Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Here are the classifications that I think should be covered:

Locality - traced to founder stock, tight description and meristics. Not sure how far locality status can convey. Not far I would guess unless we come up with some better way of tracking lineages. The standup locality guy network doesn’t cut it IMHO.

Generic - more liberal description and meristic allowance. No known hybridization.

Morphs - I think that these should be there own classification as I don't really care if an albino king is a locality, cross or hybrid but understand that others would feel different. Perhaps morph should be a sub classification as in locality/albino or generic/hypo.

Known Hybrids - This classification would not be for the slew of elephe X mexicana X triangulum X zonata X whatever hybrid but for long term well thought out projects that yield stable phenotypes. Examples: hypo goini X blairs, abino thayeri X ruthveni (Jeff Crewla line), lucistic black rat (assuming the gene came from TX rat which may or may not be correct)

Prior to listing phenotype needs to be described. This may seem difficult for thayeri but not if you include meristic traits with the description.

Oh and yes Joe I think that rationalizing a generic into being more than it is a form of misrepresentation. Pure is pure and the only thing that can be pure in the "context of our conversation" is locality. Outside of that context pure should be stricken from our dialog.

>>Pure is pure and the only thing that can be pure in the "context >>of our conversation" is locality. Outside of that context pure >>should be stricken from our dialog.

You realize that having locality data in no way assures the animal is pure anything? We just need to strike the word pure from our conversations.
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http://www.hcu-tx.org

It would be purely form that locality. Understand that all these terms are constructs to help us communicate what is what. At the sub specific level at least there is no such thing as pure. Even using sub specific is a misnomer. FR describes populations we tend to think of as sub specifics behaving as full level species. I would have no problem however striking pure for the conversations but good luck with that. My bet is defining locality, generic and hybrid will prove hard enough.

>>>>>>My bet is defining locality, generic and hybrid will prove hard enough.

Yes. How many thayeri with definitive locality data do you know of in collections? How many of those snakes are paired up with mates from the exact same locality, and how many of those snakes are in the hands of breeders selling to the public.

By the end of my last question, we have the answer down to "none" or "almost none".

We better stick with generic and hybrid.
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http://www.hcu-tx.org

Work with what you have, cut your losses, do your best and move forward..

We have a lot of people with breeding stock that is trusted, some may have a pair, some may have a large well known group. They all need to be given the same weight and be logged in the same system. This way down the road you have a system like AKC that you can trace back the genealogy to get a history. A pedigree system will if nothing else keep things from getting worse, each time an animal (in either error or deception) is hybridized and the offspring make it back into the world as "pure" or "normal" you have a ripple effect, that cannot be undone, but you can do something to keep new ripples from happening.

This can be done for more than just Thayeri, it would help out all the Mexicana complex.

These have some Greeri in them


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Herp Conservation Unlimited

If you're going to do this I say develope a system that goes across the board not just for thayeri or mexicana.

Not sure the AKC analogy is apprpriate

You might think herp breeding is the wild west but the AKC doesn't have Kumbyah as their anthem either.

If anything is going to be done, it has to be started somewhere and somehow by someone. The system can be refined as needed and expanded as warranted.

If you build it they will come?

Lance
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Herp Conservation Unlimited

Lance you don't start building anything without a plan or at least an idea of where you want to end up. In this context doing otherwise would be a complete waste of time. I don't mean to offend you but suggesting otherwise indicates you haven't thought this out very well.
The thing with the AKC is people are willing to pay to have animals listed, pay for copies of registries and pay a premium for pedigreed animals. Just a little observation but herp buyers aren't willing to pay premiums unless there is a real sense of added value. I would further suspect that participation would be against the interest of the big players. If you were Mr. Thayeri would you want to let another group decide what constitutes a thayeri? A renowned breeder may remain independent due to any of the following reasons:

Line being so venerable that there is no reason to seek outside affiliation.

The desire to preserve independent control over the attributes.

Concern over the decline of breeds following registration.

The other thing is AKC deals with purebred phenotypes, you're worried about tracking genotypes. This is a HUGE difference. A blind man can tell the difference between Labrador and golden retrievers but the difference between an albino thayeri and an albino thayeri X ruthveni cross is virtually indistinguishable outside of a genetics lab. The realities of this IMO would make a registry worthless to most.

It is amazing that anybody can know all the thoughts and discussions that have gone on about this. The simple truth is that sometimes it is better to try and even to fail than it is to just sit back and watch.

I would like to see a system that allows current breeding stock to be registered and a genealogy traced back on any animal. Since we can not go back to the 70s and fire this up we have to think in the context of what we have on hand. How will we be worse off for the effort?
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Herp Conservation Unlimited

"It is amazing that anybody can know all the thoughts and discussions that have gone on about this."

I did not in any way infer that I "know all the thoughts and discussions that have gone on about this." It is just very clear to me that this is not a simple endeavor

"The simple truth is that sometimes it is better to try and even to fail than it is to just sit back and watch."

The simple truth is that if you're going to try you should give it your best shot and that includes planning. If you believe otherwise, then jump in and do it.

Well, I will say that there is planning, there are other things on the burner as well... but the worries people have about the history of our Mexicana stock is one thing on the fire... and there are people offering some ideas and concerns to help get such a thing in motion. It is not a one man show on my part.

Lance
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Herp Conservation Unlimited

I (we) recommend that anyone interested in this little project keep detailed Genealogy records online.

A good example of what I'm talking about is on Dan Johnson's Web site. Take a look at any specimen page (for example this one www.dan-johnson.net/herp/bgp00c0101.html) and you'll see the parents and grand parents (unless wild-caught), siblings in the clutch, offspring, pairings, etc. It is a readily accessible history of the animal online.

If everyone did this, it would be nice. I'm going to use this system for all my snakes. I'm just getting back into breeding after a long hiatus.
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http://www.hcu-tx.org

I am planning the same thing for my breeding stock, with any luck we will have time build a page during the hibernation vacation.

But I am still hoping to some day have a place to centralize this data for numbers of breeders.

Lance
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Herp Conservation Unlimited

Talk to our Web guy and see how difficult. I think it is doable.
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http://www.hcu-tx.org

With digital macro photography widely availible Dan's site does come to mind.

Is there such thing as a true/pure albino thayeri? I only ask because every one that I'm familiar with from the last year or two is from hybrid stock originally.

If there is does anyone have information on it?

Sean.
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1.1 BRB
1.1 Triple Het TPRS's
1.1 Amel Bloodred Corns
0.1 Abbott Okeetee Corn
0.1 Blizzard Bloodred Corn
1.1 Thayeri Kingsnakes
0.1 Reeve's Turtle
0.2 Amstaff's
1.0 Pudytat

That was just an example. Perhaps a bad one.

Several years back there was an albino thayeri but it was eaten by its mate during the first breeding attempt. There is a thread and some pics a bit further down. Joe F posted a few pics.

The albino thayeri listed for sale on the classifieds are hybrids. I have spoken to the guy who has them, they are second generation back into thayeri.
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Michelle
All things bright and beautiful,
All creatures great and small,
All things wise and wonderful:
The Lord God made them all.