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Is any locality information available? I am expecting some shortly.
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"Life without risk is to merely exist."

>>Is any locality information available? I am expecting some shortly.
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>>"Life without risk is to merely exist."

The only pure melanistic (black) race of Varanus salvator is Varanus salvator komaini (Nuthphand 1987), which is only found in La-Ngu District and some nearby islands off shore from it which also belong La-Ngu District in Satun Province, Thailand. Unless the ones available are the progeny of the only ones ever bred in captivity quite recently in Costa Rica by Quetzal Dwyer and Monica Perez, they have been smuggled out of Thailand, which prohibits the export of monitor lizards.

I really know little about Salvators, but it appears there are three types of black waters in the states, komaini, togian, and that new one that Glades brought in a few years ago, you know, the mini KD. I heard these were being discribed as something new, but I did not hear if that happened. Also, all three have been advertised in recent months on KS.

I know of a number of people who have them and I heard of a few breedings. One advertisement showed a neonate hatching.

Also, the point is, these are all Appendix 2. Which means, if they are in the country they are legal. No matter what country they come from or if they export or not.

In this case, I believe sighthunter is bringing them in from Europe, which means, there WILL HAVE TO BE PERMITS ISSUED, then if they come in with permits, they are no problems. If FWS does not allow them in, then problem solved.

I am not positive but I believe FWS does not go by subspecies. So to apply for a permit all they need to do is label them V.salvator and as such, there will be no problem, as there are about a billion in the country already. Again, I am not positive. FWS can and do decline any species they want, so again, it they allow them in, then no problem. And it appears they are letting them in. Cheers

>>I really know little about Salvators, but it appears there are three types of black waters in the states, komaini, togian, and that new one that Glades brought in a few years ago, you know, the mini KD. I heard these were being discribed as something new, but I did not hear if that happened. Also, all three have been advertised in recent months on KS.
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1. Komaini is the only completely black and patternless race of water monitor found to date and comes from a country that prohibits their export for a period longer than they can live.
2. Togian Water Monitors are not completely black.
3. The ones Glades brought in were Varanus komaini, originating from one of the world’s most notorious animal smuggler, at least that is who they quoted to buyers concerning their origin and that same notorious smuggler told them where they ‘purportedly’ came from.
4. There is yet another ‘black’ Water Monitor from another location, but it is not completely black and has yet to show up in the pet trade.

>> I know of a number of people who have them and I heard of a few breedings. One advertisement showed a neonate hatching.
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Only two clutches have been produced from one location; they were the ones that posted the advertisement and the ones I referred to in the earlier post.

>> Also, the point is, these are all Appendix 2. Which means, if they are in the country they are legal. No matter what country they come from or if they export or not.

Oh, but it does matter, because only the country of origin (of the specimen) can legitimately make the permit, unless they were captive bred or could produce the paperwork from the country from which it was imported (or other proof that the specimen(s) were obtained legitimately). In the case of this variant, they are being smuggled and shipped out of Malaysia, so it is still a smuggled animal. (The only exception being two clutches produced in Costa Rica)

Your above statement is in error. This is why the Varanus olivaceus from the Philippines being ‘laundered’ in Japan are not allowed come into the US, as well as the Star Tortoises (Geochelone elegans) from India and Sri Lanka. Both of these examples are CITES Appendix 2 species coming from countries that prohibit export and are not allowed into the US.

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>> In this case, I believe sighthunter is bringing them in from Europe, which means, there WILL HAVE TO BE PERMITS ISSUED, then if they come in with permits, they are no problems. If FWS does not allow them in, then problem solved.
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>> I am not positive but I believe FWS does not go by subspecies. So to apply for a permit all they need to do is label them V.salvator and as such, there will be no problem, as there are about a billion in the country already. Again, I am not positive. FWS can and do decline any species they want, so again, it they allow them in, then no problem. And it appears they are letting them in.

Although you are correct that FWS does not go by subspecies, they do appear to have issues with animals smuggled out of countries that prohibit export. A subspecies that is endemic to only one small area within one country that prohibits export and thereby shows evidence of smuggling does present a rather large problem. (Does the Lacey Act right a bell?- prohibits trade in wildlife, fish, and plants that have been illegally taken, possessed, transported or sold. Thus, the Act underscores other federal, state, and foreign laws protecting wildlife by making it a separate offense to take, possess, transport, or sell wildlife that has been taken in violation of those laws. The Act prohibits the falsification of documents for most shipments of wildlife (a criminal penalty) and prohibits the failure to mark wildlife shipments (civil penalty).) So, Sighthunter has quite a bit to be worried about! Cheers

I know you get all hot and bothered, but the reality is, THEY ARE HERE. And in fair numbers.

And yes, I understand the lacy act. But that is exactly what I am talking about. You sir need to research the Lacy act. Its not against the law to export/import a black water monitor, V.salvator.

I going to guess that many thousand permits are issued each year for V.salvator. It does not matter what color they are. They can be pink, blue, green or black. They are still V.salvator. If they have some other major chacteristics other then color, you may have some grounds to work with.

Now for the point, if someone in Indo poaches them in Thailand, then moves them to Indo and ships them out. They are now legal. It becomes a local issue. Its up to thailand to enforce that(catch the bugger). Of course thats a Lacy act violation, but there is not way to prove it. Particularly when there are tens of thousands of Salvators being shipped. And thousands of possible localities they could come form.

Sir, this was explained to me by AN AGENT from FWS.

So you coming here and whining is silly, if you want to do something, work with the Thai government and catch that person you know so well. Or is what you know really insinuations and heresay?????

In your case, if you know whos doing it, and where they are. Then something is wrong with YOU. You see sir, conservation is best served before animals are taken from their habitat. ONCE they leave said habitat, then "that" game IS ACTUALLY OVER, as far as conservation is concerned. Once the animals our out of the country, its no longer conservation, its just another silly game. DO something important, catch them in the act.

Once they are in other countries, the very best thing both CITES and you can do is promote their captive breeding. You see, there is only a small market for expensive varanids, a very small market. It only takes a few captive breedings to fill that market. If folks see adds. like the ones on KS, that never sell those animals, there is no real need to poach them.

In this exact case(black waters) it took forever for glades to sell them. So you think they are going to do get them again????Do you think they will risks any legal problems for something they cannot sell? Heck no, instead, they will buy and sell a zillion normal waters, with no problem.

Remember, they said they were from a new locality. Sir, what makes your word better then theirs?????? By law, your word(opinion) cannot outweight theirs. If you have your suspisions, then prove them. Until you prove them, your just another whiner, not knowing what hes talking about.

I am not saying your wrong about these monitors being poached. But if your so right, what on earth is the matter with you? Do something about it. And clearly, this is not the place to be doing it. This is after the fact.

At this point, I consider you academic, that is, you talk, without doing. Thats all I can tell from your posts, you whine and whine, but no action. Well sir, heres a chance to prove me wrong, DO SOMETHING. Do it where its important, and that is not here. Cheers

The animals in Question will be coming from Quetzal and Monica in CR. They have been captive bred and originated from Glades as I understand it. They are suposed to attain a length of nine feet and I have only seen a picture of the male as he is impressive.
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"Life without risk is to merely exist."

The point is, you mentioned they are from out of our country. Then that means, you will need to bring them in with export permits from CR. If our fine government accepts that, then your finer that frog hair. But if for whatever reason, our government says no. Then you will have to find some in the states already. Simple and end of story.

What Mcota is taking about has nothing to do with that.

As you know, our government does not have to abide by CITES, it only has to use their regs as a minimum. So they can indeed deny their import, for any reason they choose. Thats up to them. Again, they will do what they do, all without Mcotas comments.

If Mcota is saying what your doing is illegal, which means it could be interpided as slander. Which is illegal as well. If he "knows"(can prove) those animals are illegal, then hes telling the truth, but until he can prove their were poached, he has not grounds to slander anyone. At this point, he is assuming they came from Thailand. And you know what that does. hahahahahahahahahaha

I am familiar with this as many said the same thing about my lacies or any ozzie monitors. But the truth and law is very different from those assumptions.

In this case, you are talking about doing something in a legal way, your not poaching them or paying someone to poach them. Your intending to import them in a legal way. So I see no reason for Mcota to say anything. The system is in place and your using the system.

I will say, good luck, I hope it goes smoothly. Cheers

he was merely stating facts as he sees them, as he is into the whole locality thing and you aren't. He didn't say Sighthunter was doing anything wrong just saying, oh surprise, not everyone is honest! But then again we all knew that part.

Sighthunter, good luck with them, hope everything goes well

But it was very borderline. And thats the point, to prevent that from happening.

Sighthunter posted his post, then another fella insinuates something is illegal. That indeed can lead to or is slander.

As sighthunter has posted open and honestly, I do not think he is planning anything shady. And yes, FWS does indeed read these forums. Or at least they use to.

The point remains the same. They are/were imported into this country legally. They are here. As indicated, they were also exported. That leaves a very legal paper trail to re-import them. But as I mentioned, FWS can do what they want and for no actual reason.

The fact is, V.salvator is appendix 2, and does not require paperwork. Once its in this country. If you see one in a pet shop, you can legally buy it. You do not have to worry or ask about its legally. And I do not care what color it is. This goes for all appendix 2 reptiles. Its not your task to keep track of whether they were imported legally or not. That is fish and wildlife services job. Of course, ESA or CITES 1 is another ball of wax.

Back to the question, to accuse or insinuate that someone is doing or participating is something illegal, can be interpited as slander.

You know what F&W can knock on my door and I will smile and give um an big ol Kansas smile and handshake cause I am trying to do things right. Just because the Feds cannot coordinate with with the State or any other parties involved only involves me. If I am up to no good, my thinking is that they need to look at things in black and white (How can we help our wildlife!) Nuff said.................Me
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"Life without risk is to merely exist."

Getting the appendix 2 cites and bringing the animals in from Costa Rica will be no problem . It's a done deal. MrCota was correct in the black white on paper version of the world but Frank is right in the real world scenario.

Ernie Eison

Westwoodreptiles.com

Which is the difference between academic and applied. heehehehehehehe. Sorry, you allowed dumb old me to do that one.

Actually there are zillions of ways to look at this and all laws for that matter. There is the letter of the law and the intend of the law. Then there is various individuals interpitation of the huge grey area between those. Thats why they make lawyers.

But this most likely is not about that. Its again the assumption that these animals came from Thailand, If they did, then many laws were broken, from the Thai's laws, to international lacie act violations. But if they didn't, as claimed, then no laws were broken.

And Yes, I am fully aware the Mcota believes black waters "ONLY" come from Thailand, and he may be right, but because two other black waters(not as black????) come from indo, then its very possible that these black waters also come from indo. With 14000 to 18000 islands, there is a very strong possibility of that being true. The question of black waters and blacker waters(all having the same genus and species) will surely muck up the old court system and get thrown out. And as new island monitors are popping up faster then Daisys, there is good reason to believe they are indo. But who knows? and that is the point. Cheers

Boy asking simple questions is much funner than the tough ones!
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"Life without risk is to merely exist."

The only pure melanistic (black) race of Varanus salvator is Varanus salvator komaini (Nuthphand 1987), which is only found in La-Ngu District and some nearby islands off shore from it which also belong La-Ngu District in Satun Province, Thailand. Unless the ones available are the progeny of the only ones ever bred in captivity quite recently in Costa Rica by Quetzal Dwyer and Monica Perez, they have been smuggled out of Thailand, which prohibits the export of monitor lizards.

Interestingly, this was the only additional post needed on this thread and told the one asking the question everything that he needed to know and it was indeed a very simple answer, but of course, you could not leave it alone, could you, FR? Read the last sentence very carefully then maybe again, since you have a problem with comprehension, read it again one more time afterwards, just to make sure.

Remember, they said they were from a new locality. Sir, what makes your word better then theirs?????? By law, your word(opinion) cannot outweight theirs. If you have your suspisions, then prove them. Until you prove them, your just another whiner, not knowing what hes talking about.

Their ‘source’ came from one of the world’s most notorious animal smugglers, who has a big interest in not divulging their true location and surely an interest in not serving another long prison term in the US. The common name used for them was the one that came from its original description; Coincidence? Hardly! For someone to imply that they came from an area over 700km from their home range over here is like trying to convince someone that black and white banded king snakes occur naturally along the Pacific Coast of San Diego over there (they just don’t occur there naturally and there is far less than 700km separating their ranges). Of course, you could suggest that they were on holiday and were then captured. By the way, Indonesia is not what the source was quoted as saying and I have been in the area where they have claimed to be from.

At this point, I consider you academic, that is, you talk, without doing. Thats all I can tell from your posts, you whine and whine, but no action. Well sir, heres a chance to prove me wrong, DO SOMETHING. Do it where its important, and that is not here.

What is it, exactly, that makes you think that I am not doing something about it? I am definitely not wasting too much of my time on this forum doing something about it. Academic? No, I can not say this is a point of me being academic; however, you talking about a species you know so little about from a part of the world that you have never been to is not even academic on your part- it is just plain ignorant (lacking knowledge, information or awareness about something in particular).

From what has been apparent over the couple years that I have read this forum, is that you always focus on anything you can get away with and how to get away with it, rather than what the law states and its intent, but then again, you might not have had too many monitors if someone did not play in the gray, seeing that so many are endemic to another country that prohibits export. Who is truly doing a great disservice to this forum? Someone who tells them what is in black and white or someone who explains how much gray there is, how to possibly get away with something and will let them take the fall?

Sighthunter has already written that they are coming from Costa Rica. I know you have short-term selective memory, so please read the top paragraph, yet again to refresh it (I even highlighted for you).

This thread is shows clearly why so many people choose not to post on this forum anymore. Cheers

I don't see the point of what your saying. All this Sighthunter guy wants to do is buy a couple lizards and your making it look like he's going to implicated in some international wildlife smuggling ring. It's preposterous . I could give long and detailed break down of the situation, but why ? The bottom line is even if everything you say is true it's a done deal and it's to late to do anything about it now. No body here is giving out any reptile smuggling 101 lessons or advocating any illegal activity only stating the realities. Why rain on this guys parade ? Ernie Eison

westwoodreptiles.com

>>I don't see the point of what your saying. All this Sighthunter guy wants to do is buy a couple lizards and your making it look like he's going to implicated in some international wildlife smuggling ring. It's preposterous . I could give long and detailed break down of the situation, but why ? The bottom line is even if everything you say is true it's a done deal and it's to late to do anything about it now. No body here is giving out any reptile smuggling 101 lessons or advocating any illegal activity only stating the realities. Why rain on this guys parade ? Ernie Eison
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>>westwoodreptiles.com

If you read the post very, very carefully, along with the earlier posts, you will see that the ones that Sighthunter is looking to get are the only 'legitimate' ones.

Here it is again: "Unless the ones available are the progeny of the ones ever bred quite recently in Costa Rica by Quetzal Dwyer and Monica Perez, they have been smuggled..."

Sighthunter said they are coming from there, meaning: they are not smuggled. As for others that have entered the US before ...

I think you lost your mind, If you could read and comprehend, I said, no matter where they came from, because the are going to be imported, they will be going throught the system. And that means, FWS will either let them in, or not. If they are legal, then they will come in, if not, they will not. Then Sighthunter would have to get some from in country. As they are legal here. As in, its not up to you, or what you think(opinion), Or any goofball conspericy you think. What your missing is, THEY ARE LEGAL HERE. THIS IS NOT THAILAND.

I said, if you actually know who the poacher is, THEN STOP HIM. Or is that a big assumption? After the monitors are taken out of Thailand, its all dog stuff your stepping in. CATCH them in the act, that is meaningful. After that, your just mouthing off, most likely because you do not know what else to do.

Also as indicated, that if you had a brain(or used the one you have) or it the thai government had a brain(same as you), then you would promote the captive reproduction of all animals that are taken out of that country, legally our otherwise. As I mentioned, there is no high dollar market for a black water monitor. Let me see, its neat because its different, once its in abundance, its just an mean black water monitor, one lacking color. That is the reality. It will not take a huge number of breedings to fill what market there is. Then no one will have any incentive to poach them. At the very least, it will have eliminated the need to poach them for our countries keepers. Better then nothing.

In reality, my opinion is, there is no incentive to poach them now, as it took forever to sell the first group. If it was a profitable venture, they would have kept doing it. What happens for hide or meat, or habitat distruction, is another conversation and is not this CONTEXT.

This context is simply Sighthunter hoping to get some black waters and setting up 100000 sq feet of potential facility to keep them. Consider if he gets it right, that much space will allow him to fill the needs of the entire world. Plus being those animals are TOTALLY LEGAL here, there is nothing you should be babbling about. YOU SHOULD BE HELPING HIM, but you do not know how to do that do you? Try helping sometime and not ALWAYS whinning. It seems thats all you do. This is a forum for the breeding of monitors, which is why Sighthunter is here. Can't you help in that. After all, your a huge brain about waters. You must have bred lots of them. And if you haven't, why are you here?

This reminds me of a bank robbery, Its the robber that breaks the law. He is the one prosecuted. They don't burn the money after he is caught, do they? (a dumb analogy, like your dumb one)

Common sense indicateds, catch the poachers, and then do the most possible with the monitors that got poached. They are NOT going to be put back in nature, ARE THEY?

In an odd sense, us breeders have a much bigger responsibility to keep those monitors in exsistance, so no more need to be poached. The reality is, if there is a need, they will be poached and all the laws and whining will not stop it.

What happens now is, if FWS stops them, they will kill them. WHAT A WASTE. Then no good will come from a bad event. Is that what your after?

But I do not think you have any ability to think past your skirt(the little ring around you, about arms lenght)

If you knew me, and you clearly don't, I do not like removing animals from nature, legal or otherwise.(any animals) I hinder that in anyway I can. But IF we are going to remove them. Then we are REPONSIBLE to get the very most out of those removed from nature. As each day passes, that responsibility grows larger.

So get a brain and help with the situation, not hinder it.

For the simple minded, the above means, catch the poacher and help in anyway you can to not have those monitors poached become a waste. You see, its bad to poach them, but its also bad to let them go to waste. A wasted life is not to be promoted, even a monitors life. Cheers

" If you read the post very, very carefully, along with the earlier posts, you will see that the ones that Sighthunter is looking to get are the only 'legitimate' ones. " MrCota

Legitimate? They are only legitimate in the same way all of these animals are. The paperwork backs them up and that's what counts .

If you read carefully along with the earlier post you will see that according to your opinion the breeders Quetzal purchased were smuggled animals. So assuming your right , selling the offspring from these animals would not be anymore legitimate then selling the adults. My question is what is your real issue with the situation ? Ernie Eison

westwoodreptiles.com

Until proven differently, I back you 100%.

There are indeed "issues" and I believe they have nothing to do with monitors. Instead, they are common human issues.

The issues are based on, some do, and some talk about doing, and that the some, have to lash out because they cannot figure out the how to.

I always mention, this is a forum for the keeping and breeding of varanids. It does include conservation. So thats fine too. But I fail to see how keeping and conservation, can be on the same page. Breeding can be part of conservation, in either a direct way(not being done) or in an indirect way, by the simple filling of cages. You know, so that wild animals do not need to be placed in cages.

I was at the begining of colubrid breeding, just EXACTly like I am with monitors. Now days, 99% of caged colubrids are truely CH. verses when I started with colubrids. At that time, 99% were wild caught.

When I started with monitors, 99% of caged monitors in this country were wild caught, now, maybe 90% are wild caught. So its helping, however slowly.

This is what bothers me about MRCOTAS posts. Here we have a person, who is, silly, crazy, wacked in the noggin, enough to work with Salvators, he is willing to use a huge amount of space(which is key with larger monitors) and MRCOTA is doing what??????? got me? I think we all should promote Sighthunter as much as we can, or until he comes back to his senses. hahahahahahahahahaha

If you all remember, I informed Sighthunter about the costs of food and electricity, and that did not stop him. Go Sighthunter!

Particularly, when what hes doing or going to attempt to do IS LEGAL. Cheers

But not wanting to blame some poor starving guy who catches them, and smuggles them to another country to feed his wife, but to blame the guy who creates the demand by wanting to buy yhem as pets here.
What I am saying is that maybe he is trying to get across the point that if we didnt have a demand for those illegally smuggled animals, those poor starving Thais wouldnt capture them for the pet trade. The problem is that they would sell them to the skin trade (thats where most Komaine waters that are smuggled out go). I have a link somewhere (or did until my last computer crash) that sold komain water skins for about $35 each here in the US, these were big adult skins.
So regardless of the fact whether a few Americans buy them as pets or not, they are still caught and sold by the loads for the much more destructive skin trade. Thai law does nothing to stop that, or are they coming from elsewhere, who knows.
The same for anyone who wants to protest a few animals being sold to the pet trade (any monitor species almost), the skin trade sells them for far less in huge amounts that the pet trade will never touch.
I read somewhere that the komodo was useless to the skin trade long before protections because of how thick and boney the skins are, therefore the poachers ignored them. If the species wasnt so well protected by nature we may not have had any today.
Water monitor skin (and almost all Asian species) is thin, durable, smooth, and perfect for leather, therefore its a good marketable item.

Hi, I think I mentioned that in my own way. If someone is poaching them. And they claimed to know who, THEN CATCH the poacher. Once they are out of country, and we get them as live animals. Its really our responsibility to do the best we can with them(as they are legal here) I think I beat that subject until is was a bloody pulp.

Catch the poachers before they take more. And it does not matter where they are going, pet trade or hides or soup. Catch the poachers.

I also said in my mean rude way, once out of country, breed them and fill the market(whatever market there is) with captive hatched. That would not be a problem for the pet trade, but I do not know what market there is for hides or meat. I really do not want to know. I would rather think folks would not do that. I know, I am being delusional.

The thing from the very start was wrong. None of us want them poached, do we???? does anyone here want that???? Nor do we want the government to confiscate and kill them. To me, that is super stupid and complete non sense.

Coupled with, in this case, we have someone with facilities, money(he better have) rodents and time. What better place to put them. And this person is not so egotistical that hes afraid to ask for help. Even from me(mr meanie pants)

So yes, the WHOLE NINE YARDS smelled of dead fish. Cheers

The governments of those countries not wanting their wildlife to leave its borders can place unreal high penalties for capturing (for food, skins, or pet trade even domestically), and smuggling these animals. They can stick to their guns, and enforce the law, not allow the poor starving native to get away with it, shoot him on the spot as well those associated with him when hes caught, then the trade stops. Heck the smugglers would be all alone being snitched out by all of their scared buddies at that point. After all a few bucks for a lizard isnt worth your life and those around you.
Problem solved.

I have noticed when looking at video of outdoor markets in 3rd world countries (and seeing a few myself). Those markets are all packed full of rare, and quickly disappearing species, every day, alive and or dead, for sale to anyone who wants them. The authorities dont care, they are walking around sampling the smorgasbord themselves.
So I figure if you combined in a country such as Thailand all outdoor markets, all petstores, and restraunts, combined with the instances of locals eating rare species in their home countries you would see thousands per day being killed or taken from the wild.
In countries outside their borders, you may see a handful every 6 months of these species, so what does it really matter when you see 20 black waters in the last 5 years available, nothing. It doesnt accomplish saving or even helping to save the species, the country that has them as wildlife needs to save them within its borders.

The way I see it is simple. At the end of the day it is just a water monitor it doesn't matter whether it be black, brown or what ever colour for that matter as Frank pointed out there are thousands already in the market place. I don't see why you should have an issue MrCota after all the animal is captivebred.
I want to say I did detect an element of insinuation in your post but I will give you the benfit of the doubt.
As I see it the problem is a local one for the Thai goverment to sought out, if they are being smuggled then that is where the law is being broken. Sighthunter is doing everything above board as it should be.

Good luck Sighthunter I wish you all the best.

I am still confused about how these monitors From Costa Rica are "legal" according to mrcota but the monitors from Glades were "smuggled animals" but the animals the people in Costa Rica have came from Glades. I am confused... Or is this something like if(hypothetically of course ..,I am NOT a drug dealer) I was a drug dealer and the money I made from selling drugs is Illegal in U.S. but if I put in a bank in Panama and take it back out it is legal? Didn't we put Noriega in jail for this???I agree with Frank on this one btw I just find mrcota's logic kind of confusing. I saw those monitors at the fire show and had I had the funds at the time I would have bought them myself. As far as I am concerned they were here in the U.S. and I could care less where they came from aside from personal interest. Like Sighthunter I too am sick and the head and probably need help haha.

About all thats left for MRCOTA to do is do his homework. If he had read that paper on the captive breedings(it appears he has), he would have understood that the adults are from indo(and legal). After all, he is a believer of published works. All he has to do is check it out. Thats why a paper is published, to provide information to CHECK. And this paper provided the LOCALITY.

As he considers himself an expert on water monitors, then he should have no problem.

In fact, If I were a fan of water monitors(that complex) and I lived in Thailand, I would go check it out. I fully understand one thing, that would be far more fun then sitting here and ranting on and on. But then, that would be actually doing something instead of talking the talk, I would be walking the walk.

Also, it appears, MCOTA is fully wound up by time he posts, he does not start with questions that are a concern of his. He comes in firing from both hips(an old west term). It appears he gets all fired up on other forums. Where others are prompting him to TAKE ACTION. I wonder if he starts to feel like a puppet.

I do forgive MCOTA as when that happens, you do not fully understand what your approach is, as its actually other folks as well(a group approach). That makes is easy to get confused.

With me, I offer information from actual experience, so its more of a report then an opinion. And its surely not a group effort. I can say stuff in a dumb way, but its still taken as a report and from something real. What I have to learn and I am always learning better ways to explain what I see. I see no reason to dwell on old theories, others stories, or others second hand experiences. All of us can do that. And from sun up to sun down. Whats of need is actual experience. Which is what is upsetting about that poster, he lives in Thailand, but does not offer actual experience. He just rants and raves on what he does not understand. My wish is, why not post about what he does understand thru positive results(real experience). Cheers

They need vigilant enforcers to enforce them, if not they are not worth the time to write them.
What this means is that simply smuggling animals from any third world country of any species to another requires a simple bribe of a very little money, drugs, weapons, ammo, food, etc. I have no doubt that the authorities profit well in all far east countries by writing up "legit" papers to export "CBB animals" to the pet trade and to turn their heads and allow illegal animals to be taken across borders then be exported as another locality.
I used to go to reptile shows regularly, its been a long time since Ive bothered to. I used to see Indian star tortoise, komaine water monitors, and many others regularly for sale. Ive also seen the same waters just sold as Asian waters, black waters, etc etc. Of course most all of those dealers will tell you they are CBB, most will lie an entire story to every customer to sell them as CBB.
The authorities walk around and look at the animals all day, they are only worried at that point about native species for sale, and in some cases they are not very good at spotting those either.
Its a shame that the animals may be illegal, but the point is that they are legal once they get to the next country, or to a country that just doesnt care. Thailand may care but most of her neighbors could give a flying "flop" about illegally smuggled animals, heck most of the neighboring countries allow all kinds of bad activities.

I look at the way a third world country operates and it is pretty strait forward, give me the money and I will give you the paperwork, pretty simple. I then look at the Large Chemical companies and other large industries here in the US leading our politicians and learning institutions around by the nose.

No here in the States we do not accept bribes we structure them into our way of doing business. Here in Kansas I have the option of paying my speeding ticket or I can pay double and it is erased from my record.

It is all a matter of perspective, I look at it like a board game. You have the United States on one side and the rest of the world on the other side. You roll the dice and land on the go to jail space, who made this stinking game anyway, we did. How can you play the game when the maker of the game changes the rules as you go!

We the Tax payers are supposed to have the voice (our interests) we pay (our taxes) and the law is supposed to protect what we work for. Do you really think it works that way? I have watched law after law restricting my ability to own reptiles State by State, thanks to our broken system I can no longer road cruse herps in Texas. The reality is one person took away that right and the activity had ZERO impact and ZERO risk to the public. It was not the masses that made that law only one man.

So the next time you apply for a permit roll the dice because there are no rules only someone in a high place sitting on the other side of the board just waiting to change the rules or make up some new ones before the ink is dry.
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"Life without risk is to merely exist."

Here is all the information I have so far.
Black Monitor

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"Life without risk is to merely exist."

Great looking Varanids!
The hatchlings are SAWEET!!!!!!!!!!
Good luck, I hope you get them and have sucsess breeding them!
Mike

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Mike's Monitors!

Ok, I hope I get first picks from the babies you produce in the future! I know you will suceede because I know you have the drive and the time to put into these beasts. You have a wide range of talents and I'm sure you will suceed on this project!
Best of luck!
Barry

P.S. Ok, did I brown nose you enuf to get first picks?

Barry, I will pay you to make me look good on line like that. After reading that I was able to skip a weeks worth of medication!
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"Life without risk is to merely exist."

Good !!! say NO to Prozak!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

OK
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"Life without risk is to merely exist."