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Toxic Rat Paranoia/Hysteria

BillyBoy Oct 20, 2007 02:29 PM

Ok folks, I'm going to play devil's advocate here and throw some wrenches into the toxic rat theory.

First, and perhaps most obviously, how come we have not heard about other large constrictors losing color, having greasy butt explosions(GBE's ), regurges and rolling over and dying? I've scanned the retic, burm, anaconda and blood forums here on KS and found nothing. May mean nothing, but it's something to consider.

Second, with regards to the poison dog food issue, if the dog food was toxic enough to kill dogs and cats, wouldn't it be toxic enough to kill rats too? The only way this makes sense is if someone had a load of rats just up and die after feeding poison dog food and then froze them and sold them. In my estimation, this would have to be a ton of rats, possibly even an entire breeder's collection. From a business standpoint, this would be a hugely risky thing to do, with far worse repercussions in the long run than losing a bunch of stock to some "unknown" cause. But then again, it seems most of these complaints are directly related to XXXL size rats and not other sizes which kind of negates the theory altogether. What about the smaller rodents being fed the same food? I would think that they would succumb to the poison even quicker and in greater numbers. Wouldn't it then make sense that snakes all over the country, large and small, from corns and kings to retics, burms and our beloved boas, would be shedding out color, having GBE's and regurges and dropping dead?

I think it's a bit simplified to look at only the food supply. What about substrates? What about cage cleaners? What about decorations? What about actual cages? Has anyone done any kind of stats to find out who's boas this is happening to? You know, how old the snakes are, their geographical location, what's the housing, feeding, cleaning, what other snakes are present in the collection, what insecticides may have been used recently, what's the source of the actual snakes affected (who bred them or imported them), etc.

Also, if anyone cares to, please contact me to let me know who the suspected rodent supplier(s) is/are. I have only ever bought frozen rats/mice from two suppliers, and only one in the last two years or so, and I am concerned about the possibility of something being transmitted to my collection from the food.

Anyway, I just would like everyone to stop and think about this a little further to see if there is some other culprit(s), because in my mind, the toxic rat thing just doesn't make too much sense. I do believe that it is hugely important that we pin down the exact cause so it can be avoided in the future.

Also, my most heartfelt condolences to anyone who has lost an animal to this particular syndrome.

Billy

Replies (14)

killr_silhouette Oct 20, 2007 02:39 PM

it seems like you've made some really good points...

i believe that my hogg island suffered from this Toxic rat thing...(the rat i gave her was a large rat from a large chain pet store...a one time thing in between buying rats from expos)

the only adverse affect was the color loss, no GBE, regurges, etc...

(refer to the post i made earlier)

the toxic rat thing is definately something we need to pinpoint...and prevent!

good post!
-----
0.1.0 Hogg Island Boa
0.1.0 Albino Columbian Boa
1.0.0 Carpet Python
0.0.1 Red Albino Cornsnake
0.0.1 Aberrant California Kingsnake
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1.0.0 Normal Leopard Gecko
1.0.0 Hypo Leopard Gecko
1.0.0 Leopard Toad
2.2.0 Dogs
1.2.0 Cats
1.0.0 Rabbit
1.0.0 Gerbil
....................................

Shed Your Fears!
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jscrick Oct 20, 2007 02:51 PM

READ the thing on FATTY RATS on BASICALLY BOAS home page.

I belive there is something in there about Boa constrictors being intollerant of FAT, pythons not being succeptable.

Read that Billy Boy.

jsc

BillyBoy Oct 20, 2007 03:34 PM

Yup, I am aware of the whole Zucker rat thing, although I never saw a picture of one before. WHOA!! That is one fat rat!

PLEASE, if anyone has experienced the toxic rat syndrome, take a look at the picture of the Zucker rat on Basically Boas site and let us all know if that was the culprit in your particular instance.

However, there is a difference between an ultra fat Zucker rat causing severe digestive problems and the broader "toxic rat" allegations we are hearing about now. I think it definitely warrants further investigaion since it is obviously NOT an isolated incident or two.

Billy

jscrick Oct 20, 2007 03:21 PM

Before you overreact and say I'm overreacting, I suggest you read it all.
I haven't called anyone names, pointed any fingers, or been hysterical about any of this.
I've mearly shared my experience, what I've done about it, and presented two hypotheses on the potential cause. I've suggested sources for more information and gave my opinion on which postulate I find more valid.
My comments are posted as jscrick. Please read them again, if you haven't already.
Hope this eases your mind.
jsc

BillyBoy Oct 20, 2007 03:50 PM

I didn't mean to imply that you or anyone was overreacting at all. I have read it all and am just trying to prompt everyone to look at this situation from every possible angle rather than simply pigeonholing it based on incomplete information.

So far, I think the best advice has been to avoid feeding our Bcc and Bci any obese-looking rats.

Billy

>>Before you overreact and say I'm overreacting, I suggest you read it all.
>>I haven't called anyone names, pointed any fingers, or been hysterical about any of this.
>>I've mearly shared my experience, what I've done about it, and presented two hypotheses on the potential cause. I've suggested sources for more information and gave my opinion on which postulate I find more valid.
>>My comments are posted as jscrick. Please read them again, if you haven't already.
>>Hope this eases your mind.
>>jsc

Kelly_Haller Oct 20, 2007 03:33 PM

The first and main point is that it is apparent from the information I have gathered from talking with others, that boa constrictors appear to be less tolerant of a fatty diet than most other boid species.

Also, if it is related to a toxin, it is important to remember that biological and/or organic toxins are typically highly fat soluble, and will be stored foremost in the fat reserves of the animal that ingests them. Older and heavier rats with a higher body fat percentage will obviously carrier a much larger load of the toxin.

Rats are notoriously more resistant to toxic substances than most other mammals, and it would not be unusual for the same food source to prove fatal to a dog or cat, and leave the rat with a less than fatal dose. Rats have been shown with certain toxins to have an LD50 more than 100 times greater than for other species of mammals.

Another critical element that was stated earlier by Kitchi, always know your rodent supplier and what they feed. Some suppliers rely on other outside rodent breeders for their supply stock and you never know what they are being fed. I have had a rat colony for 30 years and feed a mix of grains and lab diet. This leans down the fat content of the lab feed and produces a low fat nutrient rich diet. The rats always grow large, but do not have much body fat. My boids, and the boids of others that have used them, do great on them and I have never seen or heard of a regurge or bad stool. If you are buying rats that look obese, you may want to re-think. Just my take on all this.

Kelly

BillyBoy Oct 20, 2007 03:40 PM

Thanks Kelly. That's some good information there, especially the part about the toxin loads able to be tolerated in rats.

Even though I don't keep the larger species you keep, I always enjoy reading your posts in the other forums and seeing pics of your animals, especially those pimburas!!

Billy

>>The first and main point is that it is apparent from the information I have gathered from talking with others, that boa constrictors appear to be less tolerant of a fatty diet than most other boid species.
>>
>>Also, if it is related to a toxin, it is important to remember that biological and/or organic toxins are typically highly fat soluble, and will be stored foremost in the fat reserves of the animal that ingests them. Older and heavier rats with a higher body fat percentage will obviously carrier a much larger load of the toxin.
>>
>>Rats are notoriously more resistant to toxic substances than most other mammals, and it would not be unusual for the same food source to prove fatal to a dog or cat, and leave the rat with a less than fatal dose. Rats have been shown with certain toxins to have an LD50 more than 100 times greater than for other species of mammals.
>>
>>Another critical element that was stated earlier by Kitchi, always know your rodent supplier and what they feed. Some suppliers rely on other outside rodent breeders for their supply stock and you never know what they are being fed. I have had a rat colony for 30 years and feed a mix of grains and lab diet. This leans down the fat content of the lab feed and produces a low fat nutrient rich diet. The rats always grow large, but do not have much body fat. My boids, and the boids of others that have used them, do great on them and I have never seen or heard of a regurge or bad stool. If you are buying rats that look obese, you may want to re-think. Just my take on all this.
>>
>>Kelly

jscrick Oct 20, 2007 04:24 PM

Here is a photo I just took.
Right after I got off line I went and looked at this "calico" Bci, I had fed an XX Lg. Fatty Rat to yesterday.
She looked like she had swallowed a football. I immediately put her in a tub of water. 10 minutes later this is what I got.
Can you see the grease? She's slimy as hell. And stinky, too.
I'm going to have to wash her with the antibacterial soap method.
jsc

okeeteekid Oct 20, 2007 04:37 PM

does your boa look sick in any way? it looks like to me that boas have a problem digesting the animals fat. i would try using leaner rats.
greg

jscrick Oct 20, 2007 04:53 PM

I was concerned when I saw that the boa looked like she had swallowed a football, because that mass wasn't obvious yesterday when she ate.

That would indicate to me that:
1) She was getting ready to regurge. The meal was going putrid and gas was accumuating in her stomach.
2) Or, that she was dehydrating from the meal.

Since she's already a "calico", I suspect she's experienced this before and is suceptible to the condition.

The XX Lg. Rats are the ones that keep coming up in conversation.

The only thing I know to do is hydrate the snake to help relieve any of the conditions above.

The photo is to reassure Billy Boy; I'm not mistaken, exadurating, or embellishing the truth.

jsc

okeeteekid Oct 20, 2007 05:59 PM

if there is some toxin in the rat. wouldn't freezing preserve it?
greg

NCBoas Oct 20, 2007 06:02 PM

If the problem is all about the fat content in these huge rats, why don't the giant retired breeders that I get from my local petstore have the same affect on my snakes?

jscrick Oct 20, 2007 09:11 PM

I don't know. I'd really like to find out exactly what is wrong.
jsc

dmac Oct 20, 2007 04:50 PM

It's no secret about the tainted dog food from China. Many different papers have reported the same story and many lawsuits are pending-mostly from dog owners whose dogs contracted severe liver damage after eating the food. Paranoia is delusional.

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