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To FR about Cal Kings

tricolorbrian Oct 24, 2007 11:29 PM

I continued our discussion up here so you would find it easier. I know that sifting thru a mountain of posts can be difficult at your age. lol Yes, we may be describing different morphs with the same name, but I don't think the basic Newport pattern has changed in 40 years. I've seen pickled specimens from the 1940s that look exactly like what we find today. Plus, no one ever took the time to dissect all of the Newport morphs and name them. they just called all of them Newporters. But, you may have found different morphs at localities that no longer exist. That would pose a problem for me to comprehend what you are describing. Also, most aberrant morphs are so difficult to find in the wild that I doubt any of us have seen them all. I'll call you when I get back home. I'd love to see a pic of that nigrita.

Brian Hubbs

Replies (11)

FR Oct 25, 2007 11:52 AM

No offense Brian, but you do not know what happened at the time. Not that your wrong, but you were not around.

In my many years of field work, I have seen Phenotype migration many many many times. It occurs and occurs normally. After all, these are kingsnakes. As habitats change, they HAVE to change with it.

The reality is, coastal cali, WAS A DESERT, then it was irrigated, then watered for many other human needs. In otherwords, its changed, heck, I remember when scissiors crossing was a desert. I went back a couple years ago and there were trees and bushes and all manner of plants, THAT WERE NOT THERE IN THE PAST.

I agree that the normal banded phase has changed very little, but the other morphs are the canary of habitat change. They are the ones with will change first.(in my opinion)

Back to the snakes. Back then, there was always a range of morphs, but we named the most common morph. Not the fewer in number. We simply called them intermediates or abberants. Just like with the San Deigo populations, there are bandeds and stripes and abberants. We never included abberants as stripers.

This is true with newporters, there were bandeds and newporter(stripes) and there was abberants(intermediate between newporters and bandeds) In both populations, abberants were rare. With the exception of a few localities where they were not common, but not hard to find.

Over the years, we saw the range of stripers, extend and retreat. Or appear and disappear. However you want to look at it.

This may be true for newporters as well.

I would think the main difference is, 40 years ago, we have lots and lots and lots of habitat to hunt in. Now you have a few restricted areas or bands of areas.

It is very easy to understand that now these restricted populations are subject to specialization. Or not exposed to what it was exposed to, and that is more then just genes.

The problem is, many if not most of the areas we hunted, are NOT THERE ANY LONGER.

With that in mind, your book is current and you must report what IS CURRENT. But please, its a mistake to discount or not be aware of the past. The past was what is was, the present is too. In the future, folks may not have this to discuss.

I have a field partner thats a masters in herp. I will bring up this subject with him and all he does is give me a look. Frank, you are talking about kingsnakes(polymorphic) throughout their range. Thats it, no more. As color and pattern are a fast changing part of what makes kingsnakes. So to him, to discuss a constantly fast changing color morph of a species is, hmmmmmmm not necessary. Do we discuss the morphs of ground snakes. Dude, they are better then kings in this area.

All in all, its only a morph of a standard color type. But its important to us. Thats what I tell him, then he gives me another look. Cheers

Joe Forks Oct 25, 2007 12:11 PM

>> Over the years, we saw the range of stripers, extend and retreat. Or appear and disappear. However you want to look at it.

I've seen the exact same situation with getula in and around the San Antonio city limits many times over the course of 30 years, except in my case I'm speaking of the entire colonies. I believe these urban Kings to be nomadic.
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http://www.hcu-tx.org

FR Oct 25, 2007 04:31 PM

As you may know, I watched breeding colonies of many kinds of reptiles. Breeding colonies are groups of many pairs, within a very small area. A concentration of reproductive adults.

What I have seen is, these colonies limited limited lifespan.

I have watched Lyresnakes, and pyros locally, also diamondbacks and gilas. All these are longterm with the recognizable individuals.

The colubrids averaged about 8yrs, then disappeared. There would not no recruitment to that congregating and nesting area. With the diamondbacks, they often lasted a dozen years. Again with little recruitment to the same area.

Gilas, are a horse of a different color, they do recruit and their colonies have lasted 30 years and counting. With only one complete change of breeding adults in that lenght of time.

I have also worked both Banded rocks and Willardi for 18 years on the same colonies. With these, we pit tag them, so we are constantly chasing(causing them to move) So its very hard to tell how long they last, but we had breeding individuals over 10 years in the system. The problem is, catching and processing them often chases them from one area to another. If we are diligent and catch them say once a week, they are GONE(gone means, gone, never to be seen again) Add to that, 65% aprox, are GONE after the first encounter.

But to show how stable the population is, It has maintained aprox 50% tagged animals, even after a few years of only tagging two or three times a year. That is, we still find about half on any given day, have already been tagged.

I also watched colonies of Pricei and banded rocks and willards that were not touched EVER. They did maintain a very tight range and indeed returned to the exact inch, year after year to reproduce. These colonies, last aprox 10 t 12 years, then were GONE.
In fact, one area, had banded rocks for 10 years, then willards for ten years, then pricei for ten years. Other areas have two of these or all three of these in one area.

In fact, once(only once) I found four gravid willards three gravid Pricei and one gravid rock rattlesnake, coiled within inches of eachother(hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm must be a reason). I was lucky I guess.

So yes, I argee, at least in some areas, they have a limited lifespan.

In my naive way, I use to call them Slow antelope, that is, those colonies, move around like a herd of anlope, ONLY really really really slow.

And yes, I still have many many many unanswered questions on the how and why. But I have at least seen this much.

And yes, I have found HUGE colonies of Thayeri, as well as other species in that area.

I was walking around there(NL) and I happened upon a whole bunch of coachwhip sheds, all over this little knoll. Maybe forty to fifty sheds, all over, overlapping eachother etc. As I was standing there, I thought to myself. Dude, if a thayeri was here, it would be soooooooooo gone. And as I thought that, I noticed a thayeri coiled up, at the very end of a coachwhip shed. hahahahahahahahahahaha what do I know? I am just a human.

By the way, once my friend and collecting partner Ted, found an area where thayeri had gathered. We decided to count sheds. We found aprox. 200 fresh sheds in one small area. Some were in pieces, so the number could be less, say 150 aprox. So if we are stupid as a stone and cannot count(possible when your all excited) there realistically was over 100 individuals in one area.

I mention the doubt because we were often interrupted by unusually marked sheds. Like some that were striped, like a wide stripe down the top, 1, 2, 3, Was that red or white or tan? 45, 46, or green, 56, 57, 58, dude, its irradesing, 67, 68, hahahahahahahahaha.

By the way, I am not a good snake hunter, as I have no gift to see snakes. Those that know me, call me a hound dog, I sniff out where they live, once you find where they live, the snakes are NOT hard to find(with the exception of tooo hot and or tooo dry). You do not need to be good at seeing snakes. What I look for, is sheds, hatched eggs, etc, these have a fairly long, but not too long lifespan. Once you find that, the rest is EASY and about timing. And no, you do not have to dig to find these things, you just have to look.

Thanks for letting me tell more boring stories. Cheers

Joe Forks Oct 25, 2007 04:47 PM

thanks for taking the time to type them.

slow antelope hahahahaha
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http://www.hcu-tx.org

antelope Oct 25, 2007 11:10 PM

Ditto on the stories, if you don't pass them down, they will be lost and that would be a shame. I hope you put some effort into a book and get it published sometime soon, it would be gold!

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Todd Hughes

tricolorbrian Oct 25, 2007 07:15 PM

Well, I didn't think i said anything to illicit a debate response. I thought I was basically agreeing with you. As for the snakes changing over time, the basic Newport pattern does not seem to change, although no two are exactly alike, but neither are any banded kings. As for aberrant morphs changing, yes that's possible too but all aberrants are a little variable. You never find any that are exactly alike. What i want to know is if we have lost any basic aberrant morphs due to habitat loss. We may have. But no one knows to what extent each morph once existed throughout southern CA, or what all the morphs look like (or looked like in the past). There are a few Newport morphs that seem restricted to L.A. county, while others range into Orange, San Bernardino and Riverside counties. The San Diego patterns (normal and aberrants) seem to be limited to the range of the San Diego striped pattern type (San Diego, southeastern Orange and western Riverside counties). The two pattern types (San Diego and Newport) collide and create intermediates where the ranges meet in Riverside, Orange and San Diego counties. That's all I'm going to say. You'll have to read the book to learn more. heh heh But i don't think were on different pages, just using different language to say the same things.

FR Oct 25, 2007 08:36 PM

Not sure about that debate thing, but we do mostly agree.

What we don't agree on is this. The pictures you showed me that you called Newporters were not exactly what we called newporters.

As with many names, the name newporter is most likely not very good. It was good at the time, but then it just sort of happened. Most of that type were found north of newport. Closer to LAX and eastward.

Its too bad you were not born back then as it would have been absolutely wonderful to have someone "put it together" Maybe even change the names to fit the animals. hahahahahahaha.

I wish I could be of more help, but I was an eastern collector, that is, I always went east from orange county. Hence I moved out here. While I did collect the beaches, at that time, I was mostly collecting things other then snakes. ALthought, when it was slow, I did turn a few boards. The sixties was very good time to be a young male(think the beach movies, beach blanket bingo etc.)

To change the subject a little, in the LA county and eastward areas, thru the brea hills(i lived smack in the middle of them for a while) thru pomoma and riverside, we rarely saw anything but bandeds. In fact, I found hypos fairly often, across the whole area, but abberants were extremely rare. Althought in the Aberhill/Elsinore/temecula areas had plenty of abberants, and starting at Temec/Pala, south, stripers occurred more and more often. I did see stripers north of aberhill, but not when I was young, that came much later.

Anyway, keep up the research, and good work. Cheers

tricolorbrian Oct 25, 2007 09:50 PM

The pics I showed you only included one typical Newport morph (from L.A. county). The other two were Newport aberrants. I classified them as Newport aberrants based on similarities they share with the classic Newport pattern (Newport gene influence). I'm sure the older collectors who found those morphs called them different names. One, the Barred morph, was named for a locality near Hemet where it was fairly common (and still is) so I changed the name to keep the exact locality a secret. I just like to say western Riverside county, instead of naming cities. Some of us still prowl those areas and do not like to see footprints in "our" grass. Please do not mention the old name of the morph if you know it.

FR Oct 26, 2007 01:40 AM

heres were we totally agree, I do not give exact locals, oh, except my house, hahahahahahahahahahaha

So yes, I may not have seen what your calling the main Newporter, show it, so I can rest my mind. hahahahahahaha Thanks

tricolorbrian Oct 26, 2007 12:19 PM

OK, send me an e-mail so I have your e-mail addy and I'll send you pictures. I don't know how to post pics here and don't want to learn. tricolorbrian@hotmail.com

Bluerosy Oct 26, 2007 12:59 PM

Posted by: tricolorbrian at Fri Oct 26 12:19:09 2007 [ Report Abuse ] [ Email Message ]

OK, send me an e-mail so I have your e-mail addy and I'll send you pictures. I don't know how to post pics here and don't want to learn. tricolorbrian@hotmail.com

Good thing because this is the KINGSNAKE FORUM. Nobody wants to see pics of your potatoe bugs Ms. Grammer.


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"Yeah ya told me, and ya wrote it down too. But how the hell am I supposed to remember!"

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