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For Todd, about splendida, from below

FR Oct 24, 2007 10:35 AM

Thats toooo far to go down to, so lets bring it up here, as there is a possibility of more nice pics and such.

Todd, I for some odd reason, do not think of western splendida has having cal king in them. First off, there are no cal kings for over a couple hundred miles to the west. There are arizona kings nearby.

You see, I have seen these western splendida for over forty years in nature. Which surely has allowed me to see a variable phenotype from a common genotype.

That is, a huge range of expressed patterns depending on the year or years. In the exact same area, there are prevailing phenotypes. But this is temporary. Year by year, we see different types, then back, then forth. It makes things a bit dicey to understand.

Theres this road, 20 miles from my house, that has kings. On the northern end, its mostly yuma type patterns, no cal kings. That is, extremely narrow yellow bands. On the southern end, there are Black kings and normal splendida patterns and goofy patterns. Rarely banded kings. But that has occurred. The problem is, there is no zone of intergration. That is, there is no blending area. You can pretty much seperate the two with a knife cut. But because they are kingsnakes, we tend to keep adding human emotions. You know, the absolute. Which is the problem, there is no absolute. Not even with cal kings.

I would rather think of it as, these populations as having a wider genotype and expressed phenotype, then some eastern populations. But they do not blend.

now back to our road, if you travel north then Yuma kings disappear and all of a sudden, theres another type of king, its huge and like a splendida but much bigger and darker, nearly black, in fact the adults are almost black. Then you go farther north to tucson and just west of tucson, then you find cal king types with wider yellow, but you also find a meshmash of all traits, I foundly call them Speedwayensis. A road in town. Once on here a person posted a pic of a king and asked what it was, I said, speedwayensis, and he said, how did you know where I caught it, I caught it on speedway. hahahahahahahaha lucky guess.

As you travel north out of tucson. You can forget all about splendida, its mostly wider banded yuma kings, I just hate to say Cal kings, cause its NOT CALI. Its arizona. If you travel east out of tucson, its mostly splendida, except once I found a perfect banded king right in the middle of perfect splendida. Within 10 miles of New Mexico. Whats up with that. Surely if that occurred in New Mexico, you would not call it a caliariznewmexico king. Or simply a banded king in the wrong place, considering the average phenotype.

It appears those terms are messing with our thinking, Genotype is a wide ranging term(particular with kings, think polymorphism)But those phenotypes, they are really cool as its something that actually gives up headackes.

Oh and that knife cut that seperates Yuma kings and splendida, someone is fooling with us as that line keeps moving forth and back.

The problem is understanding what makes a phenotype. For instance, in southern az, splendida is a grassland king. But our grasslands are few and far between. There are non-grasslands between the grasslands. The reality is, the last grasslands are just to the west of the said road above. Those grasslands(and their selection pressure) are most likely the stablizing factor for keeping splendida in that area.

A way to think of this is, kingsnakes are not continious across ariz. They are in pockets, across ariz. Some of these pockets are in traditional habitats, you know, a splendida in normal splendida turf. But, there are also splendida in pockets where the habitat has changed a bit and is no long traditional, so we see a range of phenotypes that either resemble other known types or not. The truth is, most do not actually resemble cal type kings, but we ignore them as we do not know what to call them.

about your pic, its a kinda dark snake and it appears to have a low band count. Odd for around here. Maybe it was not from around here. Cheers

Replies (14)

Joe Forks Oct 24, 2007 11:33 AM

>>>>It appears those terms are messing with our thinking

The comment. I believe this to be true. I also believe results in certain mtDNA are bias because certain snakes were labeled with pre-conceived notions of identity.

For example. We have a snake we think is alterna from locality XX. We call it alterna. Then we run mtDNA and find out it is closely related to a snake we call thayeri from just beyond the valley. We then extrapolate the data to draw conclusions about thayeri and alterna when all we have is two snakes, one of which might may not have identified correctly in the first place.

Maybe you can see where I'm going with this....

The question,
how do the splendida look from "thayeri" country, I've never seen one.
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http://www.hcu-tx.org

FR Oct 24, 2007 12:42 PM

Now Joe, why didn't you bring that up during the THAYERI debacle. hahahahahahahahahahaha

Ok, just for fun, In thayeri turf, I found a place that had, Pricei, Lepidis morulus, and massaugas(sp) all in the exact same place. It also had thayeri and desert kings, which appeared for all intents and purposes, to be for the grasslands north of sonoita(as in, normal). It also have Mohaves and mex. blacktails. As well as many other local snakes(from here) And cateyed snakes and lyresnakes(tau and others), and dude, I can keep going, on yea, deppi jani.

This also points out, our thoughts on habitat is not so good as well. Wait, there was also ratsnakes, like emoryi, and bairdi(greyheads) Funny thing, one night I found three bairds crossing the road, but they were all females, so the next night I went to find a mate, but weird as this sounds, I found three greenrat snakes. In the exact same spot. Hmmmmmmmm this place is CRAZY I tell you, just crazy, oh did I mention speckled racers and sonoran racers without stripes were there too. Hmmmmmmmm Oh wait, and texas coralsnakes in thayeri habitat, UP HIGH at altitude. And black racers(coluber) and coachwhips. Dude and dudettes the place is messed up. Did I mention softshelled turtles? climbing trees? ok, forget that last part. Softshells yes, climbing trees no.

But Joe, you and I know, cause we have been there, that thayeri turf is a meeting zone of many habitats, did anyone mention milksnakes of bizzare heritage? And do I mean a bunch of different zones and habitats, yes I did.

Oh I get it, thayeri are a combo plate, with too many side dishes. Cheers

Joe Forks Oct 24, 2007 01:34 PM

>> Oh I get it, thayeri are a combo plate, with too many side dishes. Cheers

I'll have the Quesadillas.

I know a spot just like that, probably the same one, it rocks.
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http://www.hcu-tx.org

tricolorbrian Oct 24, 2007 11:49 PM

OK, I admit I know little about Tucson kingsnakes, but I'm learning fast. From what I have seen, Cal Kings (not AZ kings) and splendida can be found within the range of "speedwayensis" in typical pattern morphs, as well as the blended speedway morphs (which I see as intergrades between Cal Kings (not AZ kings) and splendida. That's all I'm going to say about that right now. I'm sure Frank will enlighten me shortly. lol

Patton Oct 25, 2007 04:56 PM

I'm dying to see it! You should have done the Milksnake book first, that's just my personal opinion.
-Phil

tricolorbrian Oct 25, 2007 09:55 PM

Its almost finished. I'm waiting for new enlightenment from FR, a few pics from others, a Quark program, a few chapters to be edited, and I still need to make about 30 range maps.

FR Oct 26, 2007 02:02 AM

Hi Brian, there are a couple of reasons for me not using the term Cal king. The first is, our banded kings, are similar to cal kings, but have a distint different head pattern.

If you look, Az. kings occur over much of western, central and northern az. and Nev. and adjacent areas of eastern Cal and Utah(possibly farther north(I have no experience there)

Cal kings maintain their ornate head pattern well into the central cali deserts. Take a look at this trait and see what you think.

So with this trait in mind and that the vast majority of their range is in Az. I think we need a name for Ariz/cal kings. cheers

Bluerosy Oct 26, 2007 08:51 AM

Is AZ even a state yet?
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"Yeah ya told me, and ya wrote it down too. But how the hell am I supposed to remember!"

tricolorbrian Oct 26, 2007 12:24 PM

NO, it is not a state yet, although many think it is. We are actually an Indian reservation. We hope to have statehood by early 2025. Or, we hope to become a separate country. Whichever comes first. If we become a separate country, YOU will probably be denied a passport and will not be able to visit our casinos.

FR Oct 28, 2007 11:32 PM

Isn't insanity a state? Its the sun man, its the sun, beating down, beating down, beating down. I see water, no thats not water, thats where Brian, you know. Cheers

antelope Oct 24, 2007 02:21 PM

OK, as it was bought in a pet store and was "claimed" to be from Arizona, it looks like I have a problem snake. I was hoping for a verdict of yes it looks like one type of Arizona splendida. That snake looks very cool to me and is getting very large, I was hoping to find an appropriate mate for him someday. Can you post a pic of the banded Arizona splendy when you get time? You seem to be the only one out there that isn't afraid to show a pic of the differing phenotypes! I like this snake so I will keep it for fun. I get the whole pocket distribution thing, the calligasters down here do that on their southern edge.

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Todd Hughes

Tony D Oct 25, 2007 06:03 PM

"Oh and that knife cut that seperates Yuma kings and splendida, someone is fooling with us as that line keeps moving forth and back. "

This might just be me worming about but your last sounds like you could be misinterpreting your observations.

FR Oct 26, 2007 02:27 AM

No offense, but I do not actually think we EVER get it right. Its more about degree of something being right or close. Or even temporarily right is good.

What I think is, if anyone with some experience in this area thinks they can get it 100% right they are highly delusional.

The edge of a species range is not always a hard edge. In areas with no real hard habitat change, it becomes temporary. Some years are more benefitual for one type, other years for another type. Of note, three years ago, the whole blasted area burned up, so what should be expect now.

In this situation, its all about data points. If you go ten years seeing one thing. That is actual data. Then that changes and you see something else. Thats additional data. The question is, do you lump it into one data point, or do you question why it happened. Cheers

Tony D Oct 26, 2007 05:06 AM

At the risk of you disagreeing with me I'm going to agree with what you said.

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