Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Here's a temporary monitor cage I've been working on in my spare time (what spare time?).

I've been pretty much winging it as I go, keeping in mind that it's only going to be temporary for my 2 savannah monitors. I designed it so it can be assembled/disassembled so it can fit thru any doorway and also so I can modify each section (top & bottom sections) later on for any reptile I'll need it for, if I want/need to.

Overall cage dimensions will be 6ft (L) x 4ft (W) x aprox. 5ft (H). It will have a bottom section, top section, that will bolt together, and will have a seperate face housing sliding glass doors for the top section.

I ripped 2 x 4s for the studs & main frames. 3/8-inch plywood on the inside that will be covered with FRP on the bottom section and white panelboard for the top section.

The bottom section will have 2ft of dirt substrate. I went ahead & put casters on it just in case I ever could budge it, maybe I could move it, if needed. Heck, I can always hook a chain to my truck, run it through a window & pull it where I want it. Ha!

I'm going to install access doors in the top section, one on each side. Everything is glued & screwed. Not a single nail.

I'll probably just cover the outside with T11 or something similar.

This thing isn't perfect, it's not meant to be. It's meant to be temporary housing for a 3ft female and a nearly 3ft male savannah monitor, with potential for easy modification later on.

Ya'll take care!
HH
-----
Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

That's pretty nice for temporary caging. Where in the world did you get lumber straight enough to build that? Or did you straighten each piece when you ripped it?

Only thing I would do differently, assuming the bottom is going to be full of dirt, is to make the bottom platform more of a torsion box type structure. If you added more 2x4's to the bottom platform and then glued/screwed another sheet of ply to the bottom it would make for a much more stable structure, otherwise known as torsion box or stressed skin construction.
-----
Currently keeping a small collection of various Gonyosoma. Both G. janseni and G. oxycephala.

> > > Where in the world did you get lumber straight enough to build that?

Ha! Ha! Is it not ridiculous or what? It seems to just keep getting worse. Then you know why I ripped 2 x 4s. I don't think I saw the first 2 x 2 that held within i inch within a 3ft span. Been nice if I were building a tub or a boat. Preshaped.

And yeah, I had to cull quite a few 2 x 4s, but I found some straight ones that I didn't have to straighten/square with a saw.

> > > make the bottom platform more of a torsion box type structure. If you added more 2x4's to the bottom platform and then glued/screwed another sheet of ply to the bottom it would make for a much more stable structure, otherwise known as torsion box or stressed skin construction.

I think I know what you're talking about. I'll look into it and see if I want to fool with it or not. Since this is temporary I might see how stable this'll be and go from there. But I definitely appreciate any/all tips.

I forgot to mention the extra ply I used on the bottom. I capped the frame off with 3/8 ply & capped that with 3/4 ply. Then the 2 x 4s with brackets to hold 'em in place.

I'm also gonna run a metal beam (alum), or fiberglassed 2 x 4, across the width, in the center of the length, to help keep it from bowing out. It'll sit just below substrate surface.

Thanks Chris!
Mike
-----
Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

HH,
good job, you seem to have the right idea.
I would suggest adding drainage to the bottom, without good drainage you will eventally get a layer of sludge at the bottom of your substrate wich can harbor bacteria and just plain smell bad....ask me how I know!
Also I would (personally) ditch the frp idea and just seal the bottom with 2 part epoxy. The epoxy is very cheap ( $60, for a gallon-will cover aprox 300sq ft as aposed to $35+ per frp sheet) and available at the orange box.
The trick is to prime the wood with a p.v.a type primer or any cheap flat paint you may have around,let dry of course, then mix up your epoxy and go- and forget the silly paint chips they give you for looks.
Another quick tip, don't use sillicone to seal the seams, the epoxy will not adhear to it, use latex painters caulk 35-50 year type.
Good luck.
P.s witha name like H.H have you read the "Redneck Manifesto" ?
Cheers,
Ben

... seal the bottom with 2 part epoxy. The epoxy is very cheap ( $60, for a gallon-will cover aprox 300sq ft as aposed to $35 per frp sheet) and available at the orange box.

The trick is to prime the wood with a p.v.a type primer or any cheap flat paint you may have around,let dry of course, then mix up your epoxy and go- and forget the silly paint chips they give you for looks.

Since you mention the chips, I assume you mean the various garage floor epoxy paints available nowadays?

If so, could you clarify if you recommend the solvent-based varieties or the waterborne which are starting to show up.

If you mean solvent-based, can it be applied over a later based paint or PVA primer? The solvent based epoxy paints I used years ago would have lifted any waterborne paint, but the solvents were a lot nastier back then.

Another quick tip, don't use sillicone to seal the seams, the epoxy will not adhear to it, use latex painters caulk 35-50 year type.

Epoxy won't stick to silicone, but silicone will stick to epoxy, so one could always apply silicone after the fact. Or does silicone not stick to the epoxy you are recommending?
-----
Currently keeping a small collection of various Gonyosoma. Both G. janseni and G. oxycephala.

Hey Chris,
I use and recomend the solvent based types,the ones for garage floors. I have been using these for years for sealing enclosures, dog runs, vet kennels etc, they used to be almost $200 a gallon, but the prices have come way down.
The ones available at the big box are actually quite good and will off gas completely in 7 days.
I recomend using latex caulking before you do your primer, this gives a much better seal and just looks/works better.
Personally I hate the sillicone, nothing but problems in my book, they always peel and won't accept paint. Latex caulk is the way to go unless you absolutely need it to be clear ( attatching glass, etc)
I just finished up a nice ackie enclosure using this method and am on my way to photograph it today, I'll try and post pics later if poss.
On a unrealated note- finally hatched out some moellendorfi, check out the post on the asain ratsnake sub forum.
Take care,
Ben

Forgot to add, yes the 2 part epoxy will work over latex primer, will not lift if the primer is properly cured.
Priming helps "fill up" the wood allowing the epoxy to not have to soak in as deep, giving you a more uniform, thick finish.
Ben

Ben,

You know I saw that thread and was thrilled to see it (the results) but never realized it was you. Congrats and keep up the good work. Has your friend/associate had anymore luck with Gonyosoma?

Thanks for the information on the epoxy. Can you give me an idea of what type of reptile enclosures you have used this epoxy in? And flooded wooden cages or ones with moist soil layer?

Also, how forgiving is it when mixing less than a full batch? I know some epoxies, especially the newer waterborne products, are VERY sensitive to less than perfect mixing ratios.

And I guess I should ask if there is a specific product you use?

Thanks.
-----
Currently keeping a small collection of various Gonyosoma. Both G. janseni and G. oxycephala.

Chris,
I use this epoxy method on many different types of reptile enclosures, but mostly for moist dirt type enclosures where the area in contact with the dirt needs to be basically waterproof.
Here is a pic of a raise up enclosure I'm putting together for some juvie indo monitors.

This set up is obviously still in progress and unfinished but should give you the jist of what I'm talking about.
I'll post some pics of some finished enclosures in a new thread when I get some time ( on a lunch break now)
About small batches, just make sure your ratios are right on and make sure wether the instructions call for a mixing ratio by weight OR volume...very important!
What I do is to try and have a couple of projects ready to go at the same time and just mix it all and go to town.
Thanks for the congrats, I have actually gotten my friend into monitors now and he is selling off most of his colubrids!
But both of us are totally into the moelendorfi, so those will definately stick around.
Cheers,
Ben

Hi Ben,
Thanks for the compliment.

Funny you should mention the drain because I thought about doing that after reading about it in Daniel's book not long ago. That was the first I'd ever heard of it and liked the idea.

I was told by someone experienced that they tried it a few times but the bigger monitors seemed to always manage to get it clogged up, even going under the screen.

I can still put one in this cage & it just might be a good idea to at least try it since this is a temporary cage anyway. I'll seriously consider it now that I've heard someone else mention it in a positive way.

Incidentally, I had planned on this cage being 8ft long instead of 6. I miscalculated materials needed and didn't realize it until the day I got started on it. I live so far out in the boonies that I decided just to reduce the size & let it be temporary since I'll be able to use a cage this size later on. Now I wish I had waited another week, but, oh well. A redneck moment. Ha! Ha!

Now's a fine time to be telling me about two-part epoxy, seeing as how I've already got the 2 sheets of FRP I'll need. Hahaha! I read were Chris is Jeremy, one, had mentioned epoxies for something else and I had never even thought about it before. I've only seen & used the small tubes/syringes of it building R/C airplanes so I never thought about it coming in gallon cans at a feasible price.

My thoughts on epoxy are; Will it be as hard for a monitor's claws to penetrate as FRP? Actually, that's probably getting into splitting hairs, which I try to avoid, being the simple-minded fella I am.

Reading on down, discussions between you & Chris, I see something I never considered. Here I am worried about how penetratable epoxy, FRP, is but I've failed to foresee how easy it would be for a digging monitor to break a silicone corner bead/seal. I like your idea on the caulk & then epoxy.

For anyone: If I use FRP, will fiberglass adhere to it to seal corners/joints? Better ideas?

Ha! I'm not familiar with the Rednceck Manifesto. I checked it out but there's not much info on their site at the moment.

I'd better go, I'm gonna be late for the community's very own weekly UFC matches. Evr'y Friday night our neighbors have a get together that involves....., well, we'll just say, STRONG alcoholic beverages.

The most popular matchups are Mary Ellen and her husband Billy Ray, or Billy Ray and Cuzin Red. But these folks are good, they can fight without spillin' a drop of the moonshine they're a holdin'.

Thanks for taking the time to share some good pointers with me. I appreciate it!

Have a good one!
HH
-----
Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

Mike,

There are ways to make a drain lizard proof but I don't much see the need, a drain for a water source is great but a drain for seapage is ridiculous. Control the water better. Manual rotate the soil ever so often and use plenty of heat eventually you'll get a great reciepe. Besides Monitors frequently rotate their own soil.

Regardless I think FRP is still a good choice for the walls as its easy to apply to a vetical surface astetically pleasing durable and relativly easy to clean. However epoxy is a good choice for the flooring, most epoxies aren't the best looking and if you screw up no one will see. I can see the two products working well together.

Actually when I designed my Iguana cages there were no caulked seams the soil was contained in a bed pan and the sides overlaped. It was pretty complicated but it will never get built. I might try a bedpan of epoxy and press with the sides in FRP.

Best of Luck
-----
Jeremy

"I am become death, the destroyer of worlds" July 16, 1945 Robert Oppenheimer

0.1 Sunglow "Khal" RTB
0.1 Snow "Khal" RTB
1.0 Double Het "Khal" Sunglow RTB
1.1 Double Het "Sharp" Snow RTB's
1.1 Hypomelenistic RTB's
0.0.13 Hypomelenistic RTB's
0.2 Pastel Hypo RTB's
1.0 Double Het Stripe Albino RTB's
0.1 Suriname RTB
0.0.7 Normal Suriname Hybrid's
0.1 Anerthrystic RTB
3.6.14 Red Bearded Dragons
1.1 Rhinoceros Iguana's
1.0 Green Iguana
1.0 Ball Python
1.1 Cream Golden Retrieviers
1.0 Pomeriaian
0.3 Catus Terribilis
0.1 Spouse
1.0 Child

Hey Jeremy!
One reason I like the drain idea is so I won't have to churn 48 cubic feet of dirt, at all. I'm gettin' lazy as I get older. Ha!

I feel that I could do with or without it. With a drain I wouldn't have to be as careful & precise in wetting it down since I can't see the moisture level. Even in the tanks I use dirt in, even though I can see the moisture, it can still be a bit hard to keep from overdoing it while trying to keep the humidity right in the cage.

For the most part, once you get a new setup fine-tuned, it's not much of an issue, as long as you stay on top of it. That last part is where I tend to goof, slack, or whatever you want to call it. Ha!

A different idea I thought of is to install a vertical section of glass, plexiglass, etc..., at least a few inches wide, so I can see the moisture level. Of course, it wouldn't be an exact science because I'll only be able to see the conditions of that one little section but still.

I'm going to go ahead & use FRP for the floor & sides of the bottom section on this cage but I'm now thinking about using the two-part epoxy idea on the 2 x 4 brace that I mentioned earlier. That'll give me a chance to test it out, to see how it works and stuff. Might even test it out on a joint or two.

Thanks for your input, Jeremy!

Catch ya later!
Mike
-----
Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

"There are ways to make a drain lizard proof but I don't much see the need, a drain for a water source is great but a drain for seapage is ridiculous."

Spoken like someone with out experience! how many monitor enclosures with large dirt areas have you set up and maintained?
Ever set up an enclosure for large indo species?
Drainage for large dirt areas is a must, especially if you have lots of moisture and good draining soils, you know the type of soil that works for monitors.
To say that proper drainage is ridiculous is naive and potentialy dangerous to the animals. Straight up if you have good soil and proper humidity, you will eventually get a layer of sludgey quick sand type goop at the bottom of your dirt area that will smell bad and harbor bacteria.
Please explain why drainage for soil areas is "ridiculous"
Ben Aller

Jeremy,
I see you are trolling for someone else to answer this question for you, why?
You felt confident enough to post this comment, can't you back it up with your own experience?
You have designed one iggy enclosure that you didn't even build or test out, yet are willing to ridicule someone with experience.
Please explain, what could the potential drawbacks to adding drainage to any enclosure that holds deep substrate be?
This goes for both indoor and outdoor set ups.
What real life experience do you personally have with building and maintaining large enclosures?
In my experience drainage in monitor enclosures is a big deal and something most don't consider untill it becomes a problem. I know I didn't think it was a big deal untill I started actually working with these types of enclosures myself and dealing with problems associated with too much moisture/no drainage.

Ben

Ben,

I'm not going to argue on the forum, I'm sorry you took offense to something that wasn't directed towards you. As for the other forum it's not possible for someone to try and learn from there mistakes, is it. I'm not trolling I'm learning, why are you so defensive. If I had not seen wisdom in your statments I would have replyed.

But I am not above being wrong, I learn and I share what I have learned. Are there ways to make a drain work in a monitor cage, Yes. Is a drain a requirement, well Ben you know monitors you tell me, what works for some doesn't work for all.

Best of Luck
-----
Jeremy

"I am become death, the destroyer of worlds" July 16, 1945 Robert Oppenheimer

0.1 Sunglow "Khal" RTB
0.1 Snow "Khal" RTB
1.0 Double Het "Khal" Sunglow RTB
1.1 Double Het "Sharp" Snow RTB's
1.1 Hypomelenistic RTB's
0.0.13 Hypomelenistic RTB's
0.2 Pastel Hypo RTB's
1.0 Double Het Stripe Albino RTB's
0.1 Suriname RTB
0.0.7 Normal Suriname Hybrid's
0.1 Anerthrystic RTB
3.6.14 Red Bearded Dragons
1.1 Rhinoceros Iguana's
1.0 Green Iguana
1.0 Ball Python
1.1 Cream Golden Retrieviers
1.0 Pomeriaian
0.3 Catus Terribilis
0.1 Spouse
1.0 Child

Jeremy,
I'm not above being wrong either( in fact I'm wrong quite often- just ask my girlfriend), sorry to come off as defensive. I'm not offended by your comments just trying to flesh out the meaning behind them and to get a conversation going. That's what these forums are for, sharing and learning, the problems start when statements are made with out the ability to back them up.
And yes, for the record I do believe drainage for dirt areas is mandatory, unless your dirt is so shallow that it dries quickly, otherwise even in the driest cage with good humidity control you will eventually see problems, it may take years but they will crop up.
In my opinion if you don't eventually see these issues you are keeping the soil too dry.
But like I said I am wrong often...so who knows.
Take care,
Ben

Ben,

Well thats my experiance shallow dirt, both in keeping snakes years ago and currently with dragon's, I use shallow dirt but I use dirt, firm believer it mother natures dirt works best IMO.

Also like I mentioned I frequently turn my dirt, and replace my dirt something not very easy in a monitor cage, nor in the Iguana's cage I would assume.

I'm sure I would have more opinions if I had a large enclosure with active dirt but than again I don't.

Its also my opinion taht in nearly all enclosures from the largest monitor cage down to a cage with Dart frogs active living soil is very hard to maintain. Even in Dart tanks its necessary to replace soil ever 1-2 yrs based on the decay and waste material. Based on evidence I've seen even in a 10' sq monitor cage with 2' of soil I would still cahange the soil every 2 yrs.

With or without drains the active cultures required to break down the waste material wouldn't survive in teh enclosure, perhaps if the enclosure was built for Ackies but who has that kind of space.

When we force the animals to be confined within a smalller enclosure its necessary to remove waste and do soil exchanges periodically to remove waste, nitrates etc. Before those levels become toxic, so If I am going to perform soil exchanges anyways its my opinion that rather worry about a comprimised drain. I will practice appropriate water intake into the system as well as monitor spills from water sources. I do feel a drain for the water source is a luxary I can't live without.

My feelings are based on a indoor enclosure with a wood based contruction. Indoor enclousres with concrete slabs and brick and mortar walls are a completly different story. A faulty drain will not comprimise the integrity of the enclosure as it would with a ply floor. In such and enclosure I would use a drain, while I would still exchange soil because there is no worry of structural comprimise. My worry with ply constrcution is the integrity of the seal and potential abuse from a large clawed lizard. Again no practical application but it is my experiance that with any enclosure if there is a weakness the animal will exploite it.

Cheers
-----
Jeremy

"I am become death, the destroyer of worlds" July 16, 1945 Robert Oppenheimer

0.1 Sunglow "Khal" RTB
0.1 Snow "Khal" RTB
1.0 Double Het "Khal" Sunglow RTB
1.1 Double Het "Sharp" Snow RTB's
1.1 Hypomelenistic RTB's
0.0.13 Hypomelenistic RTB's
0.2 Pastel Hypo RTB's
1.0 Double Het Stripe Albino RTB's
0.1 Suriname RTB
0.0.7 Normal Suriname Hybrid's
0.1 Anerthrystic RTB
3.6.14 Red Bearded Dragons
1.1 Rhinoceros Iguana's
1.0 Green Iguana
1.0 Ball Python
1.1 Cream Golden Retrieviers
1.0 Pomeriaian
0.3 Catus Terribilis
0.1 Spouse
1.0 Child

Jeremy,
I failed to realize that your problem was with drains functioning properly and potential for structural failure or escape.
All of these issues are easy to prevent or fix.
There are several sturdy industrial drains availabe, think industrial irrigation, or commercial application.
As I mentioned earlier, use a layer of drainage rock to help prevent clogging, use suitable size rock for the set up.
Building an enclosure that can withstand the rigors of captive varanid husbandry is totaly feasable, if your enclosure cant hold the dirt you want, you need to design and build a better enclosure.
Changing dirt every few years is fine if it works for you, with all of the large enclosures I maintain it is not reasonable to have to change dirt that often.
Cheers,
Ben

"With or without drains the active cultures required to break down the waste material wouldn't survive in teh enclosure, perhaps if the enclosure was built for Ackies but who has that kind of space."

Funny you should mention that, I keep ackies in small groups in large cages.

both are 4x8x4.
Ben

Here is the deal with the drain, use a rigid sink type drain or a p.v.c/ a.b.s french drain, both are cheap and easy to istall.
Use a small layer of 3/4-1-1/2 inch drainage rock, available at any material yard, just use enough rock to cover the bottom of the cage. Over that you can use a screen cloth or even the cheap weed sceen, then dirt on top of that. The rocks will provide an area for moisture to seep out of the dirt and drain out of the bottom, this will be minimal drainage but it will save you much work in the long run....again ask me how I know!
I have never had a problem with them digging through the cloth or messing with the rocks, of course most of my monitor enclosures have a full 24" of dirt depth so that may be a factor.
With out a drain you will eventually be removing that dirt, with one you may never have to change the dirt, for me it's worth the minimal effort up front.
As for FRP, the main problem with it is improper istallation and seams that are not sealed well. Even when properly installed the glue will eventually fail and moisture will get into your wood causing rot. FRP works no doubt but in my opinion it is not worth the hassle- hell, I have a really nice table saw set up with a 10' table all around and it is still a pain to cut/seam well, plus it makes the enclosure look like a bathroom, not very aesthetically pleasing to me but to each his own.
When prepped well the epoxy seals like a charm does not wear out, can stand up to the claws of large monitors ( dogs, pigs etc) and can still be painted over, and it's a heckuva lot cheaper than FRP.
Your idea about plexi is great- I build my nest boxes with a plexi sheet in front covered with a hinged solid door, that way they are private but I can just open them up and check moisture/temp levels and look for eggs, works like a charm.
I'll throw up some pics of some of this stuff later today, just gotta finish up some electrical work in my reptile room, right now it looks like a robot threw up in there!
Cheers,
Ben

Ha! Ha!

If I think logically about the drain I tend to feel that it would be best to install one. If it does eventually get clogged, I won't be out much time or money for the effort. It seems to me that it's possible benefits outweigh things.

This is my first time messing wtih FRP. I've come to the conclusion that when the makers of FRP recommend wearing a respirator, they're not talking about a plain ol' paper mask. Hahahaha! That stuff's potent, I tell ya. And I thought Jenny Kay's underwear was bad.

Considering my experiences with problems associated with flexible joints I ran a heavy bead of adhesive near the panel's perimeter since this is the area I definitely don't want to move/flex.

I'll definitely be giving the two-part floor epoxy a try soon as I've got several more cages to build for other reptiles.

Everyone has made good points and I appreciate it. Especially considering that I only posted the pics to show Jeremy & Chris what I was working on, not specifically asking for any specific input. But as usual, I'm ALWAYS open for & readily welcome, ANY/ALL input from anyone. To not be that way would, in fact, be ridiculous.

Ben, if you get a chance & don't mind, I'd like to see a few of your projects, either completed or in progress.

Thanks a bunch, guys!

Ya'll have a good one!
HH
-----
Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

We all learn something, new everyday. Weather or not a drain would help is still outside my experiance. You are correct the effort used to install the drain is probably easier than not installing the drain, as it has the potential to save on future cage maintenance.

That being said I have pondered the use of a drain in my Iguana enclosures. I already need one for the water source, because there is no way I'm draging a tub of water to the toilet at least a few times a week. Since this will be towards the one end it is possible to run a line to the center of the enclosure for a floor drain. MY idea to prevent comprimise and clogging and since this would be a seapage only line. Would be to install teh drain as usually with the grate etc. However from the drain to the T connection with the other line or at leat part of it, some backfilling with pea gravel or small rock would prevent soil erosion through the drain. This rock would have to be secured in some fashion. Still an idea in progress.

As for the FRP I will still use it for the sides and ceiling, however I may consider using the epoxy for the floor. And up part of the sides to form the tray. The FRP on the sides would overlap some of this but the epoxy would do all the work.

Thanks for letting me think out loud.

Cheers
-----
Jeremy

"I am become death, the destroyer of worlds" July 16, 1945 Robert Oppenheimer

0.1 Sunglow "Khal" RTB
0.1 Snow "Khal" RTB
1.0 Double Het "Khal" Sunglow RTB
1.1 Double Het "Sharp" Snow RTB's
1.1 Hypomelenistic RTB's
0.0.13 Hypomelenistic RTB's
0.2 Pastel Hypo RTB's
1.0 Double Het Stripe Albino RTB's
0.1 Suriname RTB
0.0.7 Normal Suriname Hybrid's
0.1 Anerthrystic RTB
3.6.14 Red Bearded Dragons
1.1 Rhinoceros Iguana's
1.0 Green Iguana
1.0 Ball Python
1.1 Cream Golden Retrieviers
1.0 Pomeriaian
0.3 Catus Terribilis
0.1 Spouse
1.0 Child

> > > Thanks for letting me think out loud.

Ha! Thanks for thinking for me.

Mike
-----
Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

HH,
Check out the thread above for my latest finished enclosure.
Here are a few pics of some of my other work.
V. salvator exhibit, Berkeley Ca

The monster who lives there

ackie enclosure, not quite full of dirt

Fresh water river ray exhibit Monterey Ca

stiltroot tree San Francisco ca

Damn, these are mostly old photos, hope they'll do. Gotta git me some new pics.
Cheers,
Ben