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Crossed a thornscrub rat, Pantherophis (Elaphe) emoryi meahllmorum, with a Miami corn, Pantherophis (Elaphe) guttatus guttatus. The thornscrub female was a reverse-striped from Duval Co, TX, stock. The Miami male was possible hypo (at least het.)

Here's one of the eight offspring...


The babies are possibly het for hypo. Haven't proven the father to be hypo, yet. I think they make interesting rootbeers, since both parents had a light ground color, the female was largely striped and had some laterally, split blotches, and the male had bright, reddish saddles. The ventrums were interesting too, and the babies are intermediate bt. the two.

Let me know if you have any comments...

- Terry
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Ratsnake Haven...researching ratsnakes since 1988

Ratsnake Haven Group...an information providing list site.

Ratsnake Foundation...ratsnake forums.

>>Crossed a thornscrub rat, Pantherophis (Elaphe) emoryi meahllmorum, with a Miami corn, Pantherophis (Elaphe) guttatus guttatus. The thornscrub female was a reverse-striped from Duval Co, TX, stock. The Miami male was possible hypo (at least het.)
>>
>>Here's one of the eight offspring...
>>
>>
>>The babies are possibly het for hypo. Haven't proven the father to be hypo, yet. I think they make interesting rootbeers, since both parents had a light ground color, the female was largely striped and had some laterally, split blotches, and the male had bright, reddish saddles. The ventrums were interesting too, and the babies are intermediate bt. the two.
>>
>>Let me know if you have any comments...
>>
>>- Terry
>>-----
>>Ratsnake Haven...researching ratsnakes since 1988
>>
>>Ratsnake Haven Group...an information providing list site.
>>
>>Ratsnake Foundation...ratsnake forums.

hey Terry
looking good. Cool looking little rootbeer.
A lot of people just look at rootbeers as by-products but I really think they are a great "stand-alone" morph.
have you seen this little rootbeer from the 50/50 meahllmorum/corn rootbeer bred to one of my cinnamons?
This guy is het hypo

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Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
"Resistance is futile"
Jimmy Johnson
(Draybar)
Draybars Snakes

_____

Hey, very cool, Jimmy. Can't wait to see the hypos.

Here's another of my new rootbeers. The Miami gave them some reddish-brown coloration....


You might be able to see a little striping in this individual.

Cheers....TC
-----
Ratsnake Haven...researching ratsnakes since 1988

Ratsnake Haven Group...an information providing list site.

Ratsnake Foundation...ratsnake forums.

>>Hey, very cool, Jimmy. Can't wait to see the hypos.
>>
>>Here's another of my new rootbeers. The Miami gave them some reddish-brown coloration....
>>
>>
>>You might be able to see a little striping in this individual.
>>
>>Cheers....TC
>>-----

I have had several discussions about using Miamis.
I can see now that it is a GREAT combo.
That rootbeer is smokin'
-----
Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
"Resistance is futile"
Jimmy Johnson
(Draybar)
Draybars Snakes

_____

>>I have had several discussions about using Miamis.
>>I can see now that it is a GREAT combo.
>>That rootbeer is smokin'
>>-----
>>Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
>>"Resistance is futile"
>>Jimmy Johnson

Thanks, Jimmy. Your new line looks great too. Keep us posted on their progress.

TC

That's a great looking hatchling
Tom Stevens
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TomsSnakes.com

Thanks, Tom.

- Terry

I still want that snake Jimmy!!!! lol
If you get any next year like it, let me know.
-----
****Misty****

www.sneakyserpents.com

"I try to take one day at a time but sometimes several days attack me at once"

>>hey Terry
>>looking good. Cool looking little rootbeer.
>>A lot of people just look at rootbeers as by-products but I really think they are a great "stand-alone" morph.
>>have you seen this little rootbeer from the 50/50 meahllmorum/corn rootbeer bred to one of my cinnamons?
>>This guy is het hypo

Jimmy, did you get any hypos from that breeding? If that 50/50 is the one I traded you, then that guy was het. for hypo.

- Terry

nice, ive never heard of thornscrub, ill have to check it out.
-----
jake barney

my addiction:
1.1 ball pythons
0.2.1 corns
1.0 cal king
0.0.1 wc garter

>>nice, ive never heard of thornscrub, ill have to check it out.
>>-----
>>jake barney

Thanks, Jake. Not many breeders use the term, but it works for me. "Thornscrub" refers to the habitat type in South Texas, which is where Pantherophis emoryi meahllmorum is from mostly.

I'll attach a pic of the mother of this clutch. This is one from when she was younger. I need to update my photos of her...

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Ratsnake Haven...researching ratsnakes since 1988

Ratsnake Haven Group...an information providing list site.

Ratsnake Foundation...ratsnake forums.

>>nice, ive never heard of thornscrub, ill have to check it out.

That has to be a made-up name (or one so old it shouldn't be used), and it only describes a PORTION of the habitat where they are found. Matter of fact, they are found in VERY different habitats over much of Mexico. Most people think where the come from in PART of Texas applies to all meahllmorums, but that is very mistaken.

Anyway, the actual accepted name is southwestern ratsnake. Many hobbyists use "southern plains ratsnakes" instead, and I have seen this name in some journals. It isn't the "officially accepted" common name, though.

KJ
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KJUN Snakehaven

>>>>nice, ive never heard of thornscrub, ill have to check it out.
>>
>>That has to be a made-up name (or one so old it shouldn't be used), and it only describes a PORTION of the habitat where they are found. Matter of fact, they are found in VERY different habitats over much of Mexico. Most people think where the come from in PART of Texas applies to all meahllmorums, but that is very mistaken.
>>
>>Anyway, the actual accepted name is southwestern ratsnake. Many hobbyists use "southern plains ratsnakes" instead, and I have seen this name in some journals. It isn't the "officially accepted" common name, though.
>>
>>KJ
>>-----
>> KJUN Snakehaven

Since when is there an officially accepted "common name?" I don't think Southwestern Ratsnake describes it very well, too ambiguous. I used to use Southern Great Plains Ratsnake, as it is closely related to the Great Plains Ratsnake, but the habitat doesn't match up well. The thornscrub matches up pretty well, and when you say "thornscrub" everyone pretty much has an idea of where you're talking about.

Now, since you know a lot about Mexico, how about describing some of these very different habitats they live in down there. I've never heard of anyone else ever trying to describe their Mexican habitat. Besides, what difference does it make if a species or subspecies has more than one common name, as long as readers know what you're talking about? It'll come out in the wash in the long run.

Cheers...TC

>>Since when is there an officially accepted "common name?" I

Ummm, for decades. There are "officially recognized and adopted" common and scientific names published by "the committee on standard English and scientific names." I believe B. I. Crother chaired the group for their last publication for reptiles and amphibians of North American north of Mexico. I'm really surprised you aren't aware such a committee exists and determines the SOLE official name.

>>Besides, what difference does it make if a species or subspecies has more than one common name, as long as readers know what you're talking about?

I actually am shocked to read this. I am surprised this idea can still exist post-1950. Heck, Linnaeus started the binomial system of classification, in part, to avoid the confusion of differing common names. Common names later became standardized (scientifically - hobbyists still try to throw a wrench in the mechanisms too often) to further avoid the errors in miscommunication. NOW, I'm hearing the idea that the errors are unimportant or nonexistent???? I must have misunderstood what you were getting to, because I can't believe I'm interpreting that statement correctly.
KJ
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KJUN Snakehaven

Me...>>>>Since when is there an officially accepted "common name?" I
>>
KJ...>>Ummm, for decades. There are "officially recognized and adopted" common and scientific names published by "the committee on standard English and scientific names." I believe B. I. Crother chaired the group for their last publication for reptiles and amphibians of North American north of Mexico. I'm really surprised you aren't aware such a committee exists and determines the SOLE official name.
>>
Me...The subspecies, meahllmorum, has only existed since 1994 (Smith et al.) Since then I've only read a couple papers including this subspecies. I didn't know the name, "Southwestern Ratsnake", was made official. I didn't even know the subspecies was fully accepted, yet. I'm not an academic, ya know, like I assume you are. I suppose it's big-headed of me to think I had a more descriptive name.

ME...>>>>Besides, what difference does it make if a species or subspecies has more than one common name, as long as readers know what you're talking about?
>>
KJ...>>I actually am shocked to read this. I am surprised this idea can still exist post-1950. Heck, Linnaeus started the binomial system of classification, in part, to avoid the confusion of differing common names. Common names later became standardized (scientifically - hobbyists still try to throw a wrench in the mechanisms too often) to further avoid the errors in miscommunication. NOW, I'm hearing the idea that the errors are unimportant or nonexistent???? I must have misunderstood what you were getting to, because I can't believe I'm interpreting that statement correctly.
>>KJ
>>-----
>> KJUN Snakehaven

ME...You said, "Linnaeus started the binomial system of classification, in part, to avoid the confusion of differing common names." That's right. That's why we have the scientific names, to avoid confusion. How many would have misunderstood, if I had used Southwestern Ratsnake, and not used the scientific name? Heck, even the scientific name is confusing, since some are using Pantherophis or Elaphe, for genus, and some are using emoryi or guttatus for species, and many still don't believe meahllmorum is a subspecies. The whole thing is whacky!

KJ, I didn't say errors were unimportant. I just didn't think your term, Southwestern Ratsnake, was well accepted, or official. I guess many of us are now getting an education on terminology. Would you mind pointing me in the right direction for finding the "officially adopted common names?" Hopefully, it is on the web somewhere, as that would be much more accessible to most hobbyists.

Thanks for the heads-up.

- TC

I did a little research on the web and found two sources for standard common names. So, for those of you that are still waiting to see if this question was resolved, here goes.

I earlier said:
>>>>Since when is there an officially accepted "common name?" I
>>

KJ replied:
>>Ummm, for decades. There are "officially recognized and adopted" common and scientific names published by "the committee on standard English and scientific names." I believe B. I. Crother chaired the group for their last publication for reptiles and amphibians of North American north of Mexico. I'm really surprised you aren't aware such a committee exists and determines the SOLE official name.
>>

My reply:
The info was found in a pdf paper, "Scientific and Standard English Names of Amphibians and Reptiles of North America North of Mexico: Update," 2003, by Dr. B. I. Crother et al, at the Southeastern Lousiana University (selu.edu). Interestingly, the committee agrees with Dr. Burbrink (2002) that no subspecies of the Great Plains Ratsnake qualifies as a subspecies, so no common names exist, other than for the nominate form.

I thought that was especially illuminating, since the group does not recognize the work of Utiger et al. (2002) and retains the genus name of Elaphe, rather than accepting his data and using Pantherophis. In other words, no splitting seems to be allowed by this group.

My second reference was found at CNAH:
It is in a pdf paper called, "Standard Common and Scientific Names For North American Amphibians, Turtles, Reptiles and Crocodilians," by Collins and Taggart, 2002. In it Elaphe emoryi meahllmorum is recognized, but they call it "The Southern Plains Rat Snake". That leaves me a little confused about where the authority for "Southwestern Rat Snake" comes from?

So, it looks to me like there's not much agreement even amongst academics. Maybe there should be, but I think that takes time. Also, there's likely several different groups of academics that don't agree with each other how the taxonomy and nomenclature should go. I'm not taking sides, just making my own humble suggestions when I get creative on my own, such as with a common name.

Cheers...TC
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Ratsnake Haven...researching ratsnakes since 1988

Ratsnake Haven Group...an information providing list site.

Ratsnake Foundation...ratsnake forums and galleries.

This argument seems beneath you, KJ, and I'm really surprised. I, like Terry, am not an academic but I mean come on! Made-up common name? Aren't they all 'made-up'? Can't there be more than one common name? Red rat snake = corn snake, Emory's rat = Great plains rat. Dixon and Werler call them southwestern rat snakes in their field guide, but this is the only reference I've seen calling them this. I call them thornscrubs, southern plains and southwestern rats alternately, depending on my mood, or the audience. Most of my fellow herpers in my county know them as southern plains or southern 'great' plains rats. Also, lots of other Texas field herpers call them thornscrub rats. Who better to determine what the 'common name' should be? The name southwestern rat snake could apply to Elaphe (Pantherophis) bairdi, Elaphe (Bogertophis) subocularis and Elaphe (Senticolis) triaspis intermedia, since they are all from the southwestern US. In the part of South Texas where meahllmorum occurs, the only other blotched rat snake is the Texas rat snake, and it is easily distinguished from meahllmorum (and only occurs in a small portion of its range). The same way that meahllmorum may be found in habitats other than scrubland in Mexico, Texas rats are found in places other than Texas, like Louisiana.

-Toby Brock

>> Who better to determine what the 'common name' should be?

I already answered that. I don't agree with many of their choices/decisions, but science isn't a democracy. The reason for an approved common name is to PREVENT each region from having its own common name and hindering communication across regions. Otherwise, all Elaphe would just be called "chicken snakes" since that term is applied to all of them (plus many of the gophers) over some part of their range. Defending this bogus name is like defending "Congo Eel" as a name for Cottonmouths in south Louisiana.

Sorry. I know us hobbyists like to think we are more important in the grand scheme of the universe (heck, I'm a solipsist at heart!) than we are, but I don't think we help ANYTHING by making the confusion of common names worse instead of better. Does anyone REALLY believe we are making things LESS confusing by calling the same snake by different names?

That's rhetorical. I don't really care. You guys (plural to all humans - not anyone in particular) are more than welcome to believe and behave however you want. I'll take the side of academia...even if I standalone.
KJ

The previous post reads a lot more asinine/arrogant than I intended. Lack of voice connotations or something. Oh, I'm not arguing that I am asinine and arrogant - just that I didn't mean (or WANT) that particular post to sound that way......lol. Sorry - that's the problem with pure text posts. None of the particulars are wrong - it just has a bad tone - which wasn't my intent - when I re-read it in its entirety. Oh, well. I'll accept the consequences, because I had zero more to add to the discussion, anyway.

Just as an FYI, I personally hate the name for meahllmorum. I'd rather have "Northern Emory's ratsnake" and "Southern Emory's ratsnake" - if I was in charge of the known 'verse. But, I'm not!
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KJUN Snakehaven

LOL, Well, I'm not offended in the least KJ (got a chuckle over the Congo eel thing). I personally agree with you about pure text posts, and that tone is easily misconstrued.

Okay, yes I agree (mostly) that the official naming of creatures is (and should be) in the hands of taxonomists, but... Can't we and shouldn't we try to influence the academics to name things in a way that makes sense for the animal? I like Northern and Southern Emory's, and that seems very concise and to the point to me. Who do we talk to to promote ideas like this? Also, where is the reference that says southwestern rat snake is the official common name? When I'm speaking to people 'in the know', I generally refer to this snake as meahllmorum, and actually use it more than any of the common names.

Btw, can you point me in the direction of papers or works that discuss meahllmorum and its habitat in Mexico? I am very interested in this, as this is my favorite New World rat snake.

-Toby

KJ said...
>>Just as an FYI, I personally hate the name for meahllmorum. I'd rather have "Northern Emory's ratsnake" and "Southern Emory's ratsnake" - if I was in charge of the known 'verse. But, I'm not!

Now that name I could agree with.

I know academia is not a democracy, but WE are! Why shouldn't hobbyists have a say? I'm very sure that what we do/say on these forums influences herpetology in some ways, in the grand scheme of things. If I didn't believe that I would lose part of my reasons for participating here.

Sorry for butting in on your strand guys, but I couldn't pass up the chance to comment on this point. Accentuate the positive.

- TC

If anyone butted in Terry, it was me! LOL Besides it's an open forum = butting in is open to all. My personal opinion on common names is that we (hobbyists) are creating new ones all the time. Example: meahlly/meahllies = meahllmorum. Maybe not such a good thing in the eyes of some, but easier than typing southwestern rat snake all the time. Speaking of academics and hobbyists, am I correct in my thinking that Klaus-Dieter Schulz is not an academic, yet his monograph is respected by hobbyists and academics alike?

-Toby

>>If anyone butted in Terry, it was me! LOL Besides it's an open forum = butting in is open to all. My personal opinion on common names is that we (hobbyists) are creating new ones all the time. Example: meahlly/meahllies = meahllmorum. Maybe not such a good thing in the eyes of some, but easier than typing southwestern rat snake all the time. Speaking of academics and hobbyists, am I correct in my thinking that Klaus-Dieter Schulz is not an academic, yet his monograph is respected by hobbyists and academics alike?
>>
>>-Toby

Good point, Toby, that forum goers are often trying to create common names that are easier to work with or more "catchy". I think KJ was kinda pointing that out too and that he expected a little more from me, though, because I've had more training than most forum goers. In retrospect, if I put myself in the position of writing an academic paper, I probably would have used "Southwestern Ratsnake", because that common name had been used before and was more accepted. However, as a forum goer, I didn't expect to be treated as an authority on the subject.

As for your observations about Mr. Schulz, if you look at the preface of his monograph, affectionately called "The Bible" by some of us ratsnake lovers, you'll see that he has actually gone into some depth on that subject. According to Mr. Schulz, Germans have had a long tradition of academics and amateurs working together. Sometimes hobbyists can add things to the pool of knowledge that academics can't, or go places academics don't have time for, etc. Anyway, he is technically a non-academic, but he is well educated, and has a super excellent background in working with the various ratsnakes, especially some of the exotic Asian ones. He also wrote the monograph with a little help from another writer, some artists, and with scientific consultants, including Notker Helfenberger.

Thanks for the discussion...

- TC

>>As for your observations about Mr. Schulz, if you look at the preface of his monograph, affectionately called "The Bible" by some of us ratsnake lovers, you'll see that he has actually gone into some depth on that subject. According to Mr. Schulz, Germans have had a long tradition of academics and amateurs working together. Sometimes hobbyists can add things to the pool of knowledge that academics can't, or go places academics don't have time for, etc. Anyway, he is technically a non-academic, but he is well educated, and has a super excellent background in working with the various ratsnakes, especially some of the exotic Asian ones. He also wrote the monograph with a little help from another writer, some artists, and with scientific consultants, including Notker Helfenberger.
>>
>>Thanks for the discussion...
>>
>>- TC

Yes, I've read it, and I think it would be great if academics and amateurs would work together more, here in the U.S.

-Toby

Hi Terry,

Long time no see. I'm a member of NOAH and you went with the group on a herping trip to the Carolinas a long time ago.

Anyhow, I glad you're still working with rat snakes. It would sure be neat if someone did some sort of photo essay on the variability of Great Plains Rat Snakes. I don't think most people realize how many different "looks" they have.

Here's a photo of my adult female "zigzag" rootbeer.

Tim

Third Eye

>>Hi Terry,
>>
>>Long time no see. I'm a member of NOAH and you went with the group on a herping trip to the Carolinas a long time ago.
>>
>>Anyhow, I glad you're still working with rat snakes. It would sure be neat if someone did some sort of photo essay on the variability of Great Plains Rat Snakes. I don't think most people realize how many different "looks" they have.
>>
>>Here's a photo of my adult female "zigzag" rootbeer.
>>
>>Tim
>>
>>Third Eye

Tim, of course I remember who you are, and that cool trip to the Carolinas way back. That is a nice rootbeer too, thanks.

How would you suggest the photo essay, and where would you put it, here on this forum?

Thanks, Terry (Say, hi, to Marty for me.)

-----
Ratsnake Haven...researching ratsnakes since 1988

Ratsnake Haven Group...an information providing list site.

Ratsnake Foundation...ratsnake forums and galleries.

I guess I'm thinking about a webpage which shows their natural variability. For example, "back in the day" I'd go to reptile shows and see Bigheaded Turtles. They all pretty much looked the same. Then I stumbled across this webpage (link below) and it made me realize that there's a heck of a lot of variabilty that I never suspected.

I think there's a similar amount of color and pattern variety in Great Plain Rats, it's just no one seems to talk about it.

I'll tell Marty you said "hey."

Tim
Bighead Photo Page

>>I guess I'm thinking about a webpage which shows their natural variability. For example, "back in the day" I'd go to reptile shows and see Bigheaded Turtles. They all pretty much looked the same. Then I stumbled across this webpage (link below) and it made me realize that there's a heck of a lot of variabilty that I never suspected.
>>
>>I think there's a similar amount of color and pattern variety in Great Plain Rats, it's just no one seems to talk about it.
>>
>>I'll tell Marty you said "hey."
>>
>>Tim
>>Bighead Photo Page

Interesting page on that bigheaded turtle. I don't have that much material to work with, but have tried to show some of the variability before on the Ratsnake Forum, if you look through the archives. I think it's a great long range project, however, and will definitely keep it in mind. Right now I'm mostly interested in the variability of just that southern ssps, "meahllmorum". I suppose I could do a little blurp on it here on this forum, but it would be lots better if I had many more examples.

Thanks for the idea....Terry

>>Here are a couple of the cinnamons.

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Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
"Resistance is futile"
Jimmy Johnson
(Draybar)
Draybars Snakes

_____

Wow! Lots o' pink in the ground color. Very nice...

TC

Really like that second pic in this post. I'll take that one too.

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****Misty****

www.sneakyserpents.com

"I try to take one day at a time but sometimes several days attack me at once"

If you want a Truely amazing snake breed the Miami, to a Great plains Emoryi. It will give you simply outstanding Miami phase babies.

>>If you want a Truely amazing snake breed the Miami, to a Great plains Emoryi. It will give you simply outstanding Miami phase babies.
>>

While that may be true, I'm only working with meahllmorum at this time, and I don't have any Great Plains emoryi. Do you have anymore info on those rootbeers, like size of babies, clutch size, coloration, etc? Anymore pics?

Thanks for the post...

- Terry

Emoryi typically have small clutches, and I believe that there were only 6 hatchlings from this breeding. The babies size, was typical of an Emoryi, and a bit larger than a regular corn. They all had the same coloration, just different patterns. Sorry I do not have any other pics.

Thanks for the extra info. It does have a very nice pattern.

Terry