Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hello all!
I'm cycling my ball pythons since 40 day and now i reached the temperatures of 28 degrees celsious in the day and 22 C during the day. That condition is reached since 19 days. Both my 1100 gramer early '06 spider male and my 3 normal females went off feed and started to cruise theyr cages like mad, expecially the male. So i decided, 6 days ago to start introducing the male. I introduced it to a 1700 grams, 5 years old female at night and i watched but nothing... they were cruising the cage and moving like mad but no sign of interest. I kept the male there for 3 days but i never saw any interest. After that i put it back in it's cage for 2 days and last night i put it with a 2000 grams female but it's the same.... what you think that can be? Must i wait more before introducing? How many time are you waiting before see some male's reactions? He's totally uninterested...I'm misting animals a bit every evening and i have 8/16 light/dark. The male is huge compared to the age but i fed it only 1 rat every 10-15 days!
Thank you for any advice!
Flavio

...

Stick the male in with her and dont bother them, except to check if they are mating for a week. You have clear tubs so you shouldnt need to even open the tub to see. If you do open the tub, only slide it out a bit. Keep the room darker than normal. Once the are together for a bit they should lock up. If you see them locked up, leave them alone until they are done. THis may take a half a day or more. Once they lock up, I give the male 3-4 days rest, then I place him w/another female. Continue placing the male with all the famales you want him to breed, until, either they ovulate, or when you raise temps back up in February or so.

Another thing I have tried and it seemed to work, is that if you have a female in shed, put him in with her right afterwards. I believe the Barker book says the female gives off pheromones and this is enhanced right after she sheds (I hope the Barkers said this....someone did).

If your male continues now to be interested, you can try sticking him in with another male that is his size or a little smaller. Do not leave them unattended, but they should battle. This makes the male excited and stimulates his wanting to breed. They do this in the wild, battlling to get the right to mate. They wont hurt each other (mine never bite...yet), they just try to get their head uo over the other male and push him down. Its pretty cool to watch. They knock around pretty good, turning over water dishes and hides, its wild (literally).

I really like your male spider, nice high white sides..

Good luck and keep us postedn w/the results.

~Alan

>>>>If your male continues now to be interested, you

I meant if your male continues NOT to be interested, you....

Thank you! Yes i have a 1900 grams female that is in shed right now. When she will shed i will replace this one with the freshli shed one... good idea. For now i'm not turning on the artificial light even during the day.. there is the natural light coming from the window. I was checking them now and they are coiled together sleeping. I will leave them together watching them time by time as you said but i do not have another male that reched breeding size right now so i cannot try the battle. I can buy a normal adult and try but i don't want too much because i fave fear of viruses or parasites in new animals (i'm doing quarantene for at least 3 months). I hoper he will work.

Thank you for the comment no my spider too

Flavio

Actually what the Barkers said in their book was to put the male in with the female WHILE she is in shed. Their theory on this is that the female is much more submissive. I tried this and it worked great for me. Of course the male bred her even when she wasn't in a shed cycle so who knows!
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Ryan Sherman
Scottsdale, Arizona

I have to find that book and re-read it. I thought there was something going on with the feromones she gives off as well? Maybe not, I am going to try and locate this book tonight.

Thanks.

Try introducing the females into the males cage!

Yes that does make a difference. I was doing at first the male into the females and nothing, gave them a few days put the female into the males and waa laaa..

I am also putting the females into the males cage and they are going at it like teenagers. LOL

..

I put my male spider in with one of my girls early this morning. I checked them a couple of hours later and they were locked up.
She is not in shed.
My opinion is that it really don't matter. If they're going to do it, they wont care where they are.

Dave

Dave,

I dont think they have to be in shed to mate. I remeber reading somewhere that if the female has recently shed, the male finds her more alluring or whatever, because she gives off sexual feromones I believe? If you have a male that doest hesitate and a receptive female it doesnt make a difference, however, if this guy has a male thats a little shy he may want to increase the males drive a bit if possible.

I have had a male before that was hesitant, and I have put him in with another male about his size and they battled it out pretty good for a half hour or so. I then put him w/the female and he was alot more assertive in mating with her. I did this a couple years ago and it worked really well. I would definately reccomend inciting your males to breed with a little healthy combat if required. The female in shed thing is another thing that he may want to try...it cant hurt??

Alan

My male seems really not interested not only hesitating. He is sleeping near her or cruising the cage just as you will put 2 females together. There is no sign of any change in the behaviour of the male compared with when it was alone. That's strange. I've bred jcp and some kindo of interest was always present.. even in reluctant males. I wanted to ask you if that happens to you too sometimes or it is normal that they have to show interest almost immediatly? I'ts more than one day that he's with females and nothing... i'm watching it a lot of time and here at home there is almost everytime someone that is taking a short look. How many time have i to wait for to worry about the male?
Thank you again

Flavio

Flavio,

Are you sure the person who sold you this snake didnt give you a female instead of a male? It could have been an accident, or with co-doms you have to be careful because the males are more desirable as juvies cause they can breed sooner...

I am no expert with this, I am only trying to give you honest advise based on my experiences and steer you in the right direction. To be honest with you, the males I have had that have been gun-shy are usually young ones. I had a 350gram male breed last year and produce, but I only put him with one female and he was no love machine, let me tell you. A 900 gram male should be all over the female...you would think?

I would double check using a probe that you do indeed have a male before you go crazy with this. At this point, if I were you, I would almost rather have the 900 gram female? He/she must be a really good eater and you could get another male for $300 or so? A little more than this and you can get one that is breedable this year.

Alan

I meant 1100gram spider

>>Flavio,
>>
>>Are you sure the person who sold you this snake didnt give you a female instead of a male? It could have been an accident, or with co-doms you have to be careful because the males are more desirable as juvies cause they can breed sooner...
>>
>>I am no expert with this, I am only trying to give you honest advise based on my experiences and steer you in the right direction. To be honest with you, the males I have had that have been gun-shy are usually young ones. I had a 350gram male breed last year and produce, but I only put him with one female and he was no love machine, let me tell you. A 900 gram male should be all over the female...you would think?
>>
>>I would double check using a probe that you do indeed have a male before you go crazy with this. At this point, if I were you, I would almost rather have the 900 gram female? He/she must be a really good eater and you could get another male for $300 or so? A little more than this and you can get one that is breedable this year.
>>
>>Alan

Been reading through here,and youv'e got a good point..maybe it is a girl/?... If you think so,just pop him/her to see if there were any sperm plugs or not...Stranger things have happened.

oh and the in shed thing has(kind of)worked for me.
I think this one was a bit light weight though.As she didn't breed again that season,or lay eggs....So it does appear that being in shed got her breeding,even though she wasn't actually up for it.

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Charles Glaspie

I was thinking the same thing. I hope that it is just the male is not yet interested, but I would check just to be sure.

Ehhhhh you're right thinking so.... buttt....... it's a male, for sure. When i bought it from a very know breeder here, he popped it when i came there to buy and two nice hemiphenes came out... there is no doubt, i would think the same as you othervise. I really can't understand why he's so shy.

Now he's exploring the cage and i took a picture with the female in shed as i put her with him and i will leave them alone until some days after she will shed.

And the females are females, two layed eggs by a friend last year, they bred with a normal male.

The second pic is of my 06 lemon pastel female. She is 740 grams and not a super eater but... i love her! She just shed and i wanted to show

Flavio

.

Flavio,

Do you have a hide in the cage? Looking at the pictures again, the cage looks really large? Maybe you want to cover the front up a bit with some cloth to make them more secure? You may want to switch them to a smaller encloser if you have one available?

Another thing, maybe its me, but when it comes to money I have a hard time trusting very many people. Big "well known" breeder or not, can you per 1000 percent certain they didnt pull the old switch for a female on you?

Also, sometimes(to me anyway)the female's private area looks sort of like the males when the hemipeines are not fully extended? I am not very good a popping and I very seldom do it for fear of injuring the animal. I have become alot more proficient at probing (even very small snakes) and I feel it is more accurate? Are you very familar with popping and can you be certain what you saw was indeed a male? It happens, and at 1100grams she would be a really nice catch now... You should find someone that can probe this snake for you and double check. I am in Southern Connecticut and I would be happy to probe out your collection for you and to show you how its done. Probing, at least for me, is the definitive and most reliable method to sex Ball Pythons and is far superior to popping, especially when the snakes are not babies. You dont live near Connecticut do you?

Anyway, to start with you should maybe try and make the encloser feel more secure with a nice hide on the warm end and maybe even one on the cold end. I would cover ALL the glass with a sheet or towel and keep the room darkened.

Alan

Anybody else got any ideas that might help Flavio out?

>>Flavio,
>>
>>Do you have a hide in the cage? Looking at the pictures again, the cage looks really large? Maybe you want to cover the front up a bit with some cloth to make them more secure? You may want to switch them to a smaller encloser if you have one available?
>>
>>Another thing, maybe its me, but when it comes to money I have a hard time trusting very many people. Big "well known" breeder or not, can you per 1000 percent certain they didnt pull the old switch for a female on you?
>>
>>Also, sometimes(to me anyway)the female's private area looks sort of like the males when the hemipeines are not fully extended? I am not very good a popping and I very seldom do it for fear of injuring the animal. I have become alot more proficient at probing (even very small snakes) and I feel it is more accurate? Are you very familar with popping and can you be certain what you saw was indeed a male? It happens, and at 1100grams she would be a really nice catch now... You should find someone that can probe this snake for you and double check. I am in Southern Connecticut and I would be happy to probe out your collection for you and to show you how its done. Probing, at least for me, is the definitive and most reliable method to sex Ball Pythons and is far superior to popping, especially when the snakes are not babies. You dont live near Connecticut do you?
>>
>>Anyway, to start with you should maybe try and make the encloser feel more secure with a nice hide on the warm end and maybe even one on the cold end. I would cover ALL the glass with a sheet or towel and keep the room darkened.
>>
>>Alan
>>
>>Anybody else got any ideas that might help Flavio out?

Is it just me,or does the normal female look smaller than the spider?
-----
Charles Glaspie

No no it is perspective.... she is near 2000 grams!

Flavio

Hello Alan,
the cage is not too large i think, it is 2,8ft x 1,8ft and 1 ft high, you think better smaller? I don't know, the animals are both near 4ft, the female a bit longer. What you think?
I'm sure it's a male, i probed it and the probe entered more than half of the tail...(about 7-8 subcaudal scales) and one time about 6 months ago he was full of sperm plugs....
I would be very happy to realize it is a female... but...
In any way nothing happened... even now...
if he will not start in some time i'll try to find another male to try... even normal one.

Flavio

Aps! I'm covering the cage with a big towel every evening-night.... since a month! During the day i'm leaving uncovered but with turned off light. I'll try to leave it covered always.

Thank you for the advice again

Flavio

Flav,

By 2,8ft x 1,8ft and 1 ft high you mean 2 Feet 8 Inches right?

If this is correct, then I do not think the cage is too big. However I would put a hide in there on the hot side that is much smaller and dark where she can crawl into and hide. It is like a hole in the ground for the snake. Many people use little wooden boxes, or kitty litter containers turned upside down with a hole cut into it so the snake can crawl in.

Are you usng hides now? From the pics, I dont remember seeing any? Also, when you say the snake is cruising around or crawling around ( I cant remember exactly how you put it), this reminds me of when I just put a snake in a new enclosure and the crawl around and around exploring cause they are a bit excited about the unknown space. After my snakes are established in a enclosure the sometimes crawl around at night, or when they are hungry, but most of the time they a curled up inside their hides. I would reccomend putting a hide in there if you dont already have one.

Also, I wouldnt consider it a lost cause with your spider and put her with a normal male yet. It is only late October and you have alot of time... Also, you can get a pastel male of breeding size for not too much cash. If I were you I would only put her with a normal as a last resort, or if you just want to practice rearing Ball Pythons for next year or when you get the Spider male figured out.

I feel bad for you about this, it really stinks? I would keep trying nonetheless.

Alan

Yes there is an hide box in the other side of the cage, i'll take a pic soon. In all my cages there is always an hide box. Wooden or plastic one. In any way may be it's too early for to breed here. I'm living in Italy and weather changes to winter is a bit later may be.... i contacted other italian breeders who told me that even with proven breeder males, until november might be so.... i was not thinking about that... in any way i'll keep em together until the female will shed then if nothuing will happen i'll separate em again and try again in mid november.
I wanted to say you really thanks for your time and interest and i'll immediatly let you know when something will change.

Flavio