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Sale Of Cornsnakes Banned In Texas?!

jeffb Oct 25, 2007 01:22 PM

According to new Texas Parks And Wildlife rules published on October 19, 2007, the state is set to add Cornsnakes to a list of species "blacklisted" from commercialization in State Of Texas. That means cornsnakes, a snake not native to Texas and perhaps the most popular pet snake in the history of herpetoculture could not be collected, purchased, or sold in the state.

For a the complete text of the rule see
http://www.sos.state.tx.us/texreg/pdf/currview/1019adop.pdf

For a complete list of black listed animals see
http://info.sos.state.tx.us/fids/200704634-2.html

For a complete list of white listed animals see
http://info.sos.state.tx.us/fids/200704634-1.html

Edited on October 25, 2007 at 14:44:12 by jeffb.

Replies (19)

jeffb Oct 25, 2007 01:33 PM

I have requested clarification from the media contact at Texas Parks & Wildlife to find out when this new rule goes into effect.

jeffb Oct 25, 2007 01:50 PM

The correct address for the "white list" is at
http://info.sos.state.tx.us/fids/200704634-1.html

Joe Forks Oct 25, 2007 02:21 PM

someone please tell me how, or WHY Cornsnakes (Elaphe guttata) are black-listed, when the Texas Cornsnake (Elaphe slowinskii) and the Emory Ratsnake (Elaphe emoryi) are white listed?

That has got to be some kind of major screw-up (not that that would be a first).

If you are going to recognize the species designations as the presented, Elaphe guttata isn't even found in Texas, and it is THE most common snake in the pet trade.

What are they smoking?
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http://www.hcu-tx.org

jeffb Oct 25, 2007 02:45 PM

>>What are they smoking?

Well they ARE in Austin...

BRhaco Oct 25, 2007 04:05 PM

a case of nomenclatural confusion. Whomever made up this list at TPW was working off an outdated list from before the taxonomic reevaluation of SE TX Elaphe (Pantherophis). Since this list is meant to include only species actually native to Texas, and Elaphe guttata is not native to Texas, then I don't see how the rule can hold up in this particular case.
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Brad Chambers

The Avalanche has already started-it is too late for the pebbles to vote....

jeffb Oct 25, 2007 08:13 PM

So your proposing that incompetence rather than conspiracy is the issue.

While that may be true, it is my understanding that it's the letter of the law that matters, rather than the intent, and currently based on the letter this document outlaws the sales of Cornsnakes. Whether that was TP&W's intent or not remains to be seen.

I would hope that the people that proposed this rule change would have done the due diligence and gotten the proper approvals through the appropriate channels before submitting the change to the Texas Register for publication. That said an error of this magnitude should have been stopped way before publication.

I sent emails to 3 officials at TP & W today, Matt Wagner, Program Director, Wildlife Diversity, being the only one to reply. His response was "this was a mistake that needs to be corrected". I do not know what his role in this was, nor do I know if/what steps have been taken to correct it.

I received no response at all to my inquiry to Duane A. Schlitter, Ph.D., Program Leader, Nongame and Rare and Endangered Species Program, who according to my records should have a primary role in this.

I also received no response whatsoever from TP & W's News Editor, Aaron Reed, though some of our readers that contacted him today after I did have received multiple responses, none of which answered the question, though one quote forwarded to me was interesting.

The whole blacklist/whitelist sets a dangerous precedent. It does not appear that any of the animals included were included due to any scientific data, and seems to comprise of lists of animals currently in the trade (white list) and animals not currently in the trade, excluding Cornsnakes, (black list). I am not certain that any of the animals on the black list would ever become commercialized. It appears that TP & W is merely shutting the door on all these species because there is currently no trade
and this would effectively preclude them from ever being commercialized in any form in Texas, at least by the private sector. And also because they can because there is no one to stand up for their interests.

It concerns me that somewhere a hobbyist or commercial business may right now possess an animal and the ability to reproduce that animal in captivity, and that animal may hold the key to treatments of cancer, Parkinsons, or MDA, but they will be unable to pursue it in the future because of the law.

I will be at the TP&W meeting on November 7th in Austin. I am planning on filming testimony and public comments on the HB12 implementation. It appears that on November 8th these new rules will go into effect.

I would encourage anyone with an interest in reptiles, especially anyone that has been/will be impacted by HB12 (Constrictors/Venomous/Road Collecting), to attend.

BPruett Oct 25, 2007 10:42 PM

When are we as a group here in Texas going to finally take a stand and fight back? 100 of us could show up at the next meeting and to be honest it wouldn't make a bit of difference to them! The number of breeders/keepers here in Texas is amazing and if we would all chip in $20,$30,$50,$100 each we could hire an Attorney. Then and only then will our words count. They are on auto-pilot passing whatever they want right now, but if we had a lawyer they would also have to fight to pass these laws instead of us having to stand alone fighting a losing battle all by ourselves.

Jeff,
I know you don't run auctions on Kingsnake but maybe adding an extra classified section for us to place animals forsale solely for the purpose of putting the funds towards getting an attorney might be a good ideal?
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Bobby Pruett
www.arborealsetc.com

antelope Oct 25, 2007 10:52 PM

Just brilliant!!! I can see it is gonna get tougher before it gets better, unify and fight the good fight!!!
HCU-TX.ORG
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Todd Hughes

KJUN Oct 26, 2007 05:43 AM

Below is a copy of an email sent to some higher up TPWD staff at HQ. I'm waiting to see how/if I get a reply.
KJ

****************************************

FYI....

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: Texas Parks and Wildlife "Black List" ~ CORN SNAKES
Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 17:39:28 -0500
From: KJ Lodrigue, Jr.
To: [snip]
References:

Good evening:

There seems to be some poor understanding and bad information in relation to the new "black list" entered in to the regulations. Pantherophis is listed on one list, and Elaphe is on the second list. There are also misspellings in the scientific names of some of the snakes of concern. To avoid all confusion, I will solely use the genus name Elaphe.

Prior to 1996, the "East Texas Cornsnake" populations were considered Emory Ratsnakes (E. emoryi or E. g. emoryi). In 1996, a re-evaluation occurred which proposed that they be considered a dark race of cornsnakes (E. guttata or E. g. guttata). In 2002, a molecular study subdivided the west Louisiana and east Texas populations into a unique species called Elaphe slowinskii, or Slowinski's Cornsnake. E. guttata was found to not occur much west of the Mississippi River. All "Texas cornsnakes" were considered E. slowinskii and not E. guttata. Obviously, TPWD recognizes this distinction because E. slowinskii is on the white list. The E. slowinskii, or Slowinski's Cornsnake, in east Texas can be legally sold in Texas.

The new black list says cornsnakes can not be sold, but those are considered exotic to Texas as long as the white list calls the population in east Texas E. slowinskii. In other words, the same exact snakes are called by two different scientific names in your regulations: one is legal to sell and the other is illegal to sell. As far as cornsnakes being exotic and still illegal to sell, there is no social or biological reason to single out cornsnakes for prohibition while keeping numerous other exotics legal to breed and sell in Texas. The idea of protecting an exotic species from collection within the state - or outlawing cornsnakes because they are exotic while allowing more potentially dangerous exotics to be sold within Texas - is illogical. I'm sure this has to be a mistake.

The deleterious effects from outlawing the sale of cornsnakes in Texas - without actually protecting any native populations - are large. Thousands, or even tens of thousands, of hobbyists maintain in excess of 6 captive bred cornsnakes. All of these people would potentially be breaking the law now. Every pet store that sells reptiles almost definitely has cornsnakes available during most of the year. Every pet store in Texas would suffer financial losses with the regulations as written. Numerous Texas residents - not counting non-residents that travel to Texas to buy and sell at Texas reptile expositions - would suffer serious financial harm by the prevention of the sale of captive bred cornsnakes within the state of Texas.

I hope this is just an oversight and can be quickly corrected. I'd be more than happy to provide any further information - including the actual citations - mentioned above. I've copied this email to [removed by KJ].

Thank you for your time,
KJ Lodrigue, Jr.

[Text removed by KJ.]
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KJUN Snakehaven

KJUN Oct 26, 2007 11:42 AM

A copy of a second email I just sent!
KJ

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: Texas Parks and Wildlife "Black List" ~ CORN SNAKES
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2007 11:24:48 -0500
From: KJ Lodrigue, Jr.
To:
CC:
References:

Good morning, Aaron:

I've been going over the black list, and I just noticed that House Mouse (Mus musculus) is now black listed, too. That means every laboratory breeding facility, every mouse breeding facility for the pet trade, and almost every pet store in Texas is soon going to be in violation of the law for selling common house mice? I can't even begin to estimate how many Texans possess in excess of of 6 live mice (not counting frozen mice for food items of pet species). Obviously, this is another exotic pet species being black listed for no valid biological or social reason. The list does not state which subspecies is/are black listed, so it is assumed that all "pet mice" are now a black listed species, correct?

I noticed that Mediterranean Geckos are still not on the white list nor on the black list. These are exotics, so TPWD doesn't regulate them even though they are still established in Texas. That is similar to the House Mouse, which you are black listing. Cornsnakes aren't established in Texas, but they are still black listed. These discrepancies are confusing, and they will be deleterious to tens of thousands of Texans.

I'm assuming that House mice (and deer mice, for that matter) are not meant to be on the black list. What, if anything, is being done to correct this situation? Where do we stand at this time?

Thanks in advance for your time,
KJ Lodrigue, Jr.
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KJUN Snakehaven

KJUN Oct 26, 2007 11:43 AM

no post - read above message
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KJUN Snakehaven

richardstr Oct 26, 2007 01:37 PM

Not that I am in favor of the list but I believe domestic mice are Mus domesticus. Correct me if i am wrong.
Richard

KJUN Oct 26, 2007 01:40 PM

>>Not that I am in favor of the list but I believe domestic mice are Mus domesticus. Correct me if i am wrong.
>>Richard

You are. That's only ONE SUBSPECIES of M. musculus. I went verify it in my wife's laboratory animal manuals before posting.......
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KJUN Snakehaven

richardstr Oct 26, 2007 01:58 PM

You may want to contact Matt Wagner at TPWD with your concern. I don't think the sttate has any intention of banning the sale of domestic mice.
R

KJUN Oct 26, 2007 02:01 PM

I've already contact him and other "Ivory Tower" staff in the TPWD HQ. I received a pretty good phone call from Austin HQ earlier. I'm waiting for more information before I post anything new pertaining to what I was told.
KJ
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KJUN Snakehaven

richardstr Oct 26, 2007 02:03 PM

Great. I really liked your letter to TPWD which you posted earlier. Are you a member of HCU?
Best
Richard

KJUN Oct 26, 2007 02:07 PM

>>Great. I really liked your letter to TPWD which you posted earlier. Are you a member of HCU?
>>Best
>>Richard

Thanks.

I actually hadn't really heard of HCU until I saw the banner in this post. I marked the page, but haven't looked at anything on the page yet. I have it in a "to do" list.
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KJUN Snakehaven

antelope Oct 27, 2007 12:47 AM

KJUN, bump it up a notch or three on the list, it is worthy!
HCU member
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Todd Hughes

aspidoscelis Oct 31, 2007 07:16 PM

Depends on who you ask. Mus systematics is kind of messy. Some people view Mus musculus, Mus domesticus, and Mus castaneus as distinct species. Some people call them subspecies of Mus musculus (i.e., Mus musculus musculus, Mus musculus domesticus, Mus musculus castaneus), and to confuse matters further lab mice (and... pet/feeder mice as well?) are hybrids of M. m. musculus and M. m. domesticus.

My impression (based on data from a recent talk by M. Nachman at NMSU; I don't know much about mouse systematics in general) is that the data supporting recognition of three separate species is along the same lines as Burbrink's stuff in Pantherophis. Which is to say, I don't buy it. However, if TPWD is accepting Burbrink's "species", they may as well accept these, too, to be consistent.

Really short version: without a clear specification of the intended taxonomy, reference to "Mus musculus" is ambiguous.

Patrick Alexander

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