Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Just wanted to let those who responded know that I appreciate it- much. Also, I have posted 3 pics under PICS: BALL PYTHON Thanks again.

I don't know where that is- Am I just a dufus?

Stevo

In the photo section.... Anyway looks like a horrible burn. Probably from a uth with no tstat on a glass tank. My advice is to get the poor animal to the VET asap.... Good luck

She has a appointment in three hours.

hour and 1/2 until appointment now.

If this is a burn, is it just soreness causing stiffness in lower portion of her body? My UTh was purchased @ pet store- no thermostat. I keep two therms in tank, tho. TEMPS never too high.

Does anyone use HUMAN heating pads? If so, what setting. I can't stomach this happening again. Poor baby. I'm so sad.

What kind of thermometers are you using and where do you have them in the tank? If you don't have one directly on the substrate in the hotspot you're probably not getting an accurate reading (or your thermometer might not be working). I've found that my tempgun works much better anyways. A lot of heat mats sold for reptiles will get well over 100F without some sort of thermostat. I personally like my heat cable better...it doesn't seem to get as hot if it's set up properly. I let it go on full power (empty rack, of course) to see how hot it got and the hottest reading I got was 95F. I still use a t-stat (I would regardless of what heat source I used), but if it failes I doubt my snakes will cook.

Good luck at the vet!

Hope this helps,
Shelly

It's a bad burn. You need to buy a thermostat, there's no getting around it. This is the post I replied to you down below:

In regard to the digital thermometer (to the OP), make sure you're using one with a probe, or at least get a temp gun. If the thermometer is just the unit itself and you have it stuck on the cage wall, it will be measuring the air temperature, which is usually VERY different than the ground surface temperature.

When I bought my first ball pythons and was told about the dangers of unregulated heating elements and analog thermometers, I switched to racks. With the old setups, I decided to mess around with the equipment to see how hot things actually could get (and potentially what my first snake may have experienced in the beginning 1-2 weeks before I bought better equipment). I had coconut bark inside the tank and 2 hides, one on each side. When the heat pad was plugged directly into the wall outlet with no thermostat to control it, the ground temp on the substrate under the hide was 110-112. I used a digital human thermometer to measure it in various spots within the hide. With a lamp added to the heat pad, it went way over 130 degrees (maxed out the thermometer). That is extremely high and scared the crap out of me to think that it may have been that high before I bought my probe thermometers and thermostats...and how lucky I was that Spoon didn't get burned or killed. That is why I try so hard to get it across to other new keepers that they HAVE to use these things to properly manage heat -- after seeing what it can do via my own experiment, burn pics from other keepers, and having a rescued rainbow boa here that has brain damage from being overheated, I don't want anyone to end up with injured/dead animals.

Your heat pad got too hot by itself, and you need to regulate it. Hope all goes well for her recovery...
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~* Jen *~

Pink Lady Constrictors

Hey,

Trust me from experience on this one- that is the nastiest case of belly rot I've ever seen. And frankly it only gets that bad if you are massively inatentive, so not to beat you up on here- but the signs were there months before that nastyness.

It is caused by a fungus- your vet will tell you it's a bacterial problem and give you rub-on medicine which will NOT work. Your snake may not recover because it's in bad shape- but the only recourse is an anti-fungal creme.

Treat twice daily, don't try feeding until it's almost healed. The snake will need a lot of water as it is using it to replenish skin, and it will shed more often, but don't let it soak in it's water bowl- the skin needs to be able to dry out, so keep humidity down.

It can spread to other snakes, and if the other one shows signs, treat as well.

Good luck and keep posting, let us know how it goes...

Steve Harrison

I'm inclined to agree with Steve. And I'd follow his advise on treating it. I lost a nice female to a case of belly rot it had before she came into my hands. Good luck with it. I DO hope it's not to late.

Quig
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Don't interupt me when I'm talkin' to myself

Looks like belly rot. I have a female that has a nasty scar on her belly. The guy that had her before me, kept her on wet astroturf. It healed and she is ok now.
Those pics look like its been that way for awhile. Very nasty. I hope she heals ok.

Your vet will probly (or should have already) given you a cream called SILVER SULFADIAZINE (SILL-ver sul-fa-DYE-a-zeen) Or SSD for short. Its a topical cream that you shold be applieng twice daily to the infected area (and extended). It will also treat burns aswell. So its a great thing to have when ever you are housing snakes. But along with this you are going to want to wash your snake daily with a saline solution and Chlorhexiderm flush. The Chlorhexiderm will dry your reptile its almost like Rubbing Alcahol only not as potent. So rinse with saline, wash with Chlorhexiderm then apply SSD. Those should be basic instructions for helping your snake. Your vet may or should also give your snake Steroids, and you may need to continue the use of the steroids every 2-3 days it will be in small CC amounts and is fairly easy to give the doses via syringe. I went through something similar though not bellow rot we actually suffered a cat attack to a 70g female baby ball python. It not fun but if you want your repitle to become better do the responsible thing.

Frank Wood

SSD is a topical antibiotic, the exact thing my vet recommended when I had a snake with that problem. It will do nothing but make it worse, as it is NOT designed to treat FUNGAL problems. You can actually go to the local pharmacy and get an antifungal creme for athlete's feet that will work fine.

SSD will NOT work, I know this through direct experience. I tried it for weeks and my snake just got worse and worse. Then I found out the source through a good friend- put an antifungal on it and it cleared up in a few weeks.

DO NOT use SSD!

Steve Harrison

Why would it make it worse. Straight from wikipedia...

"silver sulfadiazine topical
Generic Name: silver sulfadiazine topical (SILL ver sul fa DIE ah zeen TAH pih cal)
Brand Names: Silvadene, SSD, SSD AF, Thermazene

What is silver sulfadiazine topical?
Silver sulfadiazine is an antibacterial and antifungal agent.

Silver sulfadiazine topical is used to prevent and treat skin infections on areas of burned skin.

Silver sulfadiazine topical may also be used for purposes other than those listed in this medication guide.
"

Something tells me that if you read your active ingrediants on your foot cream it will be atleast 75% of the ingrediants found in ssd.

to each there own though i guess.. id use it any day of the week and feel comfortable.

you probly know more about belly rot then me hence ive only read about it and none of my snakes have ever had it.

Frank

It may be the type of fungus infection. I do know some anti-biotics can actually increase the growth of fungi. As I don't know much about SSD itself or how effective it is for scale rot...I can't say if its ok to use or should not. But I certainly suggest talking to your vet about it.
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PHLdyPayne

Hey,

Frank- you bring up a good point- I'll check, but maybe mine was expired- I had it from a previous rescue a few months before I used it on the belly rot on the next one- could've sworn it most mostly for bacteria- I do remember the anti fungal working quite well.....

I would e-mail a large breeder personally to clear up the issue- what did the vet say?

Thanks Frank,

stevo

steve,

Yea not sure why in your case that didnt work out to well, no matter what was put on there really you would think anything is better then nothing ya know. maybe it was expired or maybe you just caught it at an awkward time befor the belly rot really started developing.

if the information changes on ssd that would be great to know incase, and i really do mean, incase, one of mine gets rot then i would know that on multiple cases ssd has not been effective. and not just maybe a fluke case?

curious to see what you come up with, because like i said i havent dealt with any type of rot. So in the event that one day it may happen I would much rather know what not to use then what to use. Some one can always tell you what to try but only few people can tell you what they have tried and not been sucessful with.

Thanks Steve

Frank

The literature that comes with SSD creme states "Silver sulfatdiazine has broad antimicrobial activity. It is bactericidal for many gram-negative and gram-positive bacteria as well as being effective against yeast." Yeast is a fungus, but only one of several types of fungus. Ohh, I need a microscope and an advanced degree! My brain hurts.

Stevo

Yes, yeast is a fungus, and only one type of several kinds of fungus. It is also a fairly common fungal pathogen of the skin, in general.

I posted a much more extensive reply below.

~Rebecca
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1.0.0 Dumeril's Boa '04
1.1.1 Ball Pythons
[1.0.0 '05 Orange Hypo (Specter)]
[0.1.0 '05 Het Orange Hypo (Sylvia)]
[0.0.1 '03 Normal (Sue)]
0.2 American Pit Bull Terriers (40lb darling lap dogs:Brandy&Mara)

Steve -- This is a quote from his first post:

"I switched their substrate about two months ago. I am now using newspaper instead of carpet, for convenience and cost."

Newspaper is obvious when its wet, so if he was changing it regularly and keeping it dry, how could it have caused bellyrot on the 2 snakes? Unless he wasn't changing it and keeping it sopping wet and covered in urine and feces...that would make sense then. If the belly rot developed before the switch when he was using carpet, wouldn't 2 months of dry newspaper allowed it to heal quite a bit -- and it wouldn't look as bad as it does now?
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~* Jen *~

Pink Lady Constrictors

I've heard more than a few accounts where a keeper's ball python "suddenly" developed scale rot and the only change in husbandry was a switch to newspaper as bedding. This has apparently happened to many keepers and the thought behind it is that newspaper is an ideal breeding ground for bacteria and fungus (absorbs and retains moisture and offers absolutely no air circulation around the belly scales, compared to other substrates). Since many keepers are very successful with newspaper, this observed correlation between a switch to newspaper and scale rot is likely rooted in poor husbandry and the newspaper only exacerbated the problem.

Hmmm. So then it would have to mean that the snakes are having to sit on damp paper or urine/feces soaked paper to develop this. I could see how soaked newspaper could accelerate it.
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~* Jen *~

Pink Lady Constrictors

I think so, too. I would imagine that keepers got away with this with, say, aspen because they wouldn't have to clean immediately after. However, if this habit is then transferred over to newspaper then I can see an increased likelihood of scale rot. I think one must be very diligent when using newspaper, more diligent than the average keeper.

What gets me is that when using newspaper, it is very obvious when they've urinated or defecated -- the paper gets dark and nasty and is like a big neon sign saying "Changing Time". I use newspaper and I can't miss it. You would think it being that obvious would encourage the keeper to change it when he sees that it needs it. How can you see that the snake is laying in urine/crap and not do anything about it? That's really gross...
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~* Jen *~

Pink Lady Constrictors

Correlation does not explain causation.

I suspect that the noted "correlation" between the switch to newspaper and issues with belly rot actually has at least two causes - neither of which is the newspaper... or maybe even how the animals are kept on that paper.

First, what usually causes someone to want to switch to newspaper is that there is a problem with the substrate they have been using previously. Whether that means the keeper is unsatisfied with how well they can clean it, or detect when it needs to be cleaned, or they are detecting (on some level) that their animals are not thriving as they should be. Cost can also be a common factor - and when it is, it is also a fair guess that cost of the old substrate led to it not being maintained or cleaned very well. The first cause then, of the correlation of switching to newspaper and belly rot issues would in fact be the conditions in which the animal was kept prior to the change in the substrate.

Second, with the switch to newspaper, all of the heat & humidity sources in the enclosure have a new and different effect on the captive environment. A lot of people do not think of this ahead of time, only to be shocked into realizing the change by some problem... like belly rot, or a burn. The second cause of the correlation of switching to newspaper and belly rot would be the keeper not adjusting the rest of the enclosure to the changed substrate.

Towards the end of this thread I responded extensively (microbes, burns, belly rot, etc....) about the kinds of interplay between burns & microbes that can lead to belly rot. I mentioned how a burn can invite an infection. What I didn't mention, and should have, is that even a very slight, small burn degrades the skin's ability to defend itself enough that an infection can take hold. I have to wonder what proportion of incidences of belly rot are in fact instigated by a burn that went unnoticed?

The two most likely causes of belly rot are moisture (whether that is water, or waste, that the animal has to sit in) and burns. Since a major function of this forum is to advise keepers about husbandry issues, this should be a major point to hit on with any suggested substrate change!!

Best of luck everyone

~Rebecca
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1.0.0 Dumeril's Boa '04
1.1.1 Ball Pythons
[1.0.0 '05 Orange Hypo (Specter)]
[0.1.0 '05 Het Orange Hypo (Sylvia)]
[0.0.1 '03 Normal (Sue)]
0.2 American Pit Bull Terriers (40lb darling lap dogs:Brandy&Mara)

Thanks for that little maxim. Note well that I was careful not to implicate newspaper as the cause.

I didn't think that you were saying newspaper was the cause at all. I thought you were making a good point by saying what you did. I just thought I could add something to it.

~Rebecca
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1.0.0 Dumeril's Boa '04
1.1.1 Ball Pythons
[1.0.0 '05 Orange Hypo (Specter)]
[0.1.0 '05 Het Orange Hypo (Sylvia)]
[0.0.1 '03 Normal (Sue)]
0.2 American Pit Bull Terriers (40lb darling lap dogs:Brandy&Mara)

Assuming they've been honest with their husbandry, then yes, that makes sense. But the "surprise" factor of it just "popping up" is BS, it has been like that for some time. And burns are localized on one part of the body, not the entire animal. If you noticed, the scale deformation continued up the side of the snake- a sign it's body has gone through multiple sheds to try to overcome this fungal infection.

This is from a severe from of neglect and has been going on for some time- it starts with a scale or 2 and quickly progresses if not treated properly.

Steve

I've seen posts on other forums where the snake had burns covering its entire underside from laying on a hot heat source. It wasn't just random spots, it ran the whole length of the belly. Are there specific signs/differences between scale rot and burns? Like belly rot would have such and such and a burn would not?
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~* Jen *~

Pink Lady Constrictors

Good question- burns just seem to have that 'baked' look with more dark 'charred' looking flesh- and it happens literally overnight- where belly rot starts off in spots and blisters, and then gets that bad over a long period of time.

Stevo

I just wanted to be sure you knew that this isn't my snake. This picture was posted by someone so I could compare my snake to what belly rot looked like. Thanks!

Belly rot is caused by bacteria, not fungi.
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-Becky Brown, RVT-
1.0 Lemon Pastel Classic Jungle(NERD)
1.0 Black Pastel
2.13 Normals
1.0 NERD Yellow/Green Hypo
1.1 Spiders(BHB)
1.1 Yellowbellies(BHB)
1.0 100% Het Pied Classic Jungle(Don Kaye)
0.1 50% Poss. Het Pied(Gary Kettring)
0.1 Classic Jungle
1.0 66% Poss Het Ax Genetic Granite(VPI)
18 07 Hatchlings

And the type I had was fungal, but I'm going to do some research to find out for sure. Without having cultured it, we're all just speculating anyway.

Steve

From the Merck Veterinary Manual
http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/index.jsp?cfile=htm/bc/171407.htm

Ulcerative dermatitis (scale rot, necrotic dermatitis), ball python

Ulcerative or necrotic dermatitis (scale rot) is seen in snakes and lizard. Humidity and environmental contamination have been considered the main predisposing factors. Moist, contaminated bedding allows bacterial and fungal growth which, when coupled with exposure to fecal degradation products, can predispose to small cutaneous erosions. Secondary infection with Aeromonas spp, Pseudomonas spp, and a number of other bacteria may result in septicemia and death if untreated. Erythema, necrosis, and ulceration of the dermis, and an exudative discharge are common. While lesions are often a sequelae of skin injuries, they more often develop from within, as is the case with classic necrotic dermatitis in the ball python. The disease can develop even when these animals are maintained under pristine conditions, so it is not simply a matter of excessive moisture and poor hygiene. The condition starts with hemorrhage into scales, followed by pustules that eventually lead to open and ulcerated lesions. Treatment with systemic antibiotics, topical antibiotic ointment, and excellent hygiene and husbandry are essential.

The description is right on, and I've tried SSD with no success, but an anti-fungal cleared it right up. Maybe it begins bacterial, and becomes fungal in conjunction? I wouldn't hang so long with the fungal connection if I hadn't lost a snake when treating with SSD and saved one with an antifungal...

hmmm....

Stevo

Steve,

In the broad sense, fungal infections and bacterial infections can all be considered "microbial" infections. In this medical application where we are discussing belly rot, many kinds of bacteria and/or fungus can be involved. Ideally, the vet being consulted would try to culture out the organisms responsible to identify the best available treatment.

For your own experience with belly rot, where you used SSD and then a different antifungal, it is entirely possible that the infection involved more than one pathogenic organism. If this were so, the SSD could have knocked back one or more of the pathogen strains, but the different antifungal medication was necessary to knock out the more resistant fungal strain, thereby effecting the sought-after cure. There is no reason to assume that this experience will be the case with every incidence of belly rot.

I looked at the pictures posted of the snake this thread concerns. I have to say, it looks more like a burn to me. Somewhat of an older burn (that probably started immediately after the substrate was changed, so 2 weeks ago), and a bad one. Burns can take any shape, and take up any area of the animal - it only depends on how the snake was laying on the heat source. Burns can also cause the initial degredation of the skin that can invite an infection, whether from bacterial or fungal pathogens, or both. It may well have progressed to an infection in addition to the burn. I don't however think any of us can tell that from the photos provided.

In case anyone is interested in where I am getting my information, I am an undergraduate college student, majoring in Food Animal Science - a degree that can double as pre-vet... my college is unfortunately very behind par on exotics as far as I'm concerned, but I chose food animals because those industries do a lot more with genetic screening and reproductive technologies, which fascinate me (because of my lifelong involvement with snakes). Anyhow, I took part of my battery of microbiology courses this summer, which leaves me fairly familiar with pathogens and diseases. I also grew up keeping reptiles - and I'm a lot older than my classmates... I don't want to admit how much older.

It is also worth noting that I wrote my term paper this summer on Pseudomonas aeruginosa, a species of bacteria. As "Pseudomonas spp" was mentioned as a potential causative pathogen in the vetmed manual, it is important to know that P. aeruginosa is known to have a particular affinity for creating infections in burn tissue in humans... and for typically being extremely resistant to just about every antibiotic you can get your hands on. It is most easily identified by the "blue-green" pigment it creates in an established infection (although from the pictures I have seen, I would call that color "blue-green-black" ). Bad stuff.

Many different species of bacteria and fungi can develop resistance to antimicrobial treatments. Just because one treatment works well for one infection, does not necessarily make that treatment superior to any other; it just means that the causative pathogen was susceptible to its effects. Likewise, just because a treatment does not work for one infection, does not make that treatment any worse than any other; it just means that the causative pathogens may be resistant to the treatment.

I notice that we don't seem to have heard back from the originator of this thread. I am very curious how the snake is doing.

Hope this helps guys. ... ... ... ... ...more on Pseudomonas aeruginosa

~Rebecca

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1.0.0 Dumeril's Boa '04
1.1.1 Ball Pythons
[1.0.0 '05 Orange Hypo (Specter)]
[0.1.0 '05 Het Orange Hypo (Sylvia)]
[0.0.1 '03 Normal (Sue)]
0.2 American Pit Bull Terriers (40lb darling lap dogs:Brandy&Mara)

There has been a lot of discussion about this. According to my vet, she had suffered a burn. He said that her attempt to shed it failed b/c she continued to lie in the same spot (under my male). She then developed a bacterial infection. She will be receiving injections of Fortaz every 3 days. I have been instruced to remove the water from her tank. She now only has a heat lamp and a hide. She is getting scrubbed daily with betadine to remove burn scabs and keep fresh scales clean. She then gets daily baths for 20-30min. She gets a fresh coating of SSD and put back into her tank. After only 3 days, she looks and acts a lot better.

Thanks to all for your advice and information. I would like to know where to get a temp gun. Cost? My thermometer wasn't accurate enough b/c it can't be right on top of the UTH?

Well atleast now you know for certain whats going on with your snake. Best of luck with getting it back to full health. Not totally understanding the removal of water. How would that schedule work? Are you only to offer water at certain times, when you can monitor it? Im guessing your vet doesnt want your snake laying in the water bowl. Or are they assuming that the snake will just get its water when it is being bathed?

Certainly you cant just let your snake do without water for the next month or how ever long you will be giving treatment.

What are alternatives to not having a actual water dish in the tank? Are there any?

-Frank

Your snake does need water to drink, however. Perhaps instead of removing it, you should switch to a bowl with a lid that only has a hole small enough for her to stick her head through to drink, but not climb in. I use these, and they work well. None of my snakes are able to soak, but get plenty to drink.

She should also have 2 hides, one on each side of the tank -- so that she can properly thermoregulate without being forced to choose security over temperature.

You can buy a great thermometer here:

www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?action=productDetail&productId=21243-1308-00887GT&lpage=none

Put the unit itself on the cool side to measure that temp, and run the probe over to the warm side, directly over the UTH to measure that temp.

In addition, you need to buy a thermostat to control your heat sources. Without one, your heat sources are reaching over 110-120 degrees (causing your snake's burns). The thermostat will control them to keep them at whatever temperature you set it to. The heat pad should be enough to keep the warm side at 90-92, you shouldn't need the heat lamp.

I also suggest that you house your snakes separately -- yet another reason has now been shown as to why they shouldn't be kept together.

Glad you got things sorted out and she's getting treated. Hard lesson learned.
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~* Jen *~

Pink Lady Constrictors

Good! I'm glad to hear she's responding well to treatment.

I have a PE-2 temp gun from Pro Exotics. I love it & use it all the time! Here's a link to their main page: Pro Exotics

I have to say, though I am definitely not the first, I would have to question the idea of removing water from your snake while she is being treated. It seems awfully counter-productive! Proper hydration is necessary for healing, and ambient humidity is important for skin health. I read a comment in a book somewhere (can't remember which one off the top of my head) where the author stated that 'a Ball Python's skin is probably the weakest organ it has; it is the most sensitive to changes in humidity & husbandry, and the most susceptible to health problems.' I couldn't agree more!

I would talk to your vet again about the water (unless of course you didn't fully explain to us what your watering regimen is, and you already have this covered). If you can't put together the rig that Jen Harrison suggested - and I know it works well for her - maybe a few small water bowls, of about a cup or so in volume that she can't soak in, but still has access to plenty to drink, and the cage can have better ambient humidity.

Just some ideas. Good luck!!

~Rebecca
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1.0.0 Dumeril's Boa '04
1.1.1 Ball Pythons
[1.0.0 '05 Orange Hypo (Specter)]
[0.1.0 '05 Het Orange Hypo (Sylvia)]
[0.0.1 '03 Normal (Sue)]
0.2 American Pit Bull Terriers (40lb darling lap dogs:Brandy&Mara)