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Odd likes and dislike explained

Tony D Oct 18, 2007 10:57 AM

With all this discussion of odd likes and dislikes I thought it might be fun to pick some examples and try to explain ourselves. I’ll go first.

You’ll often here me say I like wild phenotypes best but then my signature project is the hypo coastal plains milk snake. This is an unexplainable contradiction however, cp milks are a childhood favorite but as a Virginia resident (were I lived when getting into breeding them) I could not work with normals but could work with a color morph that was arguably some type of albino. Don’t know if its funny or sad how we rationalize things but I’ve come to really appreciate this morph and believe it to be a nice compromise between a normal wild type and a gaudier albino tricolor. The third pic in this post is of my first clutch of hypo coastals.

Along the same line, I LOVE northern pine snakes and could work with the albino form but what would be the point? What I love about northern pines is not just their size and cocky attitude but the effect of a clean, high contrast black and white northern, which in my opinion is unsurpassed by any other reptile. To me, albinos just don’t have the same wow factor so I go without my favorite snake represented in my collection.

Another example of odd likes and dislikes is line-bred thayeri of which I’m not a huge fan despite the fact that they are some of the nicest and perhaps prettiest non-morph type snakes available today. Still I can’t help but look at a nice hi colored peach phase and think, “seen it a thousand times”. What used to excite me most about thayeri was their capacity to produce some really unique and beautiful specimens. For a while it seemed that the once coveted bright peach leonis phase became more the norm than the exception. Fortunately, what was once old often becomes new again and other characteristics are starting to get some respect. The first pic in this post is of my favorite thayeri. He was produced by Vivid and is from Tim’s (once old and now new) earth toned line.

Though I rarely tout locality status of my animals I have pretty good lineage info on the majority of my stock. Fact of the matter is that for some species I work with locality is very important. My Baird’s rats come to mind. I really like examples where the ground color is a light bluish-gray. To my minds eye this light color set against their rusty interstitial skin best evokes their southwestern home. I once read a very compelling piece by Steve Hammock (HISS) outlining his belief that animals incubated in drier conditions were born a lighter color. I don’t remember the specifics of the piece but the main idea stuck with me. Knowing that for every 15 mile one moves westward in TX you can expect one inch less of annual rainfall, I theorized that Bairds’ from the western portions of the range might possess the lighter ground color I like at a higher frequency than animals from the eastern portion of the range. To that end I’ve put together a small breeding colony that hails form Val Verde County TX. Specifically I have two bloodlines, one that traces back to Loma Alta and the other to Bakers Crossing. To me these two locals are close enough that I can still claim a sort of “generic Val Verde County TX locality status” (gotta love that!) yet far enough apart to assure a level of genetic vitality that is also important to me. Pic number two is of my Baker’s Crossing female.

Replies (30)

Joe Forks Oct 18, 2007 11:06 AM

the western bairds are usually associated with higher altitudes for example the Davis Mountains where it rains almost every afternoon in the summer. As you would expect they aren't the lightest Bairds on the planet. I think those Hill country Bairds are among the nicest on the planet along with those in Nuevo Leon (right where the thayeri are). There are plenty of nice Brick Red or Orange ones from western locals, but I don't think you'd say they were any lighter.

Check out a few photos that Troy Hibbitts' has on his site www.blackbeltreptiles.com
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http://www.hcu-tx.org

Tony D Oct 18, 2007 12:27 PM

The Loma Alta's came from Troy.

I'm looking at the TX average annual precipitation map (Fig 1.1) in the Manual of Water Utility Operation. You site the one exception to the rule on rainfall patterns. Though the Davis Mountains are approx 150 mile west of the locals I sited they actually get more not less rain. Likely due to lower dew points at higher elevations.

In keeping with Steve's theory yes they are darker as is evident on Troy’s site. If I'd know you were going to bring up obvious muggufins I'd have been more specific for you Joe!

This pic I posted is pretty typical of the Bakers crossing bloodline. As they are still hatchling I don't really know how the Loma Alta’s are going to turn out but going from a pic of their sire on Troy’s site I think they too will be a smidge distinctive from more eastern populations.

Tony D Oct 18, 2007 01:21 PM
keown Oct 18, 2007 04:21 PM

That has got to be one of the best looking examples of bairdi that I have ever seen. Baird's are my second favorite rat snake coming in right behind subocs and just ahead of triaspis. Great photos!
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Gerald Keown
Southwestern Center for Herpetological Research
www.southwesternherp.com

FR Oct 19, 2007 01:06 AM


I have been doing some work with these species. We see lots and lots and lots of them. Enjoy

antelope Oct 19, 2007 02:30 AM

Thanks for those Frank, I was waiting patiently, lol!
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Todd Hughes

keown Oct 19, 2007 08:57 AM

Neat snakes. Your second photo eminds me of my first one....found it crossing a jeep trail...got out of the vehocle and just stood there for a moment admiring him before picking him up.
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Gerald Keown
Southwestern Center for Herpetological Research
www.southwesternherp.com

antelope Oct 19, 2007 02:16 AM

I would be proud to have the first two in my collection as well. I love bairdi as well and will try my hand at the Mexicans this year. Normal subocs get my nod as well, the deep rusty-brown saddles are a color hard to describe and I love their temperment. Kings, well of course for me it is the Specks that really get me going, as I have not found my own grayband yet, but that may change soon! I like the high yellows but the black and white specks turn my head more, and especially the checkerboards you see every once in a while coming out of Kansas or maybe it is Missouri. Thayeri are like a box of chocolates, and last but not least, I like the anulatta for the milk group. Most can muddy up but there are some really nice clean ones that hold there colors true out there. Heres a few of my favorite things, and I really don't have any dislikes, I like all wild type patterns and colors, it keeps it more interesting than the morphs IMHO.

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Todd Hughes

antelope Oct 19, 2007 02:18 AM

A few more fav's.

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Todd Hughes

Tony D Oct 19, 2007 05:10 AM

That is a smokin annulata Tod. I used to have a pair from Applegate. The female was pretty dark but the male looked quite similar to yours.

antelope Oct 19, 2007 08:05 AM

Thanks, funny how some snakes are spazoid and others are not, within the same species, but all my Mexmilks are pretty chilly.

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Todd Hughes

Joe Forks Oct 18, 2007 01:43 PM

>>If I'd know you were going to bring up obvious muggufins I'd have been more specific for you Joe!

Sorry about that!

About thirty something years ago during one of my first trips to Langtry Joe Laszlo told me to find him a male Baird's Ratsnake for his adult female on display. Off I went and hunted all night without much real luck, just a few snakes. I crashed off the loop rd on top of my camper shell because it was too damn hot in the camper. When the sun came up over the ridge it woke me up and I had to pee. With one eye open I hopped down and started peeing on a lechuguilla. I almost pee'd on a Baird's crawling through that plant. It was a male and it bred Joe's female as soon as it was introduced. Joe was happy.
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http://www.hcu-tx.org

Tony D Oct 18, 2007 02:23 PM

Cool story.

After your post I looked at the precip map and thought &*##!?!?!#~@$ how'd he come up with that so quick? Then I recalled this is your back door.

chris jones Oct 18, 2007 12:08 PM

I got some mexican ones this year as an impulse buy and I'm glad I did.

Chris
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"All the fancy names in the world will be of no help if you do not know the difference between chocolate pudding and pig poop." -Frank Retes

Tony D Oct 18, 2007 01:17 PM

n/m

DISCERN Oct 18, 2007 12:30 PM

Here are some northerns for ya Tony!


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Genesis 1:1

DISCERN Oct 18, 2007 12:37 PM

That Bairds pictured may be the best one I have ever seen!!! WOW!!
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Genesis 1:1

Tony D Oct 18, 2007 01:16 PM

that was completely uncalled for! LOL

rustduggler Oct 18, 2007 12:32 PM

I'm going to like this thread, it should be very interesting. My favorite snake is the trans-pecos ratsnake. about one year after i starting keeping reptiles in 1987, a friend who had been travelling to texas for collecting trips to texas since 1977 invited me along. The deal was pretty much that he would get the graybands because he was showing me the ropes. During the twenty hour drive to the big bend region i was browsing the texas field guide of reptiles. i told him i hope we catch a blonde suboc. his reply was that it won't happen. he'd made 14 trips in 10 years and never saw one, nor had he ever talked with another road collector who had personally collected one. the first night we drove to lajitas just before dark. just as we got there a thunderstorm popped up. it poured for 45 minutes. when it finally stopped we headed west on the river road. there were rock slided blocking the road from the rain storm, so he decided to call it a night as we probably wouldn't see any snakes after all that rain anyway. somewhere between lajitas and the easter egg hotel we were stopped by a river of swift run-off water at a draw. we waited about 45 minutes, then the car in front of us drove through without incident. I said if they can pass through it we should be able to as well. so we did and a few miles from the hotel we found a medium sized adult female blonde suboc. the very first snake i ever saw and caught in texas. my friend was having trouble finding the car door handle so i was the first one out of the car and grabbed it. the next day as we were admiring it at the hotel i said it sure would be nice to get a male blonde to pair up. my buddy said it would never happen, count your lucky stars that you found this one. our 3rd night at 4am on our final pass as we were heading to the hotel a huge beautiful male blonde suboc was stretched ever so elegantly across the road at peppers hill. my friend was driving at the time, so once again i was the one to extracate it from the roadway. blonde suboc collecting seemed so easy at the time, how naive i was. we also caught a couple of normal subocs that trip, no altrna though. that story probably has something to do with why subocs are my favorite snake.I also like the fact that they really don't go through any pattern or color change from hatchling to adult which pretty much puts them in an exclusive club amongst north american ratsnakes. others use the term elegant to describe them, i have to agree, they are that as well......................... beacause he was more experienced keeping snakes my friend kept the pair that we both posessed co-ownership of. after the first year he was tempted by offers of cash to sell the pair. I refused to turn loose of them so i bought out his share in the pair and took posession. i sucsessfully bred them for many years.............what i don't like about the trans-pecos rats of today:............I have never been a big fan of albinisms. I may be a hypocrytical in stating that i love the blonde and silver phases of the suboc. I justify my like for those two variations based on the fact that there is a sustained wild population of blondes and that the silver is apparently a somewhat common gene mutation in wild subocs,as many silvers have been found here and there over the subocs broad range. amels and snows are a different story for me. i'm not trying to offend, but i don't think they improve upon the beauty of the trans-pecos ratsnake. I see a snow suboc and think i may as well be looking at a snow corn. i see an amel suboc and it reminds me of some of the striped albino gopher snakes. although i realize that all the genetic morphs of the suboc were found in wild specimens, the amels and snows are just not my cup of tea. now, I have never seen an amelanistic blonde phase, could that convert my way of thinking? we'll see. rusty

Tony D Oct 18, 2007 01:15 PM

n/m

FR Oct 19, 2007 12:48 AM

But liter and darker have many reasons. Also, all snake eggs require the same humidity to HATCH, so how dry it is outside has very little meaning. If you relate dryer with hotter, then your getting closer.

The hotter it is, the liter the snakes are, as their outside activity is more restricted to evening and night. The darker animals tend to be from areas of more daytime activity.

This works with many species from montane kings to ratsnakes, and more.

If you survey desert species, they tend to be liter. As usual there is some confusion. Our coachwhips are an example of this confusion, as both black individuals and liter reddish individuals are in equal numbers(and you thought kingsnakes were unique to this problem) And everything inbetween is here too.

Of course there is more to it, like ambient ground color, type of ground cover, etc.

In many cases, black is used to cool off quicker. Also, lite colored animals tend to hold heat longer. Consider, Black absorbs heat faster, it also releases it quicker. So in a hot enviornment, its to cool. These black individuals cool more efficently in the shade. Cheers

Tony D Oct 19, 2007 05:27 AM

None taken but I disagree with your statement that, "all snake eggs require the same humidity to HATCH." I'm not too anal about how I mix my incubation medium and I can tell you from personal experience that there is a fair range of humidifies that will lead to successful hatching.

That said, I almost always looked at Steve theory as referring to cb animals but couldn’t help but think that mild gradients over eons might also impact the frequency of light phenotypes. Whatever mechanisms are at work, I got the results I wanted. To be truthful, I only brought up the story as a means to illustrate that there are other reasons to look to locality other than some ill defined sense of personal preference. Sometime the phenotype you dig is highly associated with locality. For me however in the context of cb snakes it isn’t locality “purity” that is important as much as it is the localities ability to deliver the phenotype I desire. If I want a bright bold corn I go to Okeetee, if I want clean black and white pines I look to NJ stock. The locality names not only invoke a particular phenotype but also provide some level of assurance that the stock will pass those traits on.

And before you point it out, no I haven’t forgotten that these phenotypes we associate with locality have been line bred and don’t truly represent the wild population.

daveb Oct 19, 2007 08:23 AM

I agree...

my thoughts on the issue of incubation...

generally speaking the reptile egg is the first reproductive unit to be independent of a body of water. considering the primary food source in the egg are lipids, once the embryo digests them they release metabolic water.this is the water needed to assemble proteins etc, as the embryo grows. so i think an egg has all the water it needs to produce a hatchling.
i think there needs to an appropriate (variable)gradient on the outside of the egg to keep it from drying out as is found in a nest. sure eggs can absorb and do absorb water, but why, no one has given me a good answer. some rodents never touch a drop of water, why would an egg that has all it needs inside?

forgive me (hahaha)if i have missed something obvious!
daveb

Tony D Oct 19, 2007 08:42 AM

I deem any thread a success if I either learn something new or start looking at an issue in a different light! Thanks Dave for a great point and Frank for steering things this way.

Bluerosy Oct 19, 2007 11:47 AM

I deem any thread a success if I either learn something new or start looking at an issue in a different light! Thanks Dave for a great point and Frank for steering things this way.

Tony,

Victorias Secret called and they said you can pick up Franks underwear.
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"Yeah ya told me, and ya wrote it down too. But how the hell am I supposed to remember!"

FR Oct 19, 2007 11:57 AM

I always GO COMMANDO(sans underwear) Cheers

Tony D Oct 19, 2007 02:25 PM

as usual, TO MUCH INFORMATION.

FR Oct 19, 2007 11:40 AM

Boy can you worm around, First, all eggs do have a "range"of suitable humidity, but all colubrid eggs have about the same range. The key to understanding this is knowing where the females place their eggs and what those conditions are.

To a very small degree, that range is ever so slightly different amoung the most extreme of species, say a worm snake compared to a gophersnake. But amoung the same species, sir, its not even thinkable.

My bet is, all bairds place their eggs in the same conditions, not matter what part of the range they are in.

Please understand, this subject is a very easy test. All you have to do is recieve eggs from the different color types and measure the humidity and lower it until the eggs perish. Then compare those results.

Also, does your theory mean that if eggs are hatched at just above lethally low humidity levels, they should come out very lite??

If you said your theory was incubation temps, I at least could agree that high incubation temps does indeed effect color and pattern formation in the egg. But I was want to see results from tests in order to have it be the cause of lite colored individuals.

Whats so funny is you want to bring up exceptions that have nothing to do with your theory. So I will do the same. If you incubate Black kings eggs in a dryer enviornment, will they hatch out lite black? or even white? Or are black kings from dryer conditions less black?

Lastly, for the moment, snakes seek conditions suitable for their lifes, in order to exsist in any area. In dryer areas, they seek the areas with needed moisture. In wetter areas, they seek the dryer areas that meet their needs. The needs of a species such as Bairds is the same across the board. That sir is very basic. And you can test that too. All you have to do is see what the lethal low humidity is for the darker and liter types.

What bothers me is, you ignore the most important points I brought up, like selection. Different colored animals are indeed products of selection.

So yes, I think your theory is so full of holes it could be used for a sphagetti strainer. Cheers

thomas davis Oct 19, 2007 12:17 PM

thats GOTTA sting, good stuff FR,,,,,,,thomas
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

Tony D Oct 19, 2007 02:27 PM

First I’m not invested in the theory. I just took two ideas I was aware of and came up with a direction for selecting some stock. That I ended up with what I wanted proves nothing and I know that but Frank clouding an idea with the obvious doesn’t disprove it either. That color intensity in snakes is related to a several environmental factors is apparent. Frank’s usually peppers obvious statements with some pretty good insight but if he did this time I missed it. Despite his consternation and extreme examples, it remains plausible that incubation factors, including humidity gradients, influence color. Heck, I’m just glad he no longer feels compelled to remind me we’re talking about snakes and not people.

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