Reptile & Amphibian Forums

well my v. griseus went in for the winter! I haven't seen the in bout one and a half to 2 weeks. now my ? is... is there a certain way that is best to let them hibernate? the guy I got them from told me to put them in a shoe box and put them in a cool place. but im scared to death to do that!! what do yall suggest? they are like 3 and a half years old and are in perfect shape!!

None of mine have ever hibernated or appeared to want to.

I would never put them in a shoe box unless I was shipping them or perhaps burying them in the yard. If you do you very well might be doing the later.

i let the temp drop and the humidity is very low but not so low that they have shedding problems. they did this last year too at this same time!! but i didn't want them to so i upped the temp and had a huge increase in food intake!!! but this year my female is ready so im guna try to breed them. is there any thing i should do to insure that they make it through the winter?

I have never liked the hibernation thing. I have kept many reptiles that "supposed" to be hibernated, but bred when they were supposed to be hibernated. Why griseus would be any different i dont know?

I would try setting them up in a way that would allow them to hibernate if they wanted, while still having the same choices as before, maybe a dual cage. One that is regular choices with some tubes going to the next one that is room temp or cooler?

Not be mean or anything but you stated they are in "perfect" shape. I would think if they were in perfect shape your griseus would of bred and layed many eggs before 3 years.

Cheers and good luck,
Sean

haha good point i meant perfect for hibernating. but they came out to day and they were pissed to see me haha that's how they are!!

I dis-agree with that last comment about them not being in good shape if they haven't bred by the time they are 3 years old.

I kept griseus never cooled them either but mine produced 12 eggs after 4 years of age. There were times in the year when they didn't seem interested in food but I never cooled them because I thought it was unnessary. All the griseus I have seen in the pet trade are possibly of North African origin.

Hibernation, I agree with you, and has nothing to do with being 3 or 4 or 5 or 6 years old, in the wild they mature later in age, and reproduce less, why conditions.
Why food availability.
Why inconsistencies that cause stress.
Its already been shown that small species can reproduce at 3-6 months old in captivity, that medium sized species can reproduce at 6-12 months of age, and large species can and do from 6-18 months in age, all in captivity.
I venture to guarrantee, when the species becomes a bit more common here they start reproducing younger and younger. You know at one time keepers and breeders thought that almost every reptile out there needed brumated to reproduce, just like anything else, a misunderstood survival adaptation being blamed for causing magic.

Do they need to cool down in order to survive? Or do they go down in order to survive the cold?

If you ask me it is the later.

Theres a little more to it. Often times its not about cold, particularly in equatorial areas. Its about hydration and cool. If we keep our monitors fed and water, they come out in very cold temps, anything from 50F and up. But if we do not water or feed them regularly(they get water from food) They quickly go down at first chance.

As far as I can tell, what allows reproduction is a choice of temps. They do not reproduce when its always cool or always hot. They need cool and hot to reproduce. If you provide that, they will reproduce all months of the year.

Even indoors with ackies, if you have normal temps and stop feeding them, and the substrate is suitable, they will go down.

So yes, going down is a survival mechanism and is done for many reasons.

Of course a huge confusion is applied to desert monitors. Theres a paper discribing how Russian desert monitors hibernate, but ALL Desert monitors, in the states are not from russia, they are as mentioned, african. Which is clearly a different habitat then Russia. This is just another error inexperienced folks do, they apply the extremes to the middle. Which is not all that wise. While indeed there are some monitors that HAVE to hibernate they are indeed the extremes and could be thought of as such. Cheers

Yes I agree there is a lot of confusion applied to keeping this species. I see it as no different to keeping other species of monitors which are from semi arid to arid areas.

The best way to learn is through your own experience, this is what I found out. A lot of the literature written on this species is either based on a singular occurance with a couple of animals kept in captivity and for the rest well it might as well have been made up because I found it to be complete nonsense.

Maybe that's what these academics do, make stuff up to fill in the gaps to make it sound more interesting!!!

Ok, with all my wars with academics, I should be be last to defend them. hahahahahahahahaha

Many if not most, of the papers written by field researchers are good in that they report what they see. What happens after that is whats goofy.

Many papers attempt to make conclusions with math and not observations. With these, I would avoid them.

Field researchers are not academic, they are actually doing something. To be a good researcher, your task is not to figure out anything, but instead to take data. After lots of data is gathered, then it becomes academic, as that information is usually not applied to anything.

This type of research is never tested. That is, its not proven with captives, or tested on wild populations. Or is it normally duplicated with other populations. As far as I can tell, the only reviews or testing, is to make sure their math and spelling is right. Not if the information produces results.

Even with that understood, that information is good in its own context. Not necessarily our context. Where we must produce results. This is where my "discussions" with academics start. I simply chose not to use "goofy" out of context data, and heres the good part, in leiu of solid data gain with my captives. Which means, if my captives tell me they are social, then social they are(if they are successful that way). If they tell me they do not hibernate, then hibernation is out(if they succeed sans hibernation). If they tell me UVB bulbs are not needed, then those bulbs are out. Etc etc. It really does not matter what T-rex or any book or any field research says.

The truth is, monitors are very very easy to breed. Most over complicate it. All that is necessary is a pair of monitors of the same species or even other species. Put them in a cage with decent nesting and temps(cage conditions) and feed them and they will breed.

All this other stuff may be entertaining, and fun to try, but its not needed.

All I ever work at is, allowing the monitor to be as much of a monitor as it can. The rest works itself out. Cheers

I didn't have time to sit and write up anything. I instead just left it short and wanted to show how silly it is to think that way. I have always found it odd when people tell me you have to cool them down and hibernate them or they will die or they won't reproduce unless you do it.

I think there is a big difference between an enviromental change forcing an adaptation. Then seeking out a cold place to hibernate out of choice.

I do have ranges of temps in my setups but I do not have anything I would say is cold. They do seek out areas to heat up and cool off as well as retain moisture. But I have never seen them do anything I would call hibernation. I also do not plan on forcing them into anything as suggested in a post above (monitor in a shoebox put into a cool place).

I have never hibernated monitors although I do have an interest in the desert monitors. I also live in cent. Fla. so temps here may be as extreme as where you are but I do have a few reptiles that hibernate. I keep Mali uromastyx outside here year- round and they go dormant around mid-late Nov. They have a deep sand substrate in their cage and they retire to their burrows and only come to sun themselves on really warm days. I do plastic their cage in January and February when Night-time lows go into the upper 20's to very low 30'sf. But only to buffer the effects of the extreme (for Fla.)cold. I usually remove it once it warms a little. I do not feed them at this time unless there is a run of warm weather for several days and they are active and I stop feeding a few days before the next front. I have done it like this for 4yrs with no problems. I hibernate Leopard geckoes by keeping them in their same tanks but reducing the temp in their room and I do not feed them for 3-4 months and only mist them lightly once a week or so. They will breed whether or not you cool them but produce better with the cool down. I also keep Argentine boas that somewhat go dormantin the winter. Some are kept in a room that gets little heat (low70's during the day low 60,s f at night) others are kept in a room that is about 85f all the time, either way the argentines go dormat and will not eat for about 4-5 months.

Reptiles go dormant for many reasons, temperature change, lack of food, or safety.
Every reptile Ive ever seen, had, or cared for that reproduced did so because conditions allowed for it, in other words it was conditions. I can get my big albig to go dormant a few times a year by doing nothing different, but there are times I must add or subtract litebulbs to her cage or she will do so. Once that process starts it is too late to prevent it, but they stay dormant for a short time (days to a week) and come back up to the new more suitable condtions, then readjust to eating normal again.
As far as bigger clutches, not a chance. Ive seen snakes and lizards that were brumated that lost entire periods of time recovering. They always produced less eggs per clutch and less clutches, and were of a smaller body weight consitantly.

Sorry but I disagree. I have produced way to many leopard geckoes for many years and kept them in both conditions of normal even temps and with winter cooldown to think different. They will consistently produce more eggs if you cool them. true they are not monitors but since I don't produce desert monitors I can only go by the species I work with that come from similar habitats (or the same in the case of leos and uros.). One thing about Fla. is that it is actually almost hard to acheive adeqate temps for cool down here unless you keep your animals outside or in an unheated building and even then buildings moderate the temps quite a bit even if they are unheated. With a good central air system it is actually easier to maintain things status quo than it is to cool things and like I said leos produce more eggs when cooled so if I want more eggs I cool them. These are not the only reptiles that I have that show seasonal variation here My day geckoes all go through breeding cycles according to season as do my rainbow boas and as I said before my Argentines just stop eating altogether. Theres is definitely more to it than temps and humidity.

And you will see what makes sense and explains it, of course read FRs comment above before and you will get clarification. Its not about cooling them, its not about single temps or humidities, its about ranges, it is about letting them pick from constantly available ranges.
They maximise their output and performance when conditions allow.
Dont assume that a survival feature is doing something to increase reproduction numbers, I think you are assuming from a limited point of view, your not seeing the ocean through the waves.
In fact in cases I have experience with in aquaintance/friends collections leos did badly if cooled, and if offered wide ranges consistantly they boomed and never stopped producing eggs. I have experience with other species doing the same exact thing, one that I had to get rid of the adults to stop them from laying eggs was beardies, every 3 weeks all year long. I have had similar results with geckos of different types, the only differences were temp ranges were lower (lower top ends, lower bottom ends). Snakes do this in captivity, they reproduce with good ranges, not cooling them. In fact my experience as well others experiences cooling snakes causes them to lose the cooling time, the recovery time, time they could be cycling, mating, laying, eating, growing, etc.
Its not brumating that does anything for reproduction, in fact this is how the whole thing got started years ago, someone saw a cooling period and recovery period which ended in reproduction, so they assumed that it caused them to reproduce, it was the range and resources, not the brumation.
Think about this many mammals that do sleep during part of winter, or hibernate also mate during that hibernation, but and afterwards when the spring brings a period of warmer temps, and a huge variety of food animals reproduce. Some give birth during that time, so it was the boost in diet and better conditions before the hibernation which caused the reproduction to occur.
I cant believe its this hard for some people to understand.

It has nothing to do with what other people do that influences me although I obviously got the cooling idea elsewhere. As I said if I cool certain animals I get better production out of them. If that works that is what I do. As I also said it actually takes more effort to cool things here in Fla. so if I want to reduce egg production all I have to do is absolutely nothing. just keep feeding them and leave them be. There is basis btw for the temp. thing. There is loads of evidence in the plant kingdom link better reproduction to winter cooling. Here in Fla there are only 3 varieties of apples that can be grown(there may be a few more now but I only know of 3) Tropic sweet, Anna and golden dorsett. These 3 varieties need only about 40 chilling hours which are temps below 40f. Most varieties require many more chilling hours and will not set fruit without them. the same goes for a lot of varieties of Peaches as well although with peaches nematode resistance is a factor as well. this also goes for Lilacs many types of maples and several types of popular flowers that are commonly grown up north. Summertime heat has little to do with it as contrary to poular belief it does not get all that hot here in the summer. Temps seldom get above the mid 90's f. In fact I can think of several types of plants that grow up north and grow in south Texas where I grew up (much much hotter than Fla.) That either won't grow here or only grow here marginally and the only limit factor I can think of is the lack of winter cold here as it gets much colder in the winter in south Texas. This does apply to reptiles as well there are reptiles that occur on the east coast that are found further north of here and not here.(wood turtles and bog turtles and painted turtles immediately come to mind) There are no geographic barriers limiting them and some species that occur up north occur here as well (garter snakes hog nose snakes as well) and the Snapping turtles up north grow much bigger than the ones here leading me to believe that cooler winter temps must have some effect on their growth rate.

You mentioned plant kingdom, what the plant kingdom and animal kingdom do has nothing to do with each other. By the way Ive seen indoor grown fruit trees that see no real sunlight, and never see freezing temps, in fact room temps that grow fruit all year, and do so in mass amounts.
Brumation/hibernation in reptiles, or any animal has nothing to do with reproduction or it working better, it has to do with survival in times not suitable for reproduction, or even basic survival, thats all nothing else.
No amount of publication proves otherwise, to see the animals do without cooling and do better than those cooled proves it. Maybe your not seeing all of whats happening or when it happens, therefore results are flawed.

I too have seen fruit trees that will grow and fruit indoors with out signifigant changes in temps and under artificial light. In I can think of a plant in the Mulberry family very closely related to figs and hops(a good one to throw at rednecks who "only drink beer" that actual produces better fruit in artificial light than natural light. However apple trees will not, they need chilling hours as do a lot of fruit bearing plants in the rose family as most plants in this family occur in the cooler parts of the northern hemisphere. Plants and animals are more closely linked than you think I have used plants in my animal set-ups for years that are indigenous to the regions they come from as guage for conditions.If the plants do well the animals inevitably will as well.I mostly do it with chameleons daygeckos and skinks but with enough effort it can be applied to monitors as well. although working with plants from the australasian archipelligo is a little more difficult than other areas the greater Sunda landmass is particularly tricky. Madagascar and South Africa are much easier and of course working with south american stuff is just downright easy I good reproduce a south american rainforest habitat in my sleep or a cloud forest or a pantanal type enviroment. You should stick with reptiles btw. I have probably forgotten more about plants (Fruit trees in particular)in the last 5 minutes than you have ever learned. You are definitely out of your league here. I think about you when I pick my next carambola from a tree growing 50 miles out of it's normal range (in Florida) and I'll eat it uner a Delonix regia tree growing 150 miles out of it's range.

The point is that NO REPTILE NEEDS OR BENEFITS IN ANY WAY FROM BRUMATION, period.
Its a dead subject, every year someone tries to argue this, its already been proven a zillion times, if you see results otherwise your doing something wrong, or as I said, "not seeing the ocean through the waves".
Regardless of what you think about apple trees needing so many hours below freezing to produce fruit, its doesnt work that way either, nor do roses need it.
This last year was one of the warmest winters on record, my apples (and everyone else who grows them in this state) were the biggest crop in over 20 years. My roses had to be cut back 3 times this summer, and twice this spring because they grew over my house roof (all but 2 plants), in colder winters it seems a miracle if the plants survive, and they grow so little in comparison, the rose flowers were very plentiful this year.
The warm spring, long warm summer and fall were the reason for those trees and plants to do so good.
I could care less what the species name of the plants and trees we grow are, I know them by their common names, also taught to me by the people who taught me how to grow and care for them, who were taught by there parents, and so on.
Common sense, a warm year with lots of rain, plants grow better, a cold year or a draught they do badly, its not rocket science, people have been doing this for thousands of years.
All of the publications in the world add up to a big pile of kindling if they serve no real purpose or produce no results.
It doesnt take a masters degree to figure this stuff out.
The only reason most apple trees do so much better outdoors is space, how many people have the room to keep a 20 plus year old tree thats 25-35 ft high, and just as big around indoors? Very few I guess.
The only thing that helps apple trees and roses with LATE freezing, is the insects are held at bay while the buds, young shoots, and leaves are developing in plant life resistant to freezing.

Hi, I agree, its all about you and not about hibernating or not. ITs your patterns. This is the next step in advancing your husbandry, you know, discovering your part in the equation.

What it sound like to me is, you wear out by fall and you take less care then in spring after you had a vacation(winter). If that is what you want, then great, stay doing that.

But if you want to find out the potential of your animals, then you have to figure out what is important and what is not important, and using that information.

For instance, spring is the time for reproduction because reptiles are be active and conserve energy. By mid to late summer, they no longer can conserve energy because its too hot, 24/7. By fall, they can again build up reserves because they now have the ability to conserve.

If you gave them that ability 24/7, 365, you may see different more benefitual results. But you will have to adjust your behavior, you know, you will have to adjust your feeding schedule, to maintain a spring like approach.

I have done that with many many reptiles and had extreme success with all. A few examples are with ackies, we just have a female lay 18 clutches in a row. Which beat our previous record of 14 by a Kings monitor. Also, I have a female gouldi cross that has laid 59 clutches in her life(I hatched her) and she is still going. She will be nine years old. We have seen many other very good results as well, a female lacie producing five clutches in one year. A gouldi producing ten clutche a year for two years(she lived and produced for many more years, but not at that rate)

Two years ago we triple clutched a L.thayeri, etc.

There are two distint areas of concern, one the species reproductive potential and your pattern of husbandry. IF you change one, YOU HAVE TO CHANGE THE OTHER.

You simply cannot not hibernate them, then not change your other husbandry.

So yes, I totally agree with Shvar, and I agree with you. That is, I agree with your results. But you may have failed to adjust your husbandry to meet the new demands of your non-hibernated reptiles.

As I state, its all about support. I fully understand that, as I thought ackies could only have 6 clutches a year. Until I changed how I supported them.

Support also means learning their optimum conditions, for instance, most in the monitor world thinks gestation times are normally a month or more. Yet, we have monitors laying eggs every two weeks. Clutch after clutch. And larger monitors, dropping clutches 8 to 10 days after copulation.

The point is, it took time and a lot of work to figure out what it took to do those things. To be truthfull, my first events were luck. But I worked until I could reproduce those results.

One key was the understanding that reproduction does not negatively effect the health of a female. I do lots of field work and in most cases, reproduction has no effect. But in captivity reproduction can be very hard on females, causing them to lose weight and become dehydrated. Yet, healthy wild females do not become dehydrated or lose weight.

The point is, once you learn how to not harm the females, they can support reproducing on a continious basis. And yes, that is a lot of work to keep up with.

So maybe its better you hibernate your animals, so you do not have to work that long and that hard. You see, its really about you.

I see you like you use out of context information to back your theories, which is fine. But its not needed, as I can show exact context data that monitors do not need to be hibernated, and they grow better and produce more. And lastly they still live very very long lives. So yes, you can choose a method that fits you.

This year, I am allowing a bunch of monitors to go down, as I am very busy doing other things. And I really do not need all them babies running around. You see, its a choice. Cheers