said supah-secret-combo-morph would divulge the ingredients. Under penalty of eternal damnation if the buyer let slip before the seller was ready to tell the rest of the public...
If any of that made sense.

I know on my end, it's just curiosity as to what makes what. I'm sure a lot of people have a similar curiosity. Not like we all have the money, time, and space to sink into such a project.
Certain snakes might be worth as much as diamonds...but they aren't shiny little rocks. They're animals, albeit really freaking cool looking animals. A lot of people forget that, I think, when the prospect of making $10,000 off a single snake looms up in front of them.

But hey, when they get tired of not getting odds in their favor, and sell all their snakes off... It's the people like me that'll benefit from the drop in prices. It's people like me, like a lot of the small-timers, that are in this because they just plain enjoy it, that will really benefit and add to our collections when everyone else decides to bail.

In the meantime, I guess we gotta deal with the lame whiners who are running out of ways to make a quick, easy buck.

~jenny
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"Polysyllabism in no way insures that what you're saying is actually worth being heard." - Blake (an e-friend of mine)

"I have never made but one prayer to god, a very short one: "O lord, make my enemies ridiculous." And he granted it." - Voltaire

...for the down to earth posts, I always like reading them.

Its funny to me how breeders catch grieft when they don't reveal the ingredients to every dimwit on the internet...c'mon people...if you are serious about spending 4-5 figures with a breeder to get into a new project, do you REALLY think that they are just going to give you a snake without any background info? Sharing info with investors and publishing 'trade secrets' on the internet are two totally different things.

"There's no crying in baseball!!!!" ????

METHINKS!!!!!!!!!!!

K~
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Bloodpythons.com - Whats YOUR Blood Type?