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Vitaminize your Reptiles!!!!!!!

JKBREPTILES Oct 27, 2007 10:39 AM

I have been reading through the posts on here and did a little research in the forums and I have to say that I have found very little pertinent information about the importance of certain vitamins that help your animals reproductive efforts and your husbandry efforts. This post is an attempt to educate some of the newer people in the hobby and to help out others that may have never learned this information.

Several years ago I met a reptile breeder who injected liquid vitamins into his frozen thawed rats before feeding them to his snakes. I became very interested in this idea and decided to look into how effective this practice was. Over the years I have heard and read contradictory reports on this practice. Some say it is unnecessary because all of the vitamins are already in the rat and adding more is senseless because the extra vitamins will just pass through your reptiles system and be discard as waste. Others claimed that it makes a significant difference in the health of the mother snakes, eggs and offspring. I use to use this practice when I bred chameleons and I knew from that experience that additional supplementation was very important to the health of my females. I carried this experience over into my snake husbandry for female retics, burms, balls and boas. I do not Vitaminize their food the whole year however the last two months before cooling I dose the Pre-killed and frozen thawed rats up with Vitamin B12 and liquid calcium. I then does the rats after egg deposition to help the females recover better. I have noticed that the eggs produced are more robust and hardier in the long run, as an added bonus some of the offspring are born slightly heavier then their counter parts from the females I did not Vitaminize. The difference was not astronomical however with ball pythons there is an average from (8) clutches of Vitamized females of about 10-15 grams of extra weight on the neonates. The average female was 2500 grams and produced between 7-9 eggs each this past season. Prior seasons are based on reticulated python production; out of 10 female retics four were not Vitaminized and three bred to produce clutches of 36, 47 & 54 eggs. The Vitaminized females produced 4 clutches of eggs numbering 44, 46, 53, 33 eggs per clutch. The Vitaminized neonates were on average born again 15-20 grams heavier than their counterparts. This extra weight at birth gives Vitaminized neonates a kick start over their counterparts and increases their hardiness. The extra calcium may also increase their bone density which helps their skeletal biology along quite well.

B-12 information:
Vitamin B12 is a member of the vitamin B complex. It contains cobalt, and so is also known as cobalamin. It is exclusively synthesised by bacteria and is found primarily in meat, eggs and dairy products. There has been considerable research into proposed plant sources of vitamin B12. Fermented soya products, seaweeds, and algae such as spirulina have all been suggested as containing significant B12. However, the present consensus is that any B12 present in plant foods is likely to be unavailable to humans and so these foods should not be relied upon as safe sources. Many vegan foods are supplemented with B12. Vitamin B12 is necessary for the synthesis of red blood cells, the maintenance of the nervous system, and growth and development in children. Deficiency can cause anaemia. Vitamin B12 neuropathy, involving the degeneration of nerve fibres and irreversible neurological damage, can also occur.

More information at the link below: It's about humans but you can see the importance of this valuable vitamin for your reptiles also.

Link

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www.myspace.com/ballpython

jkbreptiles.com/

Replies (10)

zefdin Oct 27, 2007 01:23 PM

Interesting stuff. I wish there was a decent reptile vet on here, I think there used to be a reptile vet that would post occasionally a couple years ago, however, I havent heard from him in quite awhile??!

Even with your study, it is very hard to quantify, year to year, the control animals results to what would have happened with no vitamins? I am not criticizing, it is awsome work, just hard to understand and appreciate in the end.

I like to inject fluids with electrolytes like pydialyte into FT rats, or I even wait on the live ones until the snake dispatches it and has it 3/4 swallowed and I inject the fluids with a small syringe. This also works well for meds.

I have heard calcium supplements are good for females just prior to egg production. I wonder what the best delivery method for a snake might be? Is just dusting the FT rat w/powder calcium good? Are you better off using the liquid stuff and inject it?

~np!

JenHarrison Oct 27, 2007 01:59 PM

Is there a way to give these vitamins when using live prey?
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~* Jen *~

Pink Lady Constrictors

Emberball Oct 27, 2007 03:12 PM

I keep back some rats, when I purchase live, and have a nice rat rack to keep them in. I hold back females that are obviously pregnant, and some females to use as breeders. I do not really breed my own rats, but dabble in it. I fed some rats today, lettuce, grapes, and apples, and actually thought about using vitamin powder on the fruits and veggies. All my powder is old, so I am not going to do it today, but I am going to get some vitamin powder, and at least dabble in trying to use it to eventually benifit the snakes.

PHLdyPayne Oct 27, 2007 03:40 PM

This is an interesting topic, though care should be taken on what vitamines are added to frozen prey. Not all vitamins and minerals will be 'washed out' some are actually retained in the body and can build to toxic levels if too much supplements are given.

IN this case, only two vitamins are mentioned B12 and calcium (actually a mineral but anyway). I don't know if B12 is flushed from the body when excess is present. I also can't remember if its water soluable vitamins or fat soluable vitamins that are retained...but just want to put out the warning to be careful.

If anybody knows of a highly experienced reptile vet/researcher who specializes in reptile nutrition, feel free to use the 'contact us' link to send it to the chat coordinator. Guest chat week is coming up in 3-4 months and if you think this vet/nutritionist can spare a couple hours of his/her time to chat to us, it will be a great benefit to us all.

As for giving extra vitamins to living rodents before feeding, one thing i can suggest, is feed a vitamin rich diet to your rats about an hour or so before feeding them. Rats are omnivorous so can eat meat and vegetables just as we can. Below is a link showing foods high in B12. Most I won't recommend feeding to rats...not sure how they take to fish or other seafoods, but cooked beef liver has a high level of b12 and being cooked, will prevent any issues with raw meat. Breakfast cereals (non sweet kind, such as cheerios) are great sources as well and rats love them.

www.nutritiondata.com/foods-000116000000000000000.html

if the link above doesn't bring you to the search results, just go to the main home page (www.nutritiondata.com) click on 'tools' and select 'nutrition search tool' and select vitamin b12 as your search criteria. Pity it doesn't include rats and mice in the meat list LOL
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PHLdyPayne

RMB Oct 27, 2007 03:45 PM

Vitamins A, E, D, and K are fat soluble and can bioaccumulate to toxic levels (hence why beta carotene is the preferred method of supplementing Vitamin A, as it is only broken down as needed). Vitamin C and the B complex are water soluble and do not usually reach toxic levels in the body.

PHLdyPayne Oct 27, 2007 03:48 PM

thanks for clearing that up. I was pretty sure it was the fat saluble vitamins that can build in up the body, but didn't want to make a guess and be wrong.
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PHLdyPayne

JKBREPTILES Oct 27, 2007 05:04 PM

When feeding live prey I do not use injectable's because I raise my rats on a well proportioned high protein, vitamin and mineral rich diet. I make sure the rats are "GUT LOADED" before they are fed off to the snakes. Rat pinks, pups and crawlers get their nutrients from mom so they are usually packed with what ever mom eats. I have had ZERO ill effects on my snakes from using injectable calcium and other vitamins. I pointed these two substances out because they are the most import during this time of the year. I would highly recommend Beta Carotene as your vitamin A delivery system for your rats. I feed my rats dried sweet potatoes and carrots twice a week. If you maintain your own rodents then providing them a healthy vitamin and mineral rich diet is fairly easy. Frozen thawed rats have always be controversial when the question about vitamin deficiencies be cause by freezing. The fact is no one has an accurate answer and for every study that says that freezing causes a loss in nutrients there is a study that says differently.
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www.myspace.com/ballpython

jkbreptiles.com/

JenHarrison Oct 28, 2007 01:17 AM

I don't breed my own rats -- they never ever breed no matter how many times I've tried, I only have one pair that gives me routine babies. I do get my feeders in large amounts from the rodent breeder. I feed off half, then hold the other half until next feeding day. While they're with me, they get a high-protein diet that I make myself, plus vegetables and fruits every day. I get to bring home leftovers from work (they go in the trash otherwise) and they really like the variety of beans, carrots, broccoli, celery, radishes, apples, grapes, cheese, etc that they get. I just brought home green and gold beans for them tonight. I would think that my rats are already well-fed and full of good vitamins and protein -- so is that all I should do?
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~* Jen *~

Pink Lady Constrictors

Bigsurf Oct 28, 2007 08:09 PM

Secure the rat, etc. so it can't bite you. I stick their heads in a piece of pvc pipe and hold them. Lift the skin on their backs and inject your vitamin solution under the skin.

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BigSurf
Robert@SurfinBird.com

alicecobb Oct 28, 2007 05:21 AM

Fasinating discussion. I can't wait to here if supplements work long term on ball pythons. It would also be interesting to find out if the rats fed a varied diet (fresh veggies, fruit, beef liver, etc.)instead of the regular dog food/lab block type of diet prodcued stronger/heavier ball python babies and helped to better maintain an adult ball python's health.
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Alice Cobb
Florida Reptile Room

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