Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Has anyone produced any Albinos double homozygous for Sharp and double homozygous for Kahl?

Which one would/does express dominately and which one express submissively?

Will/do they combine to create a unique combination of the two?

Will/does the phenotypical expression of the two vary determinate on the "normal looking" stock in the mix?

Anyone with experience on this?

Just curious.

jsc

dont think its been done yet. would be interesting though I dont think many people would want to try because either way it goes try selling an albino saying it has both genes most people wont believe it.

That's no different than selling a het, is it?
Eventually, it will happen regardless.
jsc

To my knowledge Brian Sharp bred a male het for kahl to the original female he imported. None of the babies produced were albino, hence he concluded that the genes were unlinked. Now, if this is all that has been done, then I worry that these results are somewhat premature. I hope that somnebody has bred a kahl albino to a sharp albino and concluded this correctly. Soes anyone know if this has actulaly been done.

Warren
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Dr Warren Booth
North Carolina State University
Department of Entomology
3309 Gardner Hall
Raleigh, NC 27695-7613

As with any double het, don't you have to breed them back to prove them out? Two separate genes, locus, allels, right?
I'll bet there's some stealth breeders out there doing it, but keeping it to themselves. Like I said, it's bound to happen randomly, sooner or later, anyway.

There's still too many other morphs to be created independently and the market has got a lot of room before each independent line is saturated, I guess.
jsc

The one real problem is figuring out what you have.

If you take Brian's statement that it was done and got nothing but normals (BTW, I heard this directly from Brian in phone conversations we've had) as true, then it's fair to say the genes are not compatible.

If you agree with the genes being incompatible, then breeding would follow standard DH rules EXCEPT all the phenotypes are merged into two possible phenotypical outcomes, albino (unknown strain) or normal poss hets for either or both. In numbers, out of a litter of 16 if punnet square exactly followed (as if that'd ever happen)...

One other assumption, that you could not tell the kahl's and sharps apart from each other and that the double albino also was indistinguishable from the rest.

1 Kahl and Sharp combined albino
2 Kahl albino, het sharp
1 Kahl albino
2 Sharp albino het Kahl
1 Sharp albino
9 normals 66$ het Kahl and 66% het sharp

But, if you couldn't tell the albino's apart, then it'd be
7 albinos some kahl, some sharp and one both
9 normals

The real problem comes in proving out and finding the double strain albino and the multitude of unknown status babies that would produce. You would have to breed each of the 7 albinos twice to prove it's status, once to a Kahl and once to a Sharp. Againif all went perfectly according the punnet with litters of 16 you would have...

48 Kahl albino het sharp
32 Kahl albino pos het sharp
16 het kahl pos het sharp
32 DH kahl/sharp
16 het sharp pos het kahl
32 sharp albino pos het kahl
48 sharp albino het kahl

All that and you've only produced and proven one kahl/sharp albino. (240 babies later)
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Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count:
24.36 BRB
19.19 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

it shouldn't be done / attempted. there is a possibility the combined albino would produce a specific awesome look. I'm just pointing out the difficulty proving what you have if you can't tell them apart. Not a task I'm willing to undertake!!!
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Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count:
24.36 BRB
19.19 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

Dave, did Brian tell you how many babies he got from the het Kahl x Sharp albino mating? Seven babies gets to the 99% probability of getting at least one baby with a Kahl albino mutant gene in addition to the Sharp mutant gene. I'd just like to know whether he got to that point or further.

Paul Hollander

Sorry Paul, dunno!!
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Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count:
24.36 BRB
19.19 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

not to mention if you had an albino trying to prove it out you might have a kahl het sharp or a sharp het kahl making it even more difficult to prove it depending on the size of the clutch and the luck of the draw. Ive seen het to het get almost 50% split on the babies.

It might be worth a shot but in my honest opinion it isnt. with the wide range of the kahl strain now it is much different from the original one. I mean look at some of the kahl strain on the market today some are pale white as babies others are flushed with pinks/reds. Im not talking about the corals.

I just think its a waste of time trying to prove it out. In the end youll have albinos one strain or the other.

Thanks for the discussion. Very interesting.
jsc

Great post, Dave. I was hoping to spur on some similar, specific genetics discussisons in the other forum, but I failed
miserably due to my poor communication skills.

Maybe another possibility is that the combination of homo for both strains could kill the snake.?? That would really mess things up!
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Thanks,
Ed

You can only assume that the genes are not identical if the breeding was carried out multiple times in order to rule out the possibility that the breedign resulted in hets. Of course, based on mendelian inheritance patterns, we would have expected the litter to be equally split between albinos and hets if identical, however litters have been produced from homo to het for other traits and resulted in nothing but hets due to the independance of each segregation event.
My questions are:
1) how many times did Brian try the albino to kahl het breeding?
2) has anyone else tried this?
3) has anyone tried an albino kahl to an albino sharp?

Warren
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Dr Warren Booth
North Carolina State University
Department of Entomology
3309 Gardner Hall
Raleigh, NC 27695-7613