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this male normal was born may 07, after every shed his colors have gotten brighter and better. this morning i looked in on him and was amazed at what i was looking at. i have heard of them shedding their colors befor but it had never happend to me. does this happen often? what causes this to happen? is it permanent? the first pic is what he used to look like and the rest are now. any input to this?

this is him now

Neat!
What is he?
He looks like a Hog Island/suri cross.
Aaron

normal columbian, i thought!

By the saddles, looks definitely like some sort of BCC cross.. Looks like you've got some sort of ?ontogenetic? calico thing goin on.. Very cool looking boa..

i forgot to say that LAST NIGHT he was his normal color. this happened in one shed.

This opens a whole new can of worms.. Not a good sign.. When your female had the loose stool, how'd it smell? Kinda like death? Been there, dealt with that.. Toxic rats..

"TOXIC RATS"!
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Ty
Rat Race Solutions
www.ratracesolutions.com

Well.. I'm not sure who's selling them but I do know these "toxic rats" are coming from laboratory surplus stock.. With the growing number of reptile enthusiasts, there becomes a growing need for rodents.. If production levels aren't meeting the demand, laboratory surplus fills the gap.. Every once in a while, someone stumbles across a "bad batch".. Some of the symptoms are loose stool, ridiculously disgusting smelling stool, stool smeared about the entire enclosure, regurgitation, dramatic loss of color in one shed and sometimes, DEATH...

there was a forum discussing another type of 'toxic' rat. The "Zucker" rat, right? There was a large line of replies on the topic a month ago maybe. A rat bred for all kinds of genetic deficiencies allowing it to become fat, or HUGE rather LOL!, and for some snakes it can cause digestive issues (Boas in particular I think I remember reading). This is not word for word, you may be able to dig up the topic though. I am sure that is just another way a rat can become, so to speak, 'toxic.' I had a boa shed off dime-sized spots of white once, but I have only ordered once from a large rat supplier. So... in my case, it could have been something else, stress maybe... but it seems logical that either thing could cause a snake to undergo some mental/physical ailments. My two cents... (which is becoming a common phrase here! )
Take care,
Steph S.
ps- if it is just a change brought on by its parentage, it looks kind of neat, otherwise, I hope it recovers!

Two different things.. Zuckers look like a blimp, toxic rats look normal.

Don't know if its rats, but I'm pretty sure its some sort of toxin. Boas shed their color when the kidneys are overloaded by something toxic to the animal's normal physiology. The boa's body then tries to rid itself of the toxin through its skin, by shedding. The toxin overload initiates the shed. Only problem is, the shed isn't normal. The dermis is shed as well as the epidermis. Whether or not that's from a premature shed (sloughing epidermis before the process is complete) or damage to the dermis from the presence of toxins, I don't know.
If its what I think it is, your snake will never look like it used to. Its skin has been scarred.
I've heard of very fatty rats doing this. I have personal experience with overdosed antibiotics doing this. Unlike the calico effect, the obverdosed antibiotics left the skin black in places.
Mucho mucho hydration may help reduce the damage if initiated prior to the shed.
jsc

What makes the rat toxic? Does anyone know?

Whos to say. Consider this - What happened first? Regurge or foul stool happened first. Why? Ate something bad more than likely. We do the same thing when we eat something foul.
We are also able to flush our systems through our kidneys by urination and rehydration. Snakes are different. They produce Urea and Uric Acid -- practically solids.

Sometimes a regurge will be adequate. Sometimes expulsion of foul stool may be adequate. Sometimes both are required.
Sometimes its necessary for the snake to shed its skin, as well as the two above. Sometimes all three aren't enough.

The other day I replied to a post inquiring as to rodent thawing methods. So, I went through my rendition on thawing them in a bucket or bowl of hot water. The guy that posted after me had what seemed to be a very simple and straight forward method. I got the impression he felt I was long winded and overly complicated. Truth is, my method is much simpler and much quicker. And much safer. You'd be surprised how leaving a rat out for 3 hours becomes 8 hours, before you know it. Not many people are going to throw that ripe rat out and start again, are they?

How does this relate to the current topic? Consider this -- if there's something bad inside that rat, setting it out on the counter until it reaches room temperature is only going to ripen, ferment and increase the toxicity of whatever is wrong with it. Does that make sense? Go back to the paragraph above.

Why does a Boid regurge when given too large a meal at too low an environmental temperature? Because the food item ferments in the snake's stomach faster than the snake can digest it and it becomes toxic (putrid). If the rat is set out at room remperature to thaw, the process is taking place before feeding, getting a headstart, and only getting worse as the rat sits out for hours.

What happens when a snake eats too fatty a rat? The fat is undigestable, becomes rancid, putrid, toxic in the snake's gut. Many many bacteria produce toxins as a byproduct of their normal metabolism. Heck, ammonia is toxic. That's just one of the most common byproducts of our own bodily function.

I believe the fat rat theory is valid. I believe it is one of many things that can make a boa sick. When you have a snake that in nature is naturally lean and you stuff him sausage fat, with nowhere to move about and exercize, you are creating a reptilian veal calf. His liver is pate fwa gra. If you add an additional fatty rat to the mix and he's alredy got enough fat to last a season, bad things are going to happen.

Boas were designed [by our Creator] to have a much leaner diet in life -- lizards, frogs, scrawny birds, with long periods between mamallian feasts.

I once sold a kingsnake to a fellow. This guy had a rodent problem in his apartment. He put out poison bait for the mice. He found a dead mouse and he then fed it to his snake. Fresh killed is better than live, right lol? Next morning he had a belly up kingsnake. Go figure.

All I can say in summary, based on my previous experience, is that when they shed their colors, it's an internal problem.
When they shed from an external environmental irritant, there's melanin production and the snake winds up darker. Same as we do when we get a sunburn. We peal and we get darker. Melanin is the skin's mechanism for protection.

Sorry to be so long-winded.
jsc

You're the man/woman! Awesome post!

.
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BASICALLYBOAS.com
'Specializing in True RedTails & Designer Boa Morphs'

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I agree, this was a very informative/impressive post... Some people, such as myself appreciate "longwindedness."
thanks,
Matt

I have had a few snakes regurg and when the crawl around in the mess their skin is discolor like that after the next shed. I've had 2 bounce 100% back and the other didn't recover. I recently sold Ash Lopez a female RG with the same problem. When it shed while it was in the bag he thought WTF this isn't the animal I ordered and promptly send her back only to have her shed again and look perfectly normal. I've had others like the one I sold to Joe Rollo that never gained the color back it just looks like a dark calico RG but he breeds a couple different female every year. This happened about 2 years ago. That is just my personal experience. It looks like it regurged and crawled around and the stomach acids affected it's skin.

BORN MAY 05

not shure if its even possible but it almost looks like he absorbed ink from the newsprint, to me that would be the only thing that makes any sense

definitly no absorbtion here!!!!!

>>not shure if its even possible but it almost looks like he absorbed ink from the newsprint, to me that would be the only thing that makes any sense
>>
Uh...you're not serious right? Ink absorbed through the skin? Anyhow...there IS a very good, detailed explanation, if you msg. me I'd be happy to fill you in on the cause.
~Robbin

I think your Boa could have possible had a TOXIC rat. I know many people who have had their snakes do this and the common ground from most was that they were getting their feeders from the same place. I myself had this happen also and my Boa did recover and gain some of her color back but not all. This is just my opinion and you can do with it what you wish.

np

Is it against some Kingsnake policy to say the name of the food source? I have asked about this before and no one wants to say. I personally feel like if this is true we should be warned.
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Ty
Rat Race Solutions
www.ratracesolutions.com

Although it could be something like Calico coming out, or something else, if you said it happened overnight after a shed, I can only think of one thing.

I've seen this several times in Boas.

Whenever they endure extreme topical stress - ie. Overheating, extremely dank/dirty/moist conditions, rolling around in its own regurge (stomach acids), this triggers a shed cycle which then comes off prematurely, sometimes removing color and/or scales.

I've seen this with a hypo that was overheated, left on a doorstep in the sun.
That guy was a colombian hypo and then looked like a dark central american.

I also saw this with a red group pastel that was able to roll around in its regurge, and also with a boa that was attacked by a mouse.

Did the animal undergo stress like this recently?

Here's the red group before and after.

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Thanks and take care - Joe Rollo
'Tis not the stongest of the species that will eventually survive, nor the most intelligent, but the one most responsive to change' Charles Darwin

i have had this boa since he was 4 months old, he has never been through any stressful conditions. the only bad or dirty thing that has happened was about two weeks ago. the female that he was with had one of the xxl rats that caused her to have a runny nasty stool but the cage and the snakes were cleaned with in hours.

can you tell me where you get your feeders? you can send me a message if you want

where you think they are. PLEASE!
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Ty
Rat Race Solutions
www.ratracesolutions.com

np
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THERES NO BEAUTY LIKE THE BEAUTY OF A TRUE REDTAIL

np
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Thanks and take care - Joe Rollo
'Tis not the stongest of the species that will eventually survive, nor the most intelligent, but the one most responsive to change' Charles Darwin

your rodent company.

...In one of my surinames. She had just bred and was going back on feed when a few weeks (maybe three weeks into it) she regurgitated and then went immediately into a shed. That shed she lost all of her color. She started out like this as far as color goes...

then after the shed she looked like this.....

As far as I could figure out the rat was toxic (and/or) a bit too large for her so quickly after her delivery which caused the regurge. She may have crawled over the regurgitated rat and the digestive enzimes my have covered her and chemically burned her.

As far as it being perminant, it looks like her color is getting better each time she sheds.....this is how she looks now (a few months later)...

Sorry for the long read and good luck with your boa
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I have a Peruvian yearling that had a very messy stool smeared all over the cage. The next shed he looked like a "negative" of himself with tail colors that turned peach from maroon, ground color very black and white, no longer tan. Now a month later he's slowly starting to regain some original look. I don't know why it happens, but it's not genetic and presumably not permanent. Here's an older before pic, and now. mark

now

it happens....saw an import do the same thing, I think its an allergic reaction to some type of beddings/chemicals....ball pythons do it all the time......

the female that was in the cage with this male at the time has just shed about an hour ago and the same thing has happened to her, just not as bad. i think you guys have hit the nail on the head with this one. a few of you are concerned about TOXIC RATS but i am not shure if it is a toxic rat or rats that are just too large for boas digestive systems. if any one would like to talk more about the rats you can email me or call me at 703 474 6722. thanks to all of your responses! mickey

Too large of a food item would not cause your snakes color to fall off... Loose, deathly smelling stool, spread around the cage, regurgitation and dramatic loss of color in one shed are signs of toxic rats.

Here are a few pix of one of my friends females that had the nasty stool, then the dramatic shed.

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Randall L Turner Jr.
Boas make the world go round.

thank you christian from R I .COM i got your email and read the imputs. thanks to all. i can be reached at boas4u@verizon.net or 703 474 6722

but this snake is a cross, just havent figured out of what....
his color change was over a course of months, but it was different.

this is what he looked like 3/22/07

this is what he looked like 6/5/07

this is what he looked like in august....

this is what he looked like 2 weeks ago....

i want to add i got this snake may 2007, before then i dont know the exact conditions he was kept in.

this is becoming a much larger problem.. Considerably understandable with increasing number of reptiles produced each year.. We need a few "mom and pop" rat suppliers to step up to the plate for those who can't produce their own.. I only see this problem getting worse with nationwide rodent suppliers. There's a huge gap to fill for "home grown" rat suppliers and I know I'd pay double what the large suppliers charge if I knew where my rats were coming from and what they were exposed to.

the past year i have been getting my rats from a breeder down the road, my snakes seem to eat better when i use his rats.
he also breeds quail and different chickens