Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I finally got around to taking some photos of the burmese python I rescued 1 1/2 weeks ago.

It is in fact a female, 7yrs old and only 7 1/2ft long. I used my 3yr old male, that's just over 9ft long, in some photos for size comparison. Yes, the male is probably just a tad small for his age because he's a real picky eater & goes off feed for about 5 months during breeding season.

This first photo is the rescue with my 9yr old son holding her.

Here's my son with my 9ft male.

Rescued female on the left side & my male on the right. (My male is het for albino and labyrinth, thus the lighter colors.)

Closeup of the two.

Ya'll have a great day!
HH
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Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

Awe, she's so little and cute.
I do have one negative thing to say though...
You really should have quarentined her from your other snake for a couple months before allowing them to be together. 1 1/2 weeks is DEFINATELY not long enough. I hope she doesn't have anything wrong with her, or you could end up with a huge problem on your hands.
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~Sara~
4 Leopard Geckos
4 ball pythons
1.0 Black-lined plated lizard (Lizzy Butt)
0.1 Burmese Python (Pixil)
5 Rats
6 Mice
1.1 Gerbils
1.1 Dogs (Ozzie and Mandy)
0.1 Cat (Isis)
0.0.1 Synodontis Catfish (Big Spotty Fish)
0.1 Convict Cichlid
0.0.1 blood parrot cichlid
0.0.1 African Featherfin Catfish

> > > I do have one negative thing to say though...
You really should have quarentined her from your other snake for a couple months before allowing them to be together.

Heh, I don't consider that a negative, especially the way you said it. I understand where you're coming from, what you mean, and that you said something out of concern for the snakes, and maybe even me. And I thank you.

The snakes only came into contact for about 2 minutes, max. They aren't housed together, although I wouldn't hesitate to do so if i wanted to or had a need to.

You see, I'm from the old school of reptile keepers. Most of us old timers do things differently than most of the younger generation of keepers.

I don't treat a newly acquired reptile for parasites as a precaution. In fact, in almost 40yrs I haven't had to treat the first one for parasites.

I don't disinfect water bowls everytime I change the water. Still, no poor health conditions.

I don't disinfect the whole cage at every cleaning.

I've always said that if a person can't tell that a reptile has any health problems within 2 weeks, then they've still got a lot to learn. Now, please don't misunderstand me, I don't mean to be rude, or sarcastic, not at all. So please don't take it that way. That's just the way I've successfully kept reptiles, mostly snakes, for almost 40 years.

I know of people that sanitize water bowls daily, sterilize their cage daily (or at least once a week). I even know people that practically follow their reptiles around with a microscope, waiting for them to poop so they can check to see if they have any parasites from one hour to the next. For what? Let the creatures live! A healthy animal is not affected by parasites, germs, or anything other than a keeper practically wearing a surgical mask & gloves when they handle them so they don't contaminate the animals. I kid you not!

All of that disinfecting, sanitizing, sterilizing, de-parasitizing, hospitalizing, stuff is nothing but bandaids. Bandaids! Used to hold the animal together, to cover up for poor husbandry. UVB lighting: a bandaid.

If you've got good husbandry, you don't need any bandaids. I've got 3 bearded dragons that don't even know what a UVB light looks like.

If you don't keep your humidity up where it should be, you'd better use a bandaid by disinfecting the waterbowl every day. Low temperatures, inadequate amount or quality of food? You'd better sterilize your cage often.

Meet the animal's basic needs and save all that time wasted on the other, trivial, things, and spend it with your animals, enjoying them.

I'll tell you what. If you can name one thing that is guaranteed to show itself within a 3-month quarrantine period that would not show up during a 2-week quarrantine period, I'll seriously reconsider what I've been successfully doing for nearly 40 years.

Please keep in mind that I'm not being hasty with you & I mean you no disrespect.

Here's a side of humor that I feel is actually relative:
I don't quarantine the kids that come to play with my kids, either.

Have a great day!
HH
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Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

I guess you told him. Haha. I know you meant no disrespect and I agree with most of what you are saying.

Talk to you later,
Randy
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Randy and Michelle
Art In Scales
(719) 439-4199
info@artinscales.com

I like to treat my animals the way I would want to be treated. If I had to live in an area that was was in porportion to what most snakes are made to live in, I would want it super clean. After all, I would have to lay on it 24/7. If I had to use my water bowl for both drinking and soaking/defecating, I would want it disinfected between uses. I hardly consider a once a week disinfection of a cage to be excessive! I don't know anybody that follows their animals around with microscopes or wears gloves when handling (unless to avoid being bitten), so I'm assuming you were just exagerating for dramatic effect.
Snakes aren't meant to lay in the same area day after day. In the wild they can move and don't have the risk of laying in soiled substrate. If we are going to confine them to tiny enclosures, the least we can do is keep it clean.

"A healthy animal is not affected by parasites, germs, or anything other than a keeper practically wearing a surgical mask & gloves when they handle them so they don't contaminate the animals."

This is a weird statement, but I will try to address it. Reptiles are usually born healthy, but they don't stay that way without some good husbandry skills. To say that a healthy animal is not affected by germs or parasites is a flip-flop, because germs and parasites are what make animals not healthy. Do you think that if an animal has parasites that it was just born with them? They get them! That is why you should protect your animals by quarentining new arrivals and regularly disinfecting their cage and cage furniture.

"All of that disinfecting, sanitizing, sterilizing, de-parasitizing, hospitalizing, stuff is nothing but bandaids. Bandaids! Used to hold the animal together, to cover up for poor husbandry. UVB lighting: a bandaid. "

The first three things you mentioned are just the same thing restated over and over. However, In my opinion, keeping a cage clean and taking care of sick animals IS proper husbandry, not a "bandaid".

"If you don't keep your humidity up where it should be, you'd better use a bandaid by disinfecting the waterbowl every day. Low temperatures, inadequate amount or quality of food? You'd better sterilize your cage often. "

Your reasoning is like stating that if you feed your kids their vegetables and keep the AC set at a good temp. that you don't have to keep the house clean or provide vaccinations. ALL of these things comprise proper husbandry, not just the things you want to pick because they are easiest. You can keep your cage as clean as a laboratory, but your animals will still get sick without proper temps and humidity. On the flip side, you can have the most precisely calculated humidity and temperature measurements and your animals will still get sick if you allow them to lay in bacteria-laden cages. Neither one is a bandaid, because neither one will solve any complications caused by the other.

"I don't quarantine the kids that come to play with my kids, either."
And I bet your kids get sick every once in a while too. However, kids get vaccinations that prevent them from getting the major diseases that used to kill people commonly. Your snakes don't, and they need more protection.

"I'll tell you what. If you can name one thing that is guaranteed to show itself within a 3-month quarrantine period that would not show up during a 2-week quarrantine period, I'll seriously reconsider what I've been successfully doing for nearly 40 years. "

Well, get ready. Inclusion Body Disease takes an average of around 30 days in incubate before symptoms become apparent. Not to mention that with only 1 1/2 weeks (like your newly acquired snake) you most likely can not see if it is shedding correctly (incorrect shedding can be a sign of disease). Also, with your ten-day or so quarentine you could easily undershoot the time it could take for a snake to regurgitate (as it can happen days after being fed) and regurgitation is also a symptom of diease. As are loose stools or constipation, but you may not see stools within the 10 day period if the snake was fed a large meal or if the snake wasn't fed for a while.

I'm not saying to follow your snakes around with microscopes and spend every single day cleaning the cages, but I strongly believe that cages should be disinfected every time a snake defecates or passes urates, and I strongly believe that everybody should quarentine newly acquired pets for around two months before allowing them to have contact with other pets. Most "experts" say to quarentine for as long as 6 months, but I'm not that fanatical about it.

Things change when people develop better, more successful ways of doing things. Just because you have not sanitized your cages and bowls regularly or provided UVA/UVB lighting for forty years doesn't mean you can't start now. People do things differently these days because they work better. Bearded dragons, for example, thrive better, have better coloration, and seem to live longer when they are given access to UVA/UVB lighting. I don't know about you, but I would much rather have my animals THRIVE than just live.

I think you should bump up your definition of "just the basics" to include proper sanitization (sanitizing only when the animals poops or "pee"s is perfectly acceptable) and preventing the spread of disease. I mean, come on, how is a clean cage and NOT being exposed to possible diease trivial? Really now.

It might take a little more time and effort, but if your going to have animals, you should be willing to dedicate that time and effort to them.

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~Sara~
4 Leopard Geckos
4 ball pythons
1.0 Black-lined plated lizard (Lizzy Butt)
0.1 Burmese Python (Pixil)
5 Rats
6 Mice
1.1 Gerbils
1.1 Dogs (Ozzie and Mandy)
0.1 Cat (Isis)
0.0.1 Synodontis Catfish (Big Spotty Fish)
0.1 Convict Cichlid
0.0.1 blood parrot cichlid
0.0.1 African Featherfin Catfish

The hardest thing about forums, Internet, is that one can't hear the tone of voice of the other, hear how things are actually being said, seeing facial expressions, etc...

My first reply to you must seem worse than what I had in mind while typing it. When I read Randy's reply I thought, "Oh no, it must sound harsh," and I didn't intend for it to. I went back & read it again but I still didn't think it did, but I know that could be due to my knowing what I meant, where other people may not.

At least you didn't all-out blast me. Ha! Ha! A bit feisty, spunky, but I like that. It shows strength in your beliefs. Now, I love a good debate and it’s hard for me to walk away from one. The problem is too many people take things personally, even though nothing personal may be said. If you can handle a friendly debate, one that we attack each other’s arguments, like we’ve both done thus far, and not attack each other, as they say at the beginning of an Ultimate Fighting Championship match, “Let’s get it on!” Ha! Ha!

However, if you can’t handle it and are easy to get your feelings hurt, please close your browser or find another post to read.

For the record, my main point was that most keepers these days are too obsessed with cleaning and try too hard to protect their captives, which sometimes can do more harm than good.

Now, I'm not bragging, by any means, I don't feel I have anything to brag about. I'm not a braggart, anyway. Not my style. But you have to realize that I've been keeping reptiles for nearly 40 years. Just a few months shy of 40yrs. Granted, not at the pace I'm at now, though. NOBODY has a 40-year lucky streak. Nobody. I must be doing something right.

I have never had to take an animal to a vet due to something I did or didn't do. When I was young & inexperienced (15) I took a newly acquired burmese to a vet for a respiratory infection he had when I got it. Several months ago I had to take a newly acquired bearded dragon to a vet for severe impaction that it had when I got it. (BTW, never keep a bearded dragon on the crushed walnut shells. The poor dragon didn't make it, even after $200 in vet bills.)

That's it! Two vet visits, 30yrs apart, within 40 years. Neither of which falls back on me. So don't listen to me, I don't know what the heck I'm doin'. Ha! Ha! Ahh, smile! Just pickin' at ya.

Please don't take this personal, I've nothing against you and I'm not trying to be a Mr. Smarty Britches. Heck, I don't have time for a debate, I'm a busy man. But, I do want to take the time to try to get people (and maybe not necessarily you) to realize what I'm talking about, about how some people carry things too far.

> > > If I had to use my water bowl for both drinking and soaking/defecating, I would want it disinfected between uses.

No offense, but if you had to use your water bowl frequently for soaking/defecating, your owner most likely has an illegitimate (screen) top for the aquarium you're being kept in. What kind of top do you have for the aquarium that your burm's soaking in?

You do realize that most of the time that's a sign of low humidity, which needs a large water dish as a bandaid. Not always, but usually.

> > > I don't know anybody that follows their animals around with microscopes or wears gloves when handling (unless to avoid being bitten), so I'm assuming you were just exagerating for dramatic effect.

Don't let the details get ya. Please note that in the 2nd sentence of the 9th paragraph of my first reply to you, as seen here: Reply, I stated; "I even know people that practically follow their reptiles around with a microscope..."

And in the 5th sentence of the 9th paragraph I stated; "...a keeper practically wearing a surgical mask & gloves..."

So, yes, I was obviously exaggerating for dramatic effect while also pointing out the hideousness of the subject.

Heh, I couldn't believe the microscope thing, either, when I first read it, straight from the horse's typed words. I kid you not! This woman claimed to be a bearded dragon expert, although she'd only kept one dragon for a little over a year. She said she checked every feces for parasites with a microscope and would pump that sucker full of napalm (or whatever) if she saw one. ("pump that sucker full of napalm" are my words, obviously, not her's.)

> > > In the wild they can move and don't have the risk of laying in soiled substrate. If we are going to confine them to tiny enclosures, the least we can do is keep it clean.

Now you're throwing hand grenades at the two hundred yard sniper target. Ha! Ha! Seriously though, who said anything about making a snake lay in soiled substrate, not cleaning up after them? I surely did not. Don't jump to conclusions, try to twist things around, or ignore all the keywords and scenarios I used. Sterilizing, hospitalizing, surgical mask & gloves. All representative of as germ-free of an environment as one could get.

Allow me to let you in on a lil' secret. "Clean" does not have to be sterile. I can clean water bowls with soap & water, water & brush, water & sand, water and....., well, more water.

> > > This is a weird statement, but I will try to address it. Reptiles are usually born healthy, but they don't stay that way without some good husbandry skills. To say that a healthy animal is not affected by germs or parasites is a flip-flop, because germs and parasites are what make animals not healthy.

If you think that one's weird just read more of my posts. There's plenty more where that one came from. Ha! Ha! I is who I is. I ain't who I ain't. I am me, Happy Hillbilly.

Germs/parasites:
You're close, but not quite close enough. We've gotta get you a rifle instead of those handgrenades. And NO, not for you to shoot me with. Hahahaha!!!

"they don't stay that way (healthy) without some good husbandry skills"
Correct.

"To say that a healthy animal is not affected by germs or parasites is a flip-flop,"
No John Kerry here. Far, far away.

"because germs and parasites are what make animals not healthy."
You're only looking at one aspect while I'm looking at two.

Are there not bad germs AND good germs? Bad organisms AND good organisms? When a healthy animal encounters bad germs/organisms, their body & mind is in tip-top shape and will effectively fight off the attack. Bank on it!!! It is only when their immune system is weak that they are unable to fight off an attack and are therefore affected by bad germs, parasites, etc... If an animal's immune system is weak, that said animal is NOT healthy. The human body works the same way.

So you see, by what you're saying, the ball python that I rescued last year should've been on it's death bed. It should've had caboodles of illnesses, infections, and whatnots.

The ball python was in an aquarium that hadn't been cleaned in over a year. A year's worth of feces & urates this snake was laying in. It was pitiful and stunk worse than my rat cages have ever thought about stinkin'. No scale rot, no mouth rot, no mites, no RI, even though it had the typical screen top. Hmmmmmmm. How could that be? Maybe because it was at least being fed & heated? Maybe it was actually as healthy as it appeared to be? Hmmmmmmm.

> > > keeping a cage clean and taking care of sick animals IS proper husbandry, not a "bandaid".

Here we go again. Are you going to try to tell me & the rest of the world that I said keeping a cage clean & caring for sick animals is NOT proper husbandry, that it's a bandaid? Are you trying to tell us that I spoke AGAINST cleaning cages? It's all in black & white in my first reply to you. I ask that you back up your insinuation or recant it.

> > > You can keep your cage as clean as a laboratory, but your animals will still get sick without proper temps and humidity.

BINGO!

> > > On the flip side, you can have the most precisely calculated humidity and temperature measurements and your animals will still get sick if you allow them to lay in bacteria-laden cages.

Wrongo! Point already made in previous paragraphs found within this post.

> > > Well, get ready. Inclusion Body Disease takes an average of around 30 days in incubate before symptoms become apparent.

Ha! I've been ready.

IBD - It's been awhile since I've read up on it so I may very well get something wrong here. I don't mind being wrong and I'm good about admitting it when I am.

Although 30 days may be the typical incubation period (I don't know, so I'll take your word on it), I'm pretty sure that there are known cases that have taken quite a bit longer. Oh, and that's just for a snake that's infected with it, that doesn't include carriers. Does it? No, it doesn't. Are you not aware that snakes can be carriers, showing no symptoms at all, and can pass it on many months later? And what good does your reducing quarantine to two months instead of 3 - 6 months do to safeguard against that? Is it really OK for you to reduce your quarantine period but not me?

For the record, I was informed that this rescued burmese python had absolutely no contact with any other snake for the whole 7yrs of it's life. IBD incubation period has timed out, unless we're setting a record here.

Details, you've got to pay attention to details. They're killing you. Please note that I said, "I'll tell you what. If you can name one thing that is guaranteed to show itself within a 3-month quarantine period that would not show up during a 2-week quarantine period,..."

> > > Not to mention that with only 1 1/2 weeks (like your newly acquired snake) you most likely can not see if it is shedding correctly (incorrect shedding can be a sign of disease).

Please expound on this. Just how many times have you known of a bad shed being caused by a disease?

> > > I'm not saying to follow your snakes around with microscopes and spend every single day cleaning the cages,

And I wasn’t implying that you did.

> > > …but I strongly believe that cages should be disinfected every time a snake defecates or passes urates,

So everyone with aspen bedding, soil, leaf litter, etc…, should dump it all out & disinfect the whole cage every time their snake defecates or passes urates?

> > > Most "experts" say to quarentine for as long as 6 months, but I'm not that fanatical about it.

So the experts are fanatics because they suggest 6 months instead of your 2 months? But, you’re not a fanatical because of your 2 months versus my 2 weeks? I’m just trying to make a point, that’s all. No, I don’t think your 2 months makes you a fanatic. As far as I know you’re not a fanatic.

> > > Things change when people develop better, more successful ways of doing things.

You know what I’m going to say, don’t you? If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it. Ha! Ha! In the old days we built our own cages out of wood. You rarely saw snakes in aquariums with screen tops. We used regular soap & water periodically. There wasn’t any “antibacterial” soap.

> > > Bearded dragons, for example, thrive better, have better coloration, and seem to live longer when they are given access to UVA/UVB lighting.

Sorry, but I happen to know that you have absolutely no proof that bearded dragons thrive better or live longer with UVA/UVB lighting. None whatsoever. None exists. I challenge you to prove me wrong on it. I’ve read the reports, I’ve debated the issue before. Sure, you can go to many websites that any 13yr old can create & copy/paste assumptions all day long. But the fact remains that in the case of bearded dragons (staying in context, but I could go further) the best report admits insufficient evidence.

> > > People do things differently these days because they work better.

Oh, how I wish that were true. Can you explain to me where IBD, the adenovirus, and many other diseases common today were 40 years ago? I can tell you were they were not. But the stay more in context, I’m talking about how most of today’s generation of keepers are too obsessed with eliminating germs, bacteria, organisms, etc…, to where they’re actually killing the good ones, the ones that God created to combat the bad ones, naturally.

Let me ask you this since I see you have fish. Do you sanitize the whole tank every time you clean it? Do you vacuum up all organic matter under the gravel every time? Replace 100% of the water every time? Of course not! You would be getting rid of beneficial organisms. There really isn’t much difference.

> > > It might take a little more time and effort, but if your going to have animals, you should be willing to dedicate that time and effort to them.

Ha! Ha!

No offense, but I hardly believe that you’re the one that should be telling me that.

Here's a quick list of the majority of animals under my care.

1.7.0 burmese pythons (5 are babies from last clutch)
2.1.0 corn snakes
0.0.1 dumerils boa
0.0.1 ball python
0.0.1 leopard gecko
0.0.1 eastern box turtle (another recent rescue)
1.1.0 savannah monitors
1.0.0 nile monitor
1.0.0 american saddlebreed horse
0.1.0 mustang/quarter horse
1.1.0 german shepherds (breeders)
1.1.0 mutts
2.0.0 guinea pigs
1.0.0 quaker parrot
0.1.0 white broad breasted turkey (Happy Thanksgiving!)
12 rabbits
75-plus rats
And a few others...

(BTW, that’s not a bragging list, as it’s hardly anything to brag about. There are plenty of people here that can dwarf that list.)

With 40yrs experience, only two vet calls unrelated to my care, no deaths other than natural causes (other than the aforementioned beardie), and a list of animals directly under my care like that above, I am anxiously awaiting your record & level of experience. Maybe then will I listen to you instruct me on how to care for my animals.

OK, time to end this novel.

Bottom line:
I’m talking about how most of today’s generation of keepers are too obsessed with eliminating germs, bacteria, organisms, etc…, to where they’re actually killing the good ones, the ones that God created to combat the bad ones, naturally.

In the name of “prevention,” people are unnecessarily treating for parasites and killing all the beneficial organisms, only to have to turn right around and administer more medicine to help replenish the good that they just killed. Go figure!

If an animal has a severe parasite infestation, by all means, treat it, but not in the name of prevention. If a cage has urates and/or feces, you can simply spot clean it, it's OK. You can disinfect the whole thing on a regularly scheduled “thorough” cleaning. You don't have to call in the surgical scrub crew every cleaning.

I honestly do hope you're smiling and not fuming. And just because we don't agree on this issue doesn't mean they aren't millions of others that we can & would agree on.

Thanks for the debate!

Have a great day!
HH
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Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

It seems as though we both have strong convictions on the matter

I'm not old enough to have 40 years of experience under my belt. However, I've got about twelve years of heavy reptile keeping to go by. The only animals I've had develop any sort of problem were either rescues or injured/orphaned wildlife. Because these is the ONLY problems that I have encountered, the only conclusion that I can come to is that I must be doing something right.

The truth is that neither of us are testing our ways on very delicate animals though. The most delicate animal in your possession is your box turtle, and you haven't had it very long. And while I've cared for hard-to-keep animals via my rehabilitation volunteer work, I've not kept them in my own home. I do know that the majority of people who keep high-experience reptiles don't keep them in the same way that the average Joe keeps a ball python.

I'm sorry if I implied that your cages were dirty, but to me it sounded... uh... not clean. You said that you don't disinfect your water bowls or your cage very often, and with this last post you included that you don't remove all bedding once it has been soiled and peed on. I know that my burm doesn't pass just clumps of urates when she does "#1", she expells a lot of liquid along with it. When I was at my local petstore (that focuses only on reptiles and fish) I saw an 18 foot burm and she was not at all shy about "letting it gush". I just don't see how you could "spot clean" when a good portion of the lower layer of bedding would be soaked in snake pee. It's not the great wild, and there is at most a few inches of bedding to absorb it. As for good bacteria... things don't get expelled from our bodies because they are GOOD for us.

Oh, how I wish that were true. Can you explain to me where IBD, the adenovirus, and many other diseases common today were 40 years ago? I can tell you were they were not.

Keepers today tend to have larger concentrations of animals and more species sharing the same general area, which is a easy way to cross contaminate animals. Most likely these things existed, but we didn't know as much about them.
I can say that people today are keeping animal species that they could only dream of successfully keeping 40 years ago. With more and better knowledge, we can breed animals in captivity that we couldn't 40 years ago. Nobody advanced by just sticking with what they had been doing all along, you see?

The ball python was in an aquarium that hadn't been cleaned in over a year. A year's worth of feces & urates this snake was laying in. It was pitiful and stunk worse than my rat cages have ever thought about stinkin'. No scale rot, no mouth rot, no mites, no RI, even though it had the typical screen top. Hmmmmmmm. How could that be? Maybe because it was at least being fed & heated? Maybe it was actually as healthy as it appeared to be? Hmmmmmmm

I seriously don't think that you should bring up a story that illustrates to possible new snake keepers that they can neglect their animal all they want and nothing bad will come from it. It is hard for me to believe that a person would neglect such things as cleaning a CLEARLY dirty cage, but still keep up on feeding properly and monitoring temperature levels. That doesn't make sense at all. That's as far as I'm going to elaborate on my opinion on such a story.

"No offense, but if you had to use your water bowl frequently for soaking/defecating, your owner most likely has an illegitimate (screen) top for the aquarium you're being kept in. What kind of top do you have for the aquarium that your burm's soaking in?
You do realize that most of the time that's a sign of low humidity, which needs a large water dish as a bandaid."

I did take offense at that comment, which probably put a damper my mood when it came to replying to the rest of your post. First off, I didn't say frequently. If your burms never soak in their bowls then you have either some freaky burms or you simply don't watch them enough.... or they don't have big enough bowls to soak in. I've spent a good $300 on temperature and humidity monitoring devices for that cage alone. My humidity is PERFECT, my temperatures are PERFECT, and I make sure they are multiple times a day (or maybe that's trivial?) My girl sometimes poops in her bowl, then again so do my other snakes and my plated lizard. I've done enough research to know that it is natural. As for a top, sorry, don't have one. The roof of my cage is solid and it opens from the front. When she was younger I had her in a 55 gallon with a screen top, and I used aluminum sheeting to cover all but a fourth of it. According to my two digital humidity cages and 2 temperature gauges, I was able to maintain proper gradients in that cage too.... there are ways to modify almost anything to make sure it works properly.

As for fish, I do gravel-vac my tank once a week. I remove about 25% of the water each time. I've got a filter that is over-rated for my tank by about 30 gallons. My oldest fish is around nine years old. "Big Spotty Fish" is quite impressive, I should see if I can get a picture of him once my camera is fixed

I have to go shortly, but you wanted a list of my experience. I have been responsible for these animals, mostly in the rhelm of rescue/placements or wildlife rehabilitation... I'm sure I will miss a few, but oh well... (oh, and by the way, it is much more difficult to take an animal that is already sick and return it to health then it is to start with healthy animals, so just keep that in mind)...

Burmese pythons
Corn snakes
Ball Pythons
Leopard Geckos
Fish
Rabbits
Dogs
Cats
Gerbils
Rats
Hamsters
Guinea Pigs
Ferrets
Carpet Pythons
House Geckos
Green Anoles
Brown Anoles
Green Grass Snakes
Black-lined plated lizards
Long-Tail Grass lizards
jacksons chameleons
vieled chameleons
American Toads
Fire Bellied Toads
fowler's toads
Green Tree Frogs
Gray Tree Frogs
Savannah monitors
Kingsnakes
Pacmans
Millipedes (assorted)
Green Iguanas
Green Water Dragons
Blue-tailed skinks
Three-toed box turtles
Common Snapping Turtles
Alligator Snapping Turtles
Red-eared Sliders
Eqyptian Uromastyx
Mali Uromastyx
Somali Uromastyx
Narrow-Mouth Toad (painted)
Australian Whites Tree Frog
Bearded Dragons
Skunk Geckos
Various Newts and Salamanders
Chinchillas
Opossums
Squirrels
Racoons
Flying Squirrels
Tons of different wild bird species
Armadillos
Rat snakes
Rattlesnakes
Various Bats
Bear cubs
Chickens
Conures
Parakeets
Cockatiels
Finches
Cockatoos
Canaries
Horses
Cattle
Pigs
Turkies
Guineas

and I know I am missing more, but hey, I think you get the picture. I've worked at six differnt wildlife rehabilitation centers, dozens of domestic animal shelters, and am a certified animal rehabilitator. I do not support breeding unless you can better the species or breed with the outcome, so I have only bred a few species.

That said, I've got college midterms coming up and I've got to study.

-----
~Sara~
4 Leopard Geckos
4 ball pythons
1.0 Black-lined plated lizard (Lizzy Butt)
0.1 Burmese Python (Pixil)
5 Rats
6 Mice
1.1 Gerbils
1.1 Dogs (Ozzie and Mandy)
0.1 Cat (Isis)
0.0.1 Synodontis Catfish (Big Spotty Fish)
0.1 Convict Cichlid
0.0.1 blood parrot cichlid
0.0.1 African Featherfin Catfish

First, let me start out by commending you for your rehabilitation volunteering. Unfortunately, that's the only positive thing I have to say about your last post.

Secondly, my statement "No offense, but if you had to use your water bowl frequently for soaking/defecating..." was just that, a statement, not quoting you. Notice, if you can, that I did not say that's what you said.

You're debating skills leave little to be desired. You have miserably failed to accurately quote me on anything. Or maybe you weren't trying to be accurate, but rather intentionally mislead, which in my book, is a flat out lie. I, take offense to that.

You know, I can put up with a lot of things but being called a liar is not one of them. In fact, it down right pisses me off. You're posts are representative of a typical inexperienced (fill in the blank) that can't win an argument or debate with a shred of knowledge, wisdom, experience, etc... People that have to stray out of context of the issue at hand, create diversions in order to get the spotlight off of them, insinuate that the other is a liar, and on, and on.....

If your schoolwork is anything like your debating skills & posts, you'll be lucky to graduate college with your grandkids. Ha! Ha! But hang in there, granny.

> > > You said that you don't disinfect your water bowls or your cage very often,

Lie #1
What I said was "I don't disinfect water bowls everytime I change the water... ...I don't disinfect the whole cage at every cleaning."
Get your facts straight.

> > > and with this last post you included that you don't remove all bedding once it has been soiled and peed on.

Lie #2
How about you telling me what I use for substrate? Well, I don't use a couple of inches of newspaper. Nor aspen, nor leaf litter. I use aproximately 4 - 5 layers of newspaper, to which most of the regular participating members here can attest that I have stated before.

Let me set the record straight because I'm not gonna stand for you telling any more lies about what I said or didn't say. Yeah, the passion has kicked into overdrive. Beep! Beep!

You said, > > > "...but I strongly believe that cages should be disinfected every time a snake defecates or passes urates,"

I replied, "So everyone with aspen bedding, soil, leaf litter, etc…, should dump it all out & disinfect the whole cage every time their snake defecates or passes urates?"

Please show me just how the heck you managed to come up with the ludicrous comment you attributed to me. You would make a good fisherman telling tales like that. That's pitiful. Have you no more self-respect than to go on such a large forum and discredit yourself so?

And while I was not amused with the fact that you insinuated I lied about the ball python's cage condition, I truly don't give a rat's fanny. Ha! Ha! Suffice it to say that I'm a good judge of character. And you have shown that you are quite a character. I mean, after all, what's in a name? "GrotesqueBurgess" Ha! Ha! Ha!

> > > According to my two digital humidity cages and 2 temperature gauges, I was able to maintain proper gradients in that cage too....

I hate to be the one to inform you but proper husbandry is reading the animal to assess whether or not the humidity & temperatures are proper, not reading digital readouts. Maybe one of these days you'll learn that care sheets are merely starting points. True hsubandry is the ability to read, interpret, the animal, it's actions & reactions, while making adjustments to its environment that brings forth ultimate conditions.

Believe it or not, there's more to husbandry than keeping watch over some animals for an hour or two a few days a week, and turning temperature control knobs left & right as instructed.

Time to sign off now. This is usually where I do a cordial stint or two. To show that I've still got a sense of humor in light of everything, see the attached image below.

Later!
HH

-----
Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

So, you're saying that my posts don't have a shred of knowledge or fact, but ALL of your posts are simply repeating over and over "I do it this way and have for 40 years and don't have any problems with it, so it's the right way to do it.". You have no less insulted me by insinuating that I keep my burm in an inadequate cage, don't keep my temperatures and humidity where they should be, and don't have experience caring for animals than I have insulted you by insinuating that you should sanitize your cages more and quarantine for longer periods. I base my opinions of husbandry on what I have learned from veterinarians, rehabbers, hundreds of books, and thousands of websites. I take it all in, apply what seems to be the general consensus, and see if it works. It DOES.
I have yet to find any book, website, vet, serious breeder, or rehabber (that doesn't have money to save or time to save)that recommends what you have been recommending.
You can resort to pettiness all you want. But let me help you understand where I am coming from by giving you a few tips:

If you say “No offense” before saying something, you are going to say something that CAN be taken offensively, I.E. it IS a personal statement. To say, “No offense, but if you had to use your water bowl for soaking and defecating, then something’s wrong, blah blah blah” then you ARE saying that you believe something is wrong with my husbandry techniques. Don’t double-speak and say that I took it the wrong way. However, I’ve notice this trend of yours, and I’ll try to understand.

I do apologize that I jumped to the conclusion that you used aspen bedding, leaf litter, soil, etc. Understand that it was an easy conclusion from your sentences where you stating that you spot clean. Do you cut away the soiled parts? Or do you just remove piece by piece of newspaper until it isn’t soaked through?

Secondly, books and care guides are written by people who have done the tweaking to achieve optimal success in their animals. To throw them all out is idiotic. Why would you throw away useful knowledge and start at square one? If I take the general consensus of hundreds of sources of information, apply them to my animals, and find success in doing so, how DARE you bash me and say I do not have good husbandry skills?! I DO use them as starting points, have found what works well, and try to stick to it. It’s a little presumptuous to think that I do not.

Also, you “yelled” at me for saying “and with this last post you included that you don't remove all bedding once it has been soiled and peed on.”. Uh, DUH. You said that you spot clean, and spot cleaning is exactly what I said it was- not removing all bedding once it has been soiled and peed on.

You were also angry when I said “You said that you don't disinfect your water bowls or your cage very often”. Well, think of it this way. You said that people were fanatical (pretty much) if they disinfect their cages and bowls once a week. That lets me conclude that you do not sanitize weekly. I find anything less than weekly to be not often. I think we have different definitions for this word, and that is why it is a point of interest in this post.

I’m quite done with this conversation.
I did imply that I did not believe the ball python in a cage with a years worth of poop yet still perfectly healthy story. I don’t believe it because I have had to rescue animals that were in much less stressful situations that had major problems. I don’t believe it because nobody is going to monitor their temperatures and feed great foods but neglect the basics such as cleaning. Nobody is going to keep their humidity at a good level (which is hard to do with a screen top), and keep the water bowl full, but NOT remove putrid feces, especially for a year. When people neglect animals to such an extent, they just aren’t known to NOT neglect the precision areas like good temps, humidity, and regular feeding. It is unheard of, so forgive me for not believing it. If anything, neglect usually starts the other way around. The person doesn’t monitor temps or humidity, doesn’t feed often or well, and then stops keeping things clean.
The rest of my implications were based on the things you said. Re-read them and you will see that it is EASY to come to the conclusions that I came to.
I understand that you feel attacked. It’s okay, I’ll end with this post. But you should go back over the entire conversation with a less-biased eye. Neither of us has been exactly civil. Both of us hold strong beliefs on the subject, and I doubt that either of us will change the other’s mind.
Have a wonderful day, and the animation was cute.

Oh- and if it makes anything better… if I could, I would reword my first post to say,
“Wow she is so little and cute. On a side note, most people recommend that you quarantine your reptiles from each other for more than a week and a half.”

I realize that my “You really should” was quite strong, and I shouldn’t have said it that way.

Oh- and “GrotesqueBurgess” name comes from an album title and my last name. It has nothing to do with my character.

And last but not least: I actually wasn’t upset by your second post until I read the follow up post by Randy. Reading that post made me think that your post was meant to bash me, and I went on the defensive. So lets just blame it all on him J/K.

A cute picture from a rehab center I worked at to make your heart melt:

-----
~Sara~
4 Leopard Geckos
4 ball pythons
1.0 Black-lined plated lizard (Lizzy Butt)
0.1 Burmese Python (Pixil)
5 Rats
6 Mice
1.1 Gerbils
1.1 Dogs (Ozzie and Mandy)
0.1 Cat (Isis)
0.0.1 Synodontis Catfish (Big Spotty Fish)
0.1 Convict Cichlid
0.0.1 blood parrot cichlid
0.0.1 African Featherfin Catfish

Oh, I see how it is... blame me. LOL Yes, I did see where you said you were just kidding.

It just seems to me that the burmese python forum is a bit different from the ball python forums. We are very supportive and have less fighting and bashing here. The majority of my collection is ball pythons but rarely post for fear of being personally attacked.

I feel that you both have very valid points. I also feel that if something works, don't fix it. What works for one doesn't always work for the masses. If you ask 10 different experts, you will get 10 different answers. Who is right??? Is anyone wrong? It is all a matter of difference in opinion.

I guess my original post was taken out of context as well, it was supposed to be a joke, (hense the HaHa) not a call from Big John McCarthy. (We watch the UFC too) Sorry if you felt otherwise.

Take care.

Randy
-----
Randy and Michelle
Art In Scales
(719) 439-4199
info@artinscales.com

I took your post as you were joking but with a nice subtle hint, and I appreciate that. My wife quit dropping hints and started just haulin' off and whoppin' me upside my noggin'. All while she yells at the top of her lungs, "Let's get it on!!!" Hahahahaha!!!

See ya, troublemaker! Hahahaha!!!

Mike
-----
Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

Truce! Cease fire! Ha! Ha!

Ahh, heck! You had to go & soften up on me just when you were getting going good. I'm glad you did.

I see I've got some things to work on. I apologize for my ill-conceived comments. It's been almost a year since I last debated anything and it would suit me just fine if it was twice that long before it happens again.

At any rate, I stand corrected, you're quite a sport! If I ever need my cage SANITIZED I know who to call. Hahahaha!!! And if you need yours dirtied up, you know who to call. Ha! Ha!

Let me try to explain the ball python rescue a little better real quick & I'll let ya go since you've got midterms coming up and I don't want to waste any more of your time.

The ball python rescue was like the burmese rescue. Both situations stemmed from fear and not the traditional neglect that we normally think about when thinking "rescue."

A child's mom & dad are divorced. Boy (9yrs old) spends week with dad during summer. Dad buys him a ball python and sends it home with the boy.

Mom is petrified of snakes but very compassionate towards animals. Wouldn't let son handle snake for fear of it biting him & getting loose. It's in a 20-gal critter-keeper tank with sliding screen top. There was a thermometer in the tank.

Mom told me she kept a light on the snake and even changed bulb wattage during winter months to keep temps up. They would slide top open just far enough to get a mouse in & close it back. She said she felt so sorry for the snake & didn't want it to suffer, tried to give it away to several people but nobody wanted it until I heard about it.

It's more of a miracle than anything that the snake was in such good health. I'll admit that. If it wasn't in good health during all that, it would've been quite a mess. They didn't have top covered (I asked) but kept water in the bowl. Maybe the room it was in was very humid as this is a humid area. I don't know.

The rescued burmese has pretty much the same story but ignorance led to neglect in the form of its undernourishment. Woman LOVED it but was terrified of it since it was so big now, versus the baby it was. She even gave me the last frozen rat she had for it.

When I opened the door of the parrot cage it was kept in the woman & her son practically bolted to the opposite side of the room out of fear.

By the way, like I said before, there wasn't anything wrong with what you said in your first post, or how you said it. And don't let this keep you from saying something in the future to someone else, just as long as it ain't me. Ha! Ha! J/K

OK, where did Randy run & hide? Randy! I hope you're happy with all the trouble you've caused! Ha! Ha!

Here's a few pics for a grin or two and maybe even an "Awe!"

First up is a rescued horse (Diamond) with her newborn mule foal (Rosie).

My daughter with Rosie.

Daughter & son with newest rescued horse. 1yr old colt (Blackfoot Traveler - "Blackfoot" for short)

And down at the bottom is "Pooch" the family dog, from a 1963 photo. My dad dressed him up & set him in the pedal car. Reckon my sense of humor's hereditary?

Having an older brother, my life was filled with "hand-me-downs," so it came as no surprise that I got Pooch's pedal car when he outgrew it.

Hang in there & have a great day!
Mike
(HH)

-----
Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

Truce. I really never set out to cause an argument... really. I just felt attacked and went on the defensive, and I'm sure I probably made you feel attacked too.

It's sad that people get animals and then become afraid of them I've seen it happen a dozen times myself.
It's not limited to reptiles either. I've known people who were afraid of their own dogs, and even a woman afraid of her horse (although, I do understand that horses can be very dangerous. I guess dogs can too)

That baby mule is SO cute. You should enter it in some kind of contest

And now, I happen to think that my 12 year old dog, Mandy, is quite cute... and she happens to have a good remedy for both of us in her toy

-----
~Sara~
4 Leopard Geckos
4 ball pythons
1.0 Black-lined plated lizard (Lizzy Butt)
0.1 Burmese Python (Pixil)
5 Rats
6 Mice
1.1 Gerbils
1.1 Dogs (Ozzie and Mandy)
0.1 Cat (Isis)
0.0.1 Synodontis Catfish (Big Spotty Fish)
0.1 Convict Cichlid
0.0.1 blood parrot cichlid
0.0.1 African Featherfin Catfish

Glad to see you two make up. Ha Ha!!

Later,
Randy
-----
Randy and Michelle
Art In Scales
(719) 439-4199
info@artinscales.com

Very beautiful snakes...good luck with them.
-----
1.0 albino Speckled king
0.1 speckled king
0.1 desert cali king
1.1 ball python
65 common rats
25 african soft hair rats
100 mice
7 degus
2.0.6 girbils
1.0 blue and gold macaw
1.1 orange wing amazons
0.1 tin african grey
1.0 sugar glider
.1 beagle
1.0 pink toe tarantula
1.1 borneo bloods (comming soon)
0.1 hell spouse
3.2 children (kids)

shes gorgeous

Isn't it unusual for a burm to be 7 years old and under 8 feet long? What caused the lack of size, improper feeding?
-----
~* Jen *~

Pink Lady Constrictors

Hello Jen!
Yes, it's very unusual for a 7yr old burmese python to only be 7 1/2ft long. It's been severely underfed, undernourished.

A 7yr old female burmese python, on average, should be between 12 - 14 feet long, or even more. That's a conservative figure.

My 3yr old female burmese is aprox. 10 1/2ft.

Take care!
HH
-----
Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

If you scroll down to "A Rescue Story", you'll see the conditions the snake was kept in. People were afraid of it and kept it in a parrot cage. I still don't see how you could keep a snake in parrot cage...WEIRD!