Reptile & Amphibian Forums

So, apparently Texas has blacklisted not only Ornate box turtles, but also Eastern box turtles? I understand that Three-toes and even Gulf Coast box turtles occur in Texas, but they have apparently not made any distinctions between them and Terrapene carolina carolina or bauri, or mexicana for that matter.

Basically, that means Texans cannot purchase or sell Florida or Eastern box turtles anymore, and that they can only keep up to 6. The laws are exactly the same for indigenous ornate, desert, three-toed, and gulf coast box turtles in Texas.

Is this a technicality due to the fact that they didn't specify the subspecies, or do they really want to outlaw people in Texas who are breeding non-native box turtles?

I know a handful of people in Texas that have been captive breeding Florida box turtles since the 80's. They are going to be very upset.

I just thought that this was curious. I know that there are some very strong opinions on both sides of this issue. I guess I am just looking for clarification from those of you who are impacted by this or know a lot about it. Please don't make me regret posting this by replying with insane and angry ramblings.

Was the ban on non-native box turtles intentional?

Thanks!

None of it makes sense to me Ken.
It seems like a bunch of clueless people in the whacky capital are just making up stuff as they go along willy-nilly for ??
I don't know what reason.
To regulate everyone else's lives for no apparent reason other than it makes them feel good to throw their weight around?

I often see people wearing T-shirts that say "Keep Austin Weird" and I think yeah, please do. Keep it there then leave me and the rest of us in the west alone.
All our relatives who live in Austin wonder why we still want to live in the desert and not join them all there.
Well gee, take a wild guess.....
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PHRatz

btw I've been reading the updates reported by Jeff Barringer on this site, none of what TP&W is doing makes any sense at all to me.
Since there's supposed to be a public meeting next week maybe somebody will find some sense then?
I kind of doubt it.
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PHRatz

I understand your frustrations, Ratz. I was able to find those updates that you were talking about, and was able to learn that the banning of non-native box turtles was in fact incidental. They didn't specify sub-species and just listed Terrapene carolina. It sounds as if these people aren't very knowledgeable. Or else, they are pretending.

Our politicians accross the Country are facing enormous pressures from groups such as the Humane Society, whose ultimate agenda is the banning of ALL pet exotics. I've read their mission statements, and they plan to accomplish this in small increments...small laws that will gradually increase restrictions.

I have heard about Austin, and I feel your pain. I lived in the city of Charlotte for a time. We affectionately referred to it as the "Peoples' Republic of Mecklenburg(County)"...all of the charm of the North with the efficiency of the South...hehehe.

Does this impact your rats at all?

Thanks for replying.

Yeah what they both said, I hear ya both. The positive thing about laws that are not well thought out and do not make any sense is that they are usually not followed and more importantly not inforced. Now I'm positively not promoting breaking the law, it's just how things work out sometimes. If you think those laws a wacky, you should look at some of the others that have passed over history. Just because a few extremist manipulate things for their own agenda doesn't mean the rest of us including the law enforcers are going to pay any mind to them, ultimately the majority thinking will rule. A lot of reptiles and amphibians best hope of not becoming exstict is captive breeding programs, because the human population will continue to expand and we positively will continue to destroy habitat. Laws inhibiting captive propigation is not protection, it is instead a nail in the coffin.
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1.0 pastel ball python
0.1 mojave ball python
0.1 normal ball python
0.2 3-toed box turtles
2.3 eastern box turtles
0.0.5 3-striped mud turtle
1.0 northern diamondback terrapin
2.1 tiger salamander
1.1 red-sided garter
1.0 anerythristic red-sided garter
1.1 Iowa snow plains garter
1.1 Het butter stripe cornsnake
0.1 anerythristic motley cornsnake
1.1 Blue garter (Puget Sound)

The original intention of the new law was to curb the commercial wild collection of Box turtles, triunguis, o.luteola, and o. ornata. Many talks have gone back and forth about the creation of a box turtle breeders permit. As it stands, TPWD has requested that we breeders hold off on selling cb box turtles that will be born after the law passed
(oct 21?)so that they can come up with that type of permit. In many public meetings between herp societies and Tpwd last year, they were faced with concerned breeders of all types of box turtles. I personally have done well with all 3 native types of box turtles. I can hold the offspring until a permit is created if it is within a reasonable time. I would suggest your friends contact the wildlife diversity folks and ask about the progression of that permitting system. And remember to be kind...we really want to keep this freedom. Captive breeding can help to satisfy the market as well as to curb black market collection of dwindling populations. The wildlife diversity group has been more than willing to look at ideas from breeders about box turtle breeding continuing in Texas.

Hope this helps

That does help, and is very imformative as well. Let me say, I wholeheartedly agree with your opinion and approach. TACT is the operative word in situations such as these. Thank you.

luteola...

Sounds resonable
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1.0 pastel ball python
0.1 mojave ball python
0.1 normal ball python
0.2 3-toed box turtles
2.3 eastern box turtles
0.0.5 3-striped mud turtle
1.0 northern diamondback terrapin
2.1 tiger salamander
1.1 red-sided garter
1.0 anerythristic red-sided garter
1.1 Iowa snow plains garter
1.1 Het butter stripe cornsnake
0.1 anerythristic motley cornsnake
1.1 Blue garter (Puget Sound)

Just spoke to Matt Wagner, Program Director, Wildlife diversity for tpwd about the box turtle breeder permit. They are developing a user group, made up of Texans (pet shop owners, hobbyists, breeders, brokers, dealers, turtle farms, turtle owners). I would suggest getting in touch with wildlife diversity to be a part of this group to give imput on implementation or a breeder permit 1 800 792 1112 ext 4481.
As far as protected types, only native turtles listed on the black list by genus & species are protected. So bauri, carolina carolina, and gulf coasts(which are not recognized by Texas as being native), are not protected by the rule. He says that in the case of an inspection, a receipt for purchase from another state or donation from another state would help officers distinguish the animals' origin. There is no protection for those not indiginous to the state of Texas.
Any purchases from another state of black listed turtles must be accompanied by a temporary import permit that is made available by the department within 24 hrs of your purchase(see subchapter O , rule 65.327, (b), (1), (D), (iii). in Texas administative code regs.)

This info should clarify some of your questions.

I say thank goodness Texas has begun to protect their wild turtles. I know many Texans have worked long and hard to get these regulations. A newspaper article came out some months ago that noted a decline in turtles from people collecting them for the food market. Yes, here in America! That's the kind of thing that needs to be stopped.

I'm glad to hear breeding will be allowed by permit. If would be nice if we wouldn't need regs such as these, but with population growth, sprawl, greed and cruelty, there needs to be something in place so abusers can be punished. I don't think pet hobbyists have to worry, but I have been wrong before!

Tess

I had heard about the promises, but I am still skeptical. I have learned that things need to be spelled out clearly in black and white. They need to specify the subspecies in these regulations!

I enforce regulations in this same category(State level) as my job. Trust me, they must be very, very specific in order to effectively be enforced.

I really appreciate your input. I just wish that all of these promised amendments would have been included in the original regulations. Then, there would be no question.

I have passed your great information on to my acquaintances. Thanks again!

A lot of this sounds similar to the rules we have here in Michigan. The DNR says they have no "interest" in regulating the pet trade. However, if you have a box turtle (any subspecies) or any other turtle that is native or resembles a native species you better have documentation of legal descriptive acquisition from a licensed CB breeder/retailer or legal outstate purchase/adoption. You must keep this information for the life of the turtle and be ready to produce it upon demand to ANY DNR officer, etc........

I wanted to adopt an Eastern a while back to add to my collection. So I contacted the head DNR officer and saved a copy of his email. I started a Booklet on my current 3 subspecies noting the name of the person who gave (none of mime were purchased) the animal to me, approx. date, and SLC measurements, weight and other stasts, common and scientific names for the subspecies, illnesses and approx dates of vet (names of vets too) visits as I could recall them. I also have a collection of dated photos that I have included of each animal to back up my claim of legal acquisition. However, none of my animals (presently) are native so I can't get a permit for keeping them (ironically). But none of this is a sure guarantee that if a DNR officer made a mistake that he couldn't confiscate them from me. One saving grace is that as a science teacher, who uses animals in the classroom it would be a highly unpopular move that WOULD create a lot of controversy and BAD PR.

Ironically I can adopt any species of boxie from an official adoption group (outstate) and keep it as long as I retain the papers certifying this. If I chose to adopt an Eastern I could then also apply for a permit within the state to keep it, though it still wouldn’t be required if it came documented from outstate.

I think the only fool proof way to protect my 3 boxies is to surrender them to an outstate reptile rescue with the understanding that I would immediately adopt them back with their certification to prove that these aren’t
a) michigan native boxies
or
b) acquired illegally by me.

While this seems a bit extreme, I HAVE considered it. My ornate I’ve had since 1989 and her former keeper had her since 1984.

I agree that protecting our native turtles is a good idea & is something that needed to be done a long time ago. I'm all for that... it's what's going on now that upsets me.

This blacklist that came about without any one knowing about it until they implemented it makes it look like an agency running amuck.

Ken my rats are Rattus norvegicus, I don't see them on the list. Like Mus musculus, they aren't indiginous to this state so there's no reason to put them on the list. Of course there's a lot of snakes, frogs, lizards that shouldn't be there either.
Hopefully once the meeting of the 7th takes place there'll be some changes.
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PHRatz

>>
>>This blacklist that came about without any one knowing about it until they implemented it makes it look like an agency running amuck.
>>
>>Ken my rats are Rattus norvegicus, I don't see them on the list. Like Mus musculus, they aren't indiginous to this state so there's no reason to put them on the list. Of course there's a lot of snakes, frogs, lizards that shouldn't be there either.
>>Hopefully once the meeting of the 7th takes place there'll be some changes.
>>-----
>>PHRatz

The way the law is worded.... if it's NOT specifically spelled out as being on the WHITE list, then you must consider it to be on the BLACK list even if it's NOT actually written down on the black list. There is a clause regarding the black list that gives the authorities a HUGE loophole to use against people that states:

"This prohibition on commercial activity includes, but is not limited to, the following species:"

So if people wanted to get technical (because Texas lawmakers are being idiots and putting NON-INDIGENOUS animals on the black list), then even cats, dogs, pet birds, horses, etc. are in fact black-listed since they are no more native to this country as house mice are (which are specifically listed on the black list).::: roll eyes:::
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PHWyvern

>>The way the law is worded.... if it's NOT specifically spelled out as being on the WHITE list, then you must consider it to be on the BLACK list even if it's NOT actually written down on the black list. There is a clause regarding the black list that gives the authorities a HUGE loophole to use against people that states:
>>
>>"This prohibition on commercial activity includes, but is not limited to, the following species:"
>>

So my personal current loophole would lie in the fact that there is no commercial actitivty going on here. I don't breed anything.
However in Lubbock where commercial activity is going on, where I finally for the first time in 12 years bought fancy rats that are NOT sick... that breeder may have to stop.
Great just great

>>
>>So if people wanted to get technical (because Texas lawmakers are being idiots and putting NON-INDIGENOUS animals on the black list), then even cats, dogs, pet birds, horses, etc. are in fact black-listed since they are no more native to this country as house mice are (which are specifically listed on the black list).::: roll eyes:::

Frustrating!!!
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PHRatz

>>
>>So my personal current loophole would lie in the fact that there is no commercial actitivty going on here. I don't breed anything.

If you have more than 6 rats, then you would still be in violation of the black list (only up to 6 allowed). And if you wanted to acquire further rats, they would not be allowed to be purchased/sold/bartered/traded because that would be commercial activity - but I believe you could go hunt down a wild rat to keep as long as you limited yourself to 6 and it was done on private property (you remember they passed that law earlier in the year making it illegal to hunt/kill/capture/whatever any animal -including invertebrates- from a public right of way/road.)
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PHWyvern

Right now I have only 5 rats, have plans to adopt a couple who are living at the college right now.
Not breeding them though, I have only females these days. Never mind they aren't native to this state or this country being NORWAY rats....

This is what led to our imaginary breeding operation:

Our neighbors who believe every urban legend that was ever invented have told me several times that "kingsnakes & rattlesnakes is breedin' so now ya cain't tayall which 'uns is poisnous & which 'uns ain't."
Now they have a new story. "Bullsnakes & rattlesnakes is breedin' "
that woman knowed it's true, her cousin caught one & took it to a xpert who confirmed it. "They look jist lack a reglar bullsnake but ya opin up thayat mouth & therre's fangs in therre."
We've decided we're gonna breed rattlesnakes with bats so we kin tayall them 'bout them flyin' battlesnakes, look out theys gonna git ya from the sky nayow.

Oy I'm not joking. I have to put up with this day in & day out because they live next door & talk to me almost every time I walk out my front door.

One good thing about them.. they are the ones who rescued Hobo the box turtle from a dog's mouth.
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PHRatz

Hey guys, relax. Just stay on the lookout for any new sneak-em-in regulations.

From an e-mail converstion with Dr. Sclitter of TPWD:

"TPWD has a problem meeting the expectations of those in the pet industry who wanted all herps, especially turtles, protected on one hand and now those who after we tried to protect them, have exceptions for certain species which might be kept in captivity already. We are currently working on a breeder’s permit for those who breed and raise various species in captivity. Perhaps that will solve the problem in the end. If we have a breeder’s permit, there will still be no collecting in the wild unless one has the proper permit to do so. That is another chapter in this problem."

>>Hey guys, relax. Just stay on the lookout for any new sneak-em-in regulations.
>>
>>From an e-mail converstion with Dr. Sclitter of TPWD:
>>
>>"TPWD has a problem meeting the expectations of those in the pet industry who wanted all herps, especially turtles, protected on one hand and now those who after we tried to protect them, have exceptions for certain species which might be kept in captivity already. We are currently working on a breeder’s permit for those who breed and raise various species in captivity. Perhaps that will solve the problem in the end. If we have a breeder’s permit, there will still be no collecting in the wild unless one has the proper permit to do so. That is another chapter in this problem."

It is NOT the turtles that people are mostly up in arms about. It's about the fact that the dummies flat out banned animals at the species level (not subspecies) as well as animals that are not even NATIVE to the state and the left the black list as an open ended list (meaning if it is not specifically mentioned on the white list then it's technically on the black list even if it's not mentioned on that list). Then, their choices for animals that are native for which should be black listed or white listed had no rhyme or reason to it - no field data to support it and no public comment was given. For example: How can you really expect to be able to keep legal snakes as pets when their primary food source is itself now banned (i.e. mice/rats) ??
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PHWyvern

The mice were stated to be a mistake, I believe that will be removed. Also, I will be getting clarification on the non-native subspecies issues and such (esp. garter snakes and turtles).

Also, my current understanding is that the list simply prohibits species on the list listed by Genus and species name, as well as their native subspecies; therefore, Florida boxies would be legal, and you might want to have docs JIC.

Don't hold me by it, but that is the gist I am getting. Here is a copy of my and email conversation w/ Dr. Schlitter from TPWD, hopefully it will help clear things up.

From Dr. Schlitter:

1). The list of species prohibited from sale emanated from a demand made at a commission meeting by counsel representing the pet industry. They demanded a list of all animals not currently included on other lists, namely the list of species affected by the commercial dealer’s permit, federal and state T&E list, game species, furbearer species, exempted species, etc. Such a list of all other animals occurring in Texas would have run to about 34,000 species of macroscopic invertebrate and vertebrate animals. The list of macroscopic invertebrate animals would include all aquatic and terrestrial insects, arachnids, mollusks, and other related groups. The invertebrate animal list would have had about 33,000 species, most listed by only their scientific names. That demand was subsequently reduced to a list of all species of mammals, amphibians and reptiles occurring in the state that were not on any other lists. This was a demand from the pet industry’s representative counsel.

3). Since E. gutatta is not now considered indigenous to Texas it cannot be considered Nongame Wildlife as defined in the TPWD regulations. This taxon sensu lato will be removed from the list of species prohibited for sale at the earliest possible date. In the meantime, it is not a violation to possess and sell this species.

My response:

1) May I ask for a list of companies and individuals who were represented in this counsel? Which commission meeting did this take place? What counsel was this proposed by? Simply a counsel of the pet industry is a bit vague. Was Jeff Barringer on said counsel? What reasoning does this counsel cite to back this movement? Does the department create such lists to please them without research, or have you already done comprehensive research on each species to back their listing? If such research was done, I would think public access to view such information would be proper.

*Those asterisked identify species I keep, have kept, or intended to keep in the near future more than six of for either recreational or legal commercial use. Those listed are commonly bred, collected, and kept commercially by Texans legally throughout the state, as well as regionally.

His reply:

1)The demand was made during testimony by three lawyers who claimed to represent the pet industry during the May TPWD commission meeting. The minutes of that commission meeting are available on the TPWD web site. Threats of lawsuits from lawyers will get TPWD’s attention.

You must understand that none of this was done from our initiative but was a result of citizen insistences from various groups. If you petition the Commission as a citizen and the Commission accepts the petition and asks TPWD staff for action, we act. You have that right to submit a petition for some action at any time. I encourage you to do so if you have issues on these matters. Your petition will be added to the agenda of a future Commission meeting.

we should trust that a government agency is going to swiftly, effeciently, and correctly do anything because.....?
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PHRatz

>>The mice were stated to be a mistake, I believe that will be removed. Also, I will be getting clarification on the non-native subspecies issues and such (esp. garter snakes and turtles).
>>
>>Also, my current understanding is that the list simply prohibits species on the list listed by Genus and species name, as well as their native subspecies; therefore, Florida boxies would be legal, and you might want to have docs JIC.
>>

yeah, they keep saying it was all "a mistake" ( like with the corn snake). None of it would have been a mistake had they followed the proper procedures in creating and passing these laws with all of the proper oversite controls in place to prevent chaotic disasters such as this.

Eastern Box turtles (T. carolina) are listed on the black list at the species level so even if Florida boxies (T. carolina bauri) is not native in texas - they are in fact banned in texas no matter what that official person has told you. That is exactly how the law is clearly written in this case.

When something is listed at the species level and not at the subspecies level then the LETTER OF THE LAW is what takes priority - not someone's perceived intent. ALL animals within the species are banned - not just the ones native to the state. Even if you are cajoled into believing otherwise by whoever is telling you not to worry -- it's the letter of the law that prevails over some silly lawmaker's actual intent or belief. If they really intended to protect only the native box turtle species then they would have had the brains to set the law up at the subspecies level. They knew what they were doing and that was to blind side the entire hobby in the state of Texas by sneaking things through and then trying to verbally placate people afterwards knowing that it is all lies because it's not intent that counts - it's the written law that counts.

Trust me I know this. I've gone through something similar in my own state when back in the early 90's I had to stop keeping non-native tiger salamanders as pets because the state put a ban on A. tigrinium (in order to protect the native eastern tiger) and of course (duh) they did not differentiate between the subspecies under A. tigrinium. And when questioned on that I even got one person to admit they did it that way so THEY wouldn't have to be bothered in trying to enforce the law when it came to determining if what you have is really the eastern tiger or some other subspecies of tiger. The only saving grace is that within the past few years, I have found out that there have been some taxonomic changes to tiger salamanders and eastern tigers are now the only tiger under A. tigrinium - all the others have been shifted over to different species. So there is that legal loop hole I have on my side that I can use if in the future I decided I wanted to keep tigers again and they try to confront me on it.
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PHWyvern

Ratz: We don't That's why we continually badger or threaten with lawsuits.

You know, the usual political backflips... Lol

Wyvern: If anyone feels that this listing by Species is incorrect (as I do), E-mail them constantly with exactly what you said. They will change it to be more specific if you badger them enough. If all else fails, we pool some $ and hire a lawyer. He did say law suits get TPWD's attention.

Personally I would like a herp breeder's permit system, that was only needed if an animal was on the black list. This would allow the department to "keep track" of #'s bred, sold, etc. I would be all for a nongame breeder's permit that would allow you to sell to anyone actually, without the whole non-game only to dealer, dealer to anyone funny business. I would like to see herps regulated seperately from non-game species as well. Would sure be nice to use public lands, LIKE ALL OTHER HUNTERS, seeing as they treat us the same/worse.

Anyone have any bright ideas? Protest, lawyers, petitions .... ?

If this gets too involved in politics, you might want to send this thread to the Herp Law forum.

>>Ratz: We don't That's why we continually badger or threaten with lawsuits.
>>
>>You know, the usual political backflips... Lol
>>

yeah exactly lol
I've been keeping up with the law message board, it'll be interesting to read what people have to say after the big meeting tomorrow.
I'll write my letters that need to be written.
I agree some permits need to be put in place because the way it's all written at the moment it's too broad, one size doesn't fit all.
I'm not a breeder but I have handicapped critters (not more than 6 of course)
I don't like the rehabber's permit as is because the way the wording is at the moment. If you are a rehabber & you have animals that are alive & can live while handicapped but cannot be returned to the wild then you're supposed to euthanize them.
What's the point of that?
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PHRatz

Hi,

The recent laws passed in Texas were done so in an effort to protect our natural resources. Initially the law would have banned the commercial activity of all turtles in Texas. Personally I believe this would have been in the best interest of our turtles. Simply put there's not a good enough reason for me to feel comfortable with someone making a profit off our state's natural resources so that they wind up in the stomachs of people in China.

However, as a box turtle afficianado, herpetologist and herpetoculturist I have been very interested in the development pertaining to texas turtle laws. In a recent conversation I had with commissioners at the TPWD there are duiscussions to provide a permit system for captive bred box turtles in Texas.

The simple reason for establishing the law at the species level is to protect a non renewable resource from over exploitation and for the easy and fair identification for law enforcement personel.

It's about time that there were some restrictions placed on the take of Texas herps. The Asian turtle trade was well established with Texas suppliers. Also Texas has been a laundering state for wildlife illegally collected from other states (Oklahoma, Arkansas and New Mexico to name a few).

By the way, this was not a legislative move manipulated by a few extremist. It was a highly publicized event that gained lots of public support for the protection of our turtles.
This made newspaper headlines and the news. Most of the local herp societies and turtle clubs here in Texas sent out notices as did the TSA (Turtle Survival Alliance). If you missed it you weren't paying attention. This was so big that it was the first time a topic regarding reptiles was addressed before white-tailed deer. For anyone who doesn't fully catch the gravity of that statement, trust me it's huge.

I have been maintaining a long term colony of breeding box turtles for 13 years and am putting the final touches on "The Complete Box Turtle" which will be published by ECO publishing in 2008. I have put a great deal of time and investment into my turtles and will not surrender them or cease them from normal healthy interactions such as breeding just because of a recent law change. Believe me when I say that I have a considerable interest in the law regarding Texas box turtles.

They are directed exactly where they should be, towards the interest of turtles and beyond the hands of selfish interest.

The best thing you can do is be active, join a local herp club or turtle organization, get involved with your local museum or zoo and let the people involved in the legislative process know your voice.

Sincerely,

Carl J. Franklin
Biological Curator
Amphibian and Reptile Diversity Research Center
The University of Texas at Arlington Dept. of Biology
Box 19498
501 South Nedderman. Rm 337
Arlington, Tx 76019
Tel: (817) 272-3615
http://biology.uta.edu/herpetology/
www.Texasturtles.org

UT Arlington Herpetology

Does anyone have a link to the "black list" and white list so I can check this out? I have recently gotten into the Herp hobby (well, over the past year or two), and I would like to know what is and is not allowed. Also, if you have a link to the law, that would be great!

One other quick question. If I do have a FL box turtle, is that allowed or not? Since they only list at the species level, I am just curious. Also, We have both a male and female and have been blessed to have babies this past summer, is that no longer allowed. My wife is a teacher and she uses them in her class room. We are not going to sell them.

Thanks!

What makes no sense though is that if this law really is in place with the turtles well being in mind then why put REs on the white list? I is widely known that RES are a problem species so why ban all the others and leave RES out of it? I agree that something needs to be done, but banning a whole species is not the answer. It is just an example of the government doing what they do best. Screwing things up.