Reptile & Amphibian Forums

So, I'm ordering my AP cages this week for my Burm and my boa. While I redesign my living room, I also need to consider the heat source. The heat source issue is the one thing that has been holding back my order. The simple side of me just wants to get the circle screen tops and use dome lights for heating. The herper side of me wants to get belly heat. The pocketbook doesn't want to get thermostats along with the belly heat and pay the electric bill!

So here we go...is the belly heat with the thermostat *that* much better? I'm already spending about $800. Ouch! The cages are in my living room next to the window so they get a lot of natural sunlight, but it's a cool room. I also need to consider humidity. Can I user a cheaper thermostat like ZooMed or Alife which run under $40 instead of the $126 and up line of thermostats?

Separate question: substrate...what to use? My boa is on carpet on top of paper. My Burm is on paper. The Burm urinates (literally passes water and some urates) 2-3 times a week. He's an older fellow with a checkered past. I'd like to keep the humidity up but at the same time, have something easy to clean.

Thanks guys!

The simple side of me just wants to get the circle screen tops and use dome lights for heating. The herper side of me wants to get belly heat. The pocketbook doesn't want to get thermostats along with the belly heat and pay the electric bill!

So here we go...is the belly heat with the thermostat *that* much better?

In my opinion belly heat is worse, especially for heavy bodied snakes in a cool room. The only time I would use or recommend belly heat is in a situation where I only needed a small amount of supplemental heat for a cage in an already warm room.

Here's the problem with belly heat as discussed. Let's say you have a thermostat probe directly on the heat source such that it is essentially between the snake and heat source while the snake is "basking". With a heavy bodied snake the T-stat will fairly quickly reach the set temperature with only a small amount of the snake being warmed up. The top of the snake and the rest of the cage will still be otherwise cool.

So let's take the opposite approach and move the T-stat probe to an elevated area on the warm side of the cage. Now the snake basks on the warm area and the thermostat calls for the heat source to run until the desired temperature is reached.

In this case you have a situation where the snake basically becomes a thermal mass source and the upper parts of its body have to reach a certain temperature in order to satisfy the T-stat. What happens here is the the lower parts of the snakes body, particularly those in contact with the heat source, can become dangerously hot and cause thermal burns. Not surprisingly the heavier the snake the more likely they are to suffer life threatening burns. Even if these extremes can be avoided it is still an unnatural situation for the snake.

If you really believe belly heat is necessary for digestion, then provide that belly heat the way nature does... have a thermal mass source that is heated from above and holds heat. Something like a large ceramic or porcelain tile or even a scrap piece of granite or soapstone from a local fabricator (they love to give these away as it is expensive to discard them any other way). Concrete patio pavers also work and can be sealed so they are easier to clean.

In your situation (financial concerns aside) I would use a radiant heat panel (RHP). Definitely the best way to heat a cage for a heavy bodied snake in a otherwise cool room. But they are expensive and I can appreciate not wanting to add $$ onto a $800 order. Given everything you said I would go with the overhead cutouts and use dome fixtures. But they will be the most expensive to operate over the long haul.
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Currently keeping a small collection of various Gonyosoma. Both G. janseni and G. oxycephala.

I was thinking of RHP when my boa was in the garage, but since he's moving indoors, I didn't think such a heat source would be necessary.

Probably not necessary, but still nice to have.
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Currently keeping a small collection of various Gonyosoma. Both G. janseni and G. oxycephala.

Laura,
I don't think I could've said it any better than Chris did, I feel the same way. Overhead heat is more natural and the use of ceramic tile, granite, etc..., if deemed necessary, works great.

(Good post, Chris, as usual. So, how have you been? I was going to e-mail ya last week but got sidetracked. )

I've always used CHEs (ceramic heating elements) in dome reflectors that sit on top of the cage, with one of the cheap $30 - $40 thermostats. I'm going on the 4th year with the same CHE but had to buy a replacement thermostat after about 1 1/2yrs.

I hope to try a RHP in one of the new cages I'm building since I've heard nothing but good about them. But like you, after spending X-amount of money building the cage I will probably have to, or want to, scrimp when I get to that point.

I will be switching over to one or more of the proportional thermostats, though, because I believe they'll eventually save enough money in electric bills over time to pay for themselves, plus their accuracy and other benefits.

All in all, you shouldn't have a bit of trouble maintaining desired temps for boas/pythons by using a 150-watt CHE in a dome reflector with a ceramic base and a $40 thermostat. I also put a dimmer switch or rheostat on the cord of the dome holding the CHE for extra control. After awhile you'll figure out how to reduce the output in order to keep the temps more consistent.

To aid in humidity, you can place the water bowl directly under the heat source. I think you'll be surprised at how much more humidity one of those cages will hold. There are other tricks that involve a damp towel or towel in the water bowl with a few inches sticking above water level, etc...

A word of caution:
I , personally, don't think it's a good idea to have a cage where it can get direct sunlight from a window, door, etc... For one thing it can get too hot real quick. For another thing, it can be hard to consistently regulate the temperature within the cage.

Take care!
Mike
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Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

I understand your concern about windows. This really isn't that type of situation. I have the typical FL home (or maybe not) that is COMPETELY covered in windows. We have an awesome addition to our house that has 13 floor to ceiling windows. Nice, but it faces south and gets the sun traveling east to west all day. It's my big TV living room, office, herp room, rolled into one. My front living room is very small with a north facing window. It gets maybe an hour of direct sunlight in the very early am, depending on the time of year. It is the easiest room in the house to control the temps in, and the only room with a wall that can contain a Burm and a boa. Otherwise, I'm kickin' the kids out of the rooms or converting my older daughter's loft bed into a snake cage.

I really didn't think overhead would heat a large snake as effectively as belly heat...thanks for setting me straight once again! See what happens when a science teacher gets into boids? Total chaos. I think I'm going with overhead ceramic emitters with a thermostat for heat.

Now, what about substrate?

OK, I've got my foot in my mouth because of my window/cage comments to a science teacher. LOL! You're a good sport for not taking offense.

Substrate:
Sorry, forgot to say something about that. Unless they're show cages, displays, I'm partial to plain ol' newspaper, 3 - 4 layers. Inexpensive, easy to fold to size & lay in, and non-harzardous.

One issue you may have with newspaper is ink stains on the cage floor. But it's always going to be covered up with something anyway, isn't it? Especially considering your burmese's condition, you'll want something quick, easy & inexpensive to change out.

Some people use aspen bedding and it can help retain humidity. Honestly, I rarely ever hear of any problems with reptiles swallowing any of it while eating, but, to me, the potential is there. I've used it before and never had any problems, but I was always conscious of the potential and a bit worriesome over it.

Flip a coin maybe? Ha! Ha!

Catch ya later!
Mike
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Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

Oh, I never get offended unless someone just comes at me with a poor, rank attitude.

I just love talking about science and we could dissect all sorts of critters together and I could talk your ear off about about anatomy and physiology. My degree is in Cardiopulmonary Sciences, but I also did a year of Animal Sciences (large animals) at U of FL and did some pre-med work. I love breaking down big bits of info and sparking interest in my students and seeing those AHA! moments. However, I know very little about the best way to regulate heat in the cage of a Burmese python or about the breeding behavior of boids (but I know about their biochemistry and organs, LOL). I'm always gathering new info and am never offended by someone trying to teach me!

I always appreciate the advice offered here, even if I have to reveal the truth about my limited knowledge to obtain it!

I'm a big proponent of heat panels. A bit pricey, but they work great for the larger enclosures fro my burms.
I am also ordering some more commercial made plastic cages.
I'll leave the manufacturers name out of the post, but I need to save a few extra dollars to add the RHPs and install them when the cages come in.
I already have a thermostat that can control 6 panels. Wasn't all that expensive either.
Do to a major jump in electricity costs here, I need to heat my cages in the most economical, and efficient way.
For me...it's RHP.
And I use the largest I can fit into the cage so they are running as little as possible.

>>I understand your concern about windows. This really isn't that type of situation. I have the typical FL home (or maybe not) that is COMPETELY covered in windows. We have an awesome addition to our house that has 13 floor to ceiling windows. Nice, but it faces south and gets the sun traveling east to west all day. It's my big TV living room, office, herp room, rolled into one. My front living room is very small with a north facing window. It gets maybe an hour of direct sunlight in the very early am, depending on the time of year. It is the easiest room in the house to control the temps in, and the only room with a wall that can contain a Burm and a boa. Otherwise, I'm kickin' the kids out of the rooms or converting my older daughter's loft bed into a snake cage.
>>
>>I really didn't think overhead would heat a large snake as effectively as belly heat...thanks for setting me straight once again! See what happens when a science teacher gets into boids? Total chaos. I think I'm going with overhead ceramic emitters with a thermostat for heat.
>>
>>Now, what about substrate?

Hehe I always thought most Floridians didn't need to heat there cages most of the year but I see that you are brining the snake in doors. Its kinda of ironic really you live in a tropical environment which a python loves but we don't, so you have to create a tropical environment inside your home which at the same time you are trying to keep said tropical environment out, wow that just blew my mind hehe.

Anyway RHP from what I have been reading are the best for keeping eclectic costs down and last a very long time. They are far better at energy efficiency then any incandescent bulb or Ceramic bulb would be. Spend the $60-$80 bucks on a RHP and you will see money saved down the road. Also newspaper cant be beat its free, snakes like it and easy to clean.

Once I move my cages over to AP or maybe Boaphile all my cages will use RHP...
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Jason A.
"Long time Herper, first year Breeder `07."

It is ironic, but 1). The 'winter season' is arriving and 2) If he's in the garage, will I pay attention to him?

The temps do dip down into the 40's and 50's once in a while. My main concern is keeping an eye on him. If he's out of sight, how much interaction will he get vs being in my front room.

If I keep them all in the garage, I will keep the boa in his wooden cage and add an RHP.

(Good post, Chris, as usual. So, how have you been? I was going to e-mail ya last week but got sidetracked.)

Thanks and doing well. Look forward to hearing from you. Enough so that I think I'll go do a quick email search and beat you to it.
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Currently keeping a small collection of various Gonyosoma. Both G. janseni and G. oxycephala.

Thanks again for the replies. I realize that I have asked similar questions down below..sorry for being repetitive. I guess I'm in an obsessive mode with these darn cages and I'm indecisive while trying to get it right.