Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I need your help here! I came home today to find one of my dragons unexpectedly dead! There was blood everywhere in the cage, along with what looked like maybe bile. She was EXTREMELY bloated, her eyes bugging out of her head, and blood coming from both her mouth and her cloaca. Now, I know that I should have bagged the body for a necropsy, but I am gravid myself, and I was extremely nausiated and had to have my hubby bury her for me and clean the cage. What I'm wondering is if anyone has ever heard of this? She was in brumation, 3 years old, 400 grams, housed on paper towels. I'm wondering if she might have eaten a paper towel at some point or if maybe she had gastric torsion? Any opinions would be great. Again, I KNOW I should have kept the body for a necropsy, but I just couldn't.

Thanks for all the help,
Jessica

There is a post farther down on this page it was posted by B22 and is "help for a friend" do you think this could be the same problem?

I'm not thinking it is the adenovirus, I've done a decent amount of research on that and I haven't been able to find anything linking that to the way she seems to have died. She didn't lose any weight at all and seemed normal, but it looks like it was pretty painful for her in the end and I just wish that I would have known because I would have much rather had her humanely euthanized than to see her or any other living creature go through what she had to have gone through.
Thanks,
Jessica

I agree with you. I also have researched adenovirus, B22's description and yours do not match any of the symptoms. My thought was you could backchannel him and ask if his friend had gotten a diagnosis. I agree your dragon's symptoms are not identicle to his but there are similarities that concern me. Also keep in mind his is 2nd hand info so may not be 100% accurate and english is not his 1st language. Two posts in a short period of time where the dragon bled from the mouth on this forum? Just an awfully small sample for coincidences.

I will, thank you for all your help. I really appreciate it!

Thanks,
Jessica

Was her intestinal tract cleared out before she went down? She could have died from an infection. Just a thought. Sorry to hear about your dragon. That's terrible. Josh

It seemed to have been cleared, but I don't know now. With all that bile, I am sure that could be possible. Have you ever seen a dragon die like that though? Would an infection cause her to swell everywhere, bleed out and make her eyes really bulgy? Would I have noticed something with that because I really didn't notice anything wrong with her until it happened. I'm really disturbed by it.
Thanks,
Jessica

I dont mean to sound silly but it seems like murder to me. Its hard to believe an illness will cause all of them symtoms at once and in such a short period. By youre description it sounds as if youre dragon had the life squeezed out of it, blood out of both ends and bulgy eyes seems like strangalation, it just doesnt seem like a normal sickness to cause all that trauma. Sorry if I offended you but thats what it seems like to me I just hope you get to the bottom of things, and yea shoud have bagged him and took him to the vet but in situations like that emotions take over, sorry for youre loss.

well Im sorry about your loss ... im sure if my beared dragon died from a sudden death with out you knowing how or why i would be stocked and studded too .

again im sorry about your lost
buldging eyes ? have you ever though of like a human dasease possibly ?? just a thought im no expert.. maybe like a stroke or a trumor or something
people die in there sleep all the time

good luck finding a cause
I wish you the best of luck

Mootish, thank you for your kind words. I'm still searching for an answer. I would think it might be possible for a human born disease to have done this however none of us in the household have any illnesses in any way and no one else who's come in contact with them has any either. Thanks for your help again, I'm gonna keep searching!
Jessica

I'm not trying to sound offended, but there are plenty of illnesses out there. I would never harm any of my lizards. If I cared enough to post to get to the bottom of things, then I would think it would show that I'm not the type of person to squeeze the life out of any living creature and I think it is wrong of anyone to assume that of another person.

Thanks for your help anyways,
Jessica

Sorry if thats what you thought I was thinking, but I didnt mean you I meant someone else. There are people who do those things to animals, and with the description you gave it seems very possible. I cant think of an illness that causes that much trauma, something else could have been poisoning of some kind.

I'm sorry, I'm a little emotional now. I'm pregnant. Thanks for your help. She was in the cage with two other dragons who were fine (and of course now are quarantined) but show no symptoms and are being watched carefully.
Jessica

First off I want to say I am very sorry to hear of your loss. Such a sudden death of an apparently healthy animal must have been hard.

I can understand rushing her off to get a necropsy wasn't possible for you. I know for human females when they are 'gravid' it isn't easy to keep things down normally but to see such a shocking scene I can see your mind would be totally blown off the thought of getting a necropsy.

Trying to guess what caused her death is nearly impossible, unfortunately. At best we can make educated guesses. What may help is you give us a detailed description of your setup (temps, substrate, normal feeding habits, what you feed, how often, etc) as well as the healthy history of your dragon since you owned her. Also mention her age, was she ever bred, did she lay any clutches (fertile or infertile) etc. Was she housed alone? You did mention she was down for brumation, died you stop feeding a day or two before? What was the ambient temperature when she started to brumate?

Next, any changes to her environment and around the immediate area of her cage? Did you or anybody else spray any sort of insecticides etc? Did an apartment connected to yours get fumigated? (vents if not sealed off can allow the toxic insecticides into your home, especially with some apartment buildings and even duplexes, if they share air flow between them, either for heat or AC).

I know one poster suggested it wasn't an accidental death, or death by some previously undiagnosed condition. Is it possible something heavy fell on your dragon? Something heavy falling on your dragon could cause the appearance you have and as it thrashed about it may have managed to dislodge what fell on it. I know you didn't take a good look of the mess (as I got the impression once you saw she was dead, you didn't linger).

There are no human diseases that can be transmitted to dragons and vice versa. What that poster meant was human/animal common diseases, such as cancer, heart attacks, strokes etc. We can infect these ailments on our dragons, nor they to us. But dragons certain can get tumors, have strokes etc.

Internal bleeding can cause bloating, but so can decay. Not sure how long it takes for bloating to take effect in a corpse, but I think it must be at least 12 hours..but I can be wrong.. temperatures certainly will affect how fast cells break down and gases form. Thus the bloating may not be a cause of the death, but a secondary symptom of decay.

As you did indicate there was bile, vomiting certainly will account for the bile. Vomiting can be caused by undigested food rotting in the stomach, intestinal problems (tumers, a cyst that ruptured, internal parasites, gastronomic problems). Any number of organ failures or diseases could cause some or all of these symptoms as shown by how your dragon die.

In the end, it may be we will never know what happened. Unfortunately a necropsy was the best way for a qualified vet to determine what caused the death. It could be viral, tumor, infection, digestion issues, a severe cyst, parasites, physical injury etc. Just no way to know.

If she isn't your only dragon, as a precaution, I suggest taking the rest of your dragons in to see a qualified vet for a complete physical and blood work. This way if your first dragon died due to some disease or parasite, you can make sure your other dragons do not have it. Keep in mind that testing for adenovirus is a special procedure not normally done by standard tests.
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PHLdyPayne

Sure, any help is great. She was housed on paper towels in an enclosure with two other females, provided with a couple of hide boxes and the low is 80 (we live in Florida! hard to get lower temps this time of year). She hadn't eaten before brumating, but I did give her some water on Friday and has not had bugs in months in preparation for brumation. She was 2 1/2, never been bred, never showed any signs of being egg bound, but never laid any infertile eggs.
We have our own house and I don't let any one spray anything around the reptile room except diluted dawn and water, but that hadn't even been used recently. But either way we haven't fumigated recently and have no close neighbors.
She had a rock inside her enclosure, but it was large and on the floor (since we kept them on paper towels) and there was no signs of trauma or thrashing around, the rock was in the same spot it always is.
I think I agree with you, I may never know what happened. Her roomies will be tested however just to be sure. I'd just never heard of anything like this happening! Thank you ahead of time for all of your help, it is greatly appreciated.

Only other thing that comes to mind, though there would be signs..is if she was attacked by one or both cage mates. But giving the condition of her, I don't this to be the case. Bite wounds are more noticeable, and when dragons attack eachother, bites are usually on the tail, limbs, back and sides of the neck.

She could have died while brumating for a few days then was rooted out by her cage mates and dragged about...which give the appearance of blood everywhere and explain her being bloated. But again, this is just guess work.
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PHLdyPayne

>>I need your help here! I came home today to find one of my dragons unexpectedly dead! There was blood everywhere in the cage, along with what looked like maybe bile. She was EXTREMELY bloated, her eyes bugging out of her head, and blood coming from both her mouth and her cloaca. Now, I know that I should have bagged the body for a necropsy, but I am gravid myself, and I was extremely nausiated and had to have my hubby bury her for me and clean the cage. What I'm wondering is if anyone has ever heard of this? She was in brumation, 3 years old, 400 grams, housed on paper towels. I'm wondering if she might have eaten a paper towel at some point or if maybe she had gastric torsion? Any opinions would be great. Again, I KNOW I should have kept the body for a necropsy, but I just couldn't.
>>
>>Thanks for all the help,
>>Jessica
>>

One possibility to think about is that she could of had a clutch of most likely infertile eggs in her when you put her down. It sounds like the inferts could of gone bad inside of her causing a systemic infection. Just my two cents.

Randy
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www.AlphaDragonZ.com

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I just wanted to say thank you to everyone that has tried to help me figure this out! All of your advice has been wonderful and has given me new things to think about.

Thanks again to everyone.
Jessica