Reptile & Amphibian Forums

hey i just gave my beardie a bath today and he was basically just sitting there in one spot then he closed his eyes..i heard people saying their beardies loved to swim so i thought i'd fill the sink up more to see if he would swim,but when i put him back in i think he got alittle scarred and tried to climb out of the sink..he also took a crazy poop when he started swimming to the side of the sink to climb out because he was scarred i think..the water would of been above his head at this point if he would of stood on the bottem of the sink but normal baths are about mid thigh level in his back legs of course..what would be a good thing to bath him in??whats a better way to try to see if he'll swim??do you think he might of just been scarred since it was his first time??hope someone can help..also,whats the best way to keep his cage smelling more fresh??i clean out his poop everyday as soon as i see it..i use sand so would smells be left in the sand after i remove his poop??i use the calcium sand,so don't know if that has anything to do with it..thanks for helping..
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Jonny Blaze
1.0 Nosy Be Panther
1 Bearded Dragon--sex not determined yet
0.1 Yorkshire terrier Brandy,10 years old
1.0 Golden lab-Dusty R.I.P May 16,2007,14.5 years old
1.0 Black lab "wiggler",2 years old
s136.photobucket.com/albums/q173/jonnyblaze_04/?sc=3

Water temp. is important. 85 is ideal. Too hot and they will go crazy trying to get out. I use my kitchen sink. They say that a kitchen sink has the most bacteria of anywhere in your house so I disinfect it first with Clorox Cleanup (contains bleach) and then rinse really well. I fill it to the first knuckle for babies and about my 2nd knuckle for adults. They can always stand and are never forced to swim. Some dragons love a bath some do not. All seem to get to be at least OK with it after a while. Keep in mind bathing is unlikely a natural behavior in the wild. They can swim in water they can stand in just like we can swim in 3' of water so don't force them with deep water. They often poop in the bath. This is normal.

I'd pitch the calci-sand just because it's an impaction risk. I use childrens play sand from Toys R Us. Wood can absorb moisture from dragon poop and may retain smell. I slate tile basking areas and sand substrate for my adults and don't have a problem with odor.

It would help if when posting you mentioned your dragons age and size. (length/weight)

Excuse my ignorance, but what is impaction?
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1.0 Pied
0.1 Het Pied
1.0 Albino
0.1 Het Albino
2.0 Pastels
0.1 Spider
1.1 Yellow Bellies
0.7 Normals
0.0.1 Bearded Dragon

...that the animal is "clogged" up and can't poop. I've never heard of calcisand doing that, I'd like to hear more from him about it.

I was under the impression that the extra calcium ingested from the sand was good for them.

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Holly

0.1 Lavender California Kingsnake (Lizzie Borden)
1.0 Bearded Dragon (Charley Manson)
1.0 Orange Marmalade Cat (Oliver)
1.0 Egyptian Arabian (Bagan)

2.0 Toddlers (Justice & Trevor)

Impaction means blockage of the intestines. Severe impaction will cause the death of an animal.

Calcium based sands can't not be digested by bearded dragons, at least not fast enough before they are passed through the body. It has a high risk to cause blockage in the bowels of bearded dragons. Some dragons can live on it for their entire lives and not have a single issue, others will be lucky to survive a month. But on average, compared to many other substrates, calci sand has a higher risk.

The calci-sand is too coarse to break down in the digestion for it to be used by the dragon as a calcium source. In fact, if your dragon is not getting sufficient calcium in their diet, being housed on calci-sand can cause your dragon to eat more of it as he tries to meet his body's need for calcium. The more of this stuff that gets into the dragon, the greater increase of blockage. Too much calcium based sands can actually weaken their stomach acids, causing issues with digestion. It can also clump up and be even more at risk to cause impaction.

Washed children's play sand has a lesser risk to cause impaction. Its not 100% safe, but much saver when compared to calcium based sands. Personally, I find it can retain odors and bacterial just as much as calcium sand if not more. Dirty particles fall through strainers, or soak down into deep layers, before the droppings are scooped out. Bearded dragons can also scatter and bury soiled sand before it can be removed. This leaves bacteria in the sand, often in a wet situation, which can lead to odors and germs.

Personally, when using washed play sand I think it is best to either only have it in one section of the cage, like a sandbox, so they can play in it, which dragons seem to enjoy doing. Or, only have a relatively thin layer, no deeper than an inch. Change twice a month or at least once a month. More often if you have more than one dragon in the cage.

Now back to bathing.

Only fill the sink or tub with about half and inch to an inch or so so the water doesn't get past the dragon's armpits. Always have something in the water for them to rest on, be it a rock, rolled up towel or your hand. I also recommend using a tub, either a rubber maid container etc. This protects your health as well as the bearded dragon. A tube can also be placed on the floor, so if your dragon does get out, it won't fall off a counter or injure itself running about your kitchen or counter. Never leave a soaking dragon alone either.
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PHLdyPayne

B22 (another frequent poster) once said it best when he said there are sand lovers and sand haters.

Some will disagree but the bottom line is that impaction is caused by bad husbandy. Period. Some substrates can increase the risk of impaction by enticing the dragon to consume them. Calcium sand and crushed walnut shells are a couple of them.

I once saw a Nature show where elephants went to a watering hole and put their trunks into the water and blew away the top silt layer so the could eat the dirt below. It was stated that they do this because it contains a mineral that was lacking in their diet.

An underfed or undernurished dragon will do whatever it feels it must to survive even at the risk of impaction or worse. It's like a stranded person drinking sea water to relieve their thirst short term while causing much more suffering long term.

Now the sand debate.

LdyPayne and others uses plastic table cloths and other non absorbant substrates. They put paper towels under it to absorb any liquids that pass though holes that the dragons puncture with their nails. It seems to me that liquids can pass through the holes and soak into the paper towels below. With the plastic tables cloth above it will take a very long time for the paper towels below to dry out breeding bacteria. Bacteria's best freind is moisture.

The other problem with non absorbant substrates is that the dragon will get into it's own poop. In the wild it was mentioned that dragons don't come into contact with thier waste (not very often at least) Any keeper (including myself) using tablecloths, shelfliner, etc. has come home to find that their dragon has spread poop all over thier cage and themselves. The cleanup of this can be very time consuming and certainly will leave an enclosure that is far from bacteria free since you would have to disinfect all the cage furniture, the cage and wash the dragon.

Sand is the best solution out there. It does not harbor odors as some claim. It should be at a depth that moisture will not pass through it. (I use 2" Soil should be removed daily and it should be changed completely every 60 to 90 days or so.

I have 14 dragons. My dragons over 12" live on sand. (all but 1) It is the closest substrate to their natural environment that is readily available. I leave for work at 8 am and return at 6 pm. Cleaning up after all my dragons on sand takes about 10 minutes including cleaning poop from basking tiles in some cases. Cleaning one enclosure with a dragon on shelf liner that has spread it around takes 10+ minues. I prefer to spend my limited time interacting with my dragons rather than cleaning up after them.

I have never had any issues at all with any of my dragons. No mites, parasites, eye infections, respiratory infections, impactions or any other condition that some relate to housing on sand.

I really see no pros with substrates beside sand. Sorry I guess that makes me a sand lover. lol.

Regarding sand, I read on some forum (I forget which one) a post by a breeder stating they were switching to sand for - I believe - all their beardies, including babies, because of not only the above mentioned reasons, but also because it strengthens the baby beardies legs. Anybody else heard of anything like this?

I've never heard of it but it makes sense. It takes a lot more effort to walk on soft sand than on a hard surface. I also know breeders that use and have used sand even for babies. I am just very conservative and wait until they are 12", by that time the crickets are large enough that they don't get a mouth full of sand when they catch one.

All of my adult enclosures have cricket corrals. It is an area 1' wide by 2' long on my small enclosures or 2.5' long on my longer enclosures. It has a 3/4" x 2.5" board on it's edge as a border covered with aluminum tape that the crickets cannot climb. It has shelf liner as a substrate. I place all the live food in it. Crickets and roaches cannot climb out and superworms cannot burrow down in it.