Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I have a pair of 2005s and a pair of what appears to be young adults of indeterminate age. What is the minimum age/size to try to breed these guys??

Also, I know they are supposed to be late breeders/layers. Does this mean I cool them late? Or do I cool them with my other snakes,and they just take a long time post warmup for activity??

Thanks.

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Lloyd Heilbrunn

Palm Beach Gardens, Fl.

Lloyd I bred several pairs for the first time when they were 4 years old and about 3.5 to 4ft. I had 4 females all lay good fertile clutches at that age and length. I raised them really slow and waited rather long before breeding them. With all the stories you hear about people having them start regurging after their first year producing I was extremely careful and slow with them. After all 4 layed good clutches their first year (last year) and all 4 females laid a good clutch again this year, I am glad I waited as long as I did. I start them back feeding after laying with small meals and do it much more slowly than I do with other species just to be careful.
I do and I think most others just brumate them at the same time they do their other colubrids.
Some people have them go a little earlier but they just dont seem to be in the mood to breed until mid summer in general for me. I dont even start introducing my pairs together intil about the end of June. Hope this helps and good luck. Randy Whittington

Damn Randy those are some sweet subocs there!!!!
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Genesis 1:1

Thanks.
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Lloyd Heilbrunn

Palm Beach Gardens, Fl.

Loyd, this may not be the popular answer, but it is the only answer I can give based on my experience sucsessfully breeding subocs since the early nineties. I always tried to raise my offspring to be breadable at 18 months. i found that with subocs as well as most snakes if an individual has the capability to eat and grow quickly enough to sucsessfully reproduce at 18 months, they will be your most prolific breaders throughout their breeding lifetime. in my opinion this is because they are very fit animals to have been able to grow and reproduce so quickly. sometimes a clutchmate that wasn't feeding aggressively enough to reach breeding size in 18 months wasn't even breeding at 2 1/2 years. I never had any problems with regurgitation during the fattenning up period after egg laying (or any other time for that matter). My experience is based on about nine 18 month old females that I hatched and raised to breeding size and four that wern't able to breed at 18 months old. Some were from a wild caught pair, some were from captive hatched and raised adults descended from that wild caught pair. I made a determination when a snake went into hibernation (okay, okay, brumation) whether I thought it was big enough to breed the following season (approx 32" ). The ones that I thought were big enough always bred the following season with good results. I never had an eggbound female an only an occaisional infertile egg here and there. I successfully bred subocs from 1989 - 1995 then stopped working with them (wish I hadn't) I am now working with them again and will be breeding them next year. another rule of thumb for me is to introduce snakes after each shed to see if there is breeding interest. each has an individual biological clock and we don't necessarily know how it wound except by viewing visual results based on introductions (the best way). I once had a black pine snake female that resisted shedding after brumation. I kept feeding her and kept waiting for a shed, but it wouldn't happen. Finally I thought to introduce a male, breeding was immediate. if I had waited much longer I may have missed her breeding opportunity for that season. every year thereafter she bred before a post brumation shed. granted, that was the only example i ever had of such early breeding, but it convinced me that we just never necsessarily know when it's time for an individual female to be receptive. which ever advice you take Loyd, good luck with your breeding project. Rusty

Thanks
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Lloyd Heilbrunn

Palm Beach Gardens, Fl.

Everything said here is right on.

My two cents worth:

1. Never offer them prey that was offered to or refused by your other snakes, be it subocs or whatever.

2. Housekeeping / water bowl changes? Do the subocs first.

For some reason, the smallest infection of any kind gets magnified with the subs.

Mike