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I was doing some cage cleaning tonight so I got a few shots...

"Jelly" (Type II Hypomelanistic-Amelanistic) "Hybino" Floridana

"Coral" (Type I Hypomelanistic- T positive Amelanistic) "Hybino" Floridana

Lavender ( T positive Amelanistic)

Hypomelanistic Flame

2x Het Hypomelanism (Type I) and Amelanism (T Positive)
1

2

New England Strain Axanthic

Axanthic White-Sided

Thanx for looking...

~ZF
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Royal ReptileZ

Jellys are Hybinos now? Type 2 this n that?
I think it should be clear that you made these names up yourself, no one else calls these morphs by those names. I know I won't. Sorry, but this is just too much.
Tom Stevens
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TomsSnakes.com

Tom if you think about the Genes involved Jellies ARE Hybinos!

I didn't say they were Hybino Type 2 I said Type II HYPOMELANISTIC (aka Peanut butter) - Amelanistic (T- Albino)

Within Floridana there are FOUR (4)"Hybinos"

"Jellys" : PB- T negative Amelanistic

"Corals" : Hypo- T positive Amelanistic

"Peabinos" : PB- T- Positive Amelanistic

"Sunglows" : Hypo- T negative Amelanistic

"Sunglows" are the technical "Hybinos" not the Hypo-Lavs ("Corals".)

The Original mutation called "Hypo" in NOT a true hypomelanistics... it's more like/closely related to Xanthism (Increased Colored pigmentation)... the true Hypos are the "Peanut butters"

"You Guys" don't like the name CORAL... well I don't like the name "Peabino"... so I guess "WE" are even?!?!?!?

if any of "you" took the time to ask me my thoughts on these maybe it would make some sort of sense... but nooooooooooooooooooooooo from day one I've been challenged... so I'll call them what I like, WHY because I can!... have these been produced in #'s and I've decided to just confuse everyone with a new name NO! I'm not confusing ANYONE... ONLY THREE (3) of these are known to be out there... the 2nd person to pop one out doesn't call them "Hybinos" he calls them "Hypo-Lavs" because the name "Hybino" does not fit this mutation...

I was thinking into the future of Floridana morphs when things such as Hypomelanistic Blizzards pop up... those would be the "Pearls" (T negative, Axanthic, Hypomelanistic)

And when someone Finally popped out a Hypomelanistic Snow they would be "Coral Snows" (T positive, Axanthic, Hypomelanistic)...

SEE any connection?????

What confuses the hobby are:

I)Statements with no basis or fact

II)Breeders that "flip-flop" because they do not understand the mutations they work with

III)Breeders that make Claims they themselves have yet to prove

IV)Breeder that would say what ever it takes to make a sale

V)Breeder that doesn't stand by their word

VI)Breeder that gives advice but doesn't personally live by that advice...

NOT "someone" who has placed significant thought in an area of interest and kindly shares these thoughts with others that work with the same mutations...

All this negativity is getting to be pretty annoying & I'm irritated... "you guys" know how to contact me if you'd like to discuss these morphs... if "you" would not like to discuss these mutations please stop trying to undermine me on this public forum...

Thank you!

~ZF

John "Jetzen": Only Now have I Truely Understood your position...

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Comprehend better than MOST... but i'm NOT claiming to be an expert...

Though the PBs do appear to have reduced melanin there is all kinds of genetic surprizes,claiming it to be Hypo II doesnt give it justice.
And T-neg should be the only Amel and T-Pos should remain Lav.........Chris

Zenny,

The problem here is you were not the first to create any of this. Maybe if you bred something new and THEN labored for 5-6 years on a project you could name it.
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"Yeah ya told me, and ya wrote it down too. But how the hell am I supposed to remember!"

If I took the time to ask you your thoughts? How is anyone supposed to know you are about to make a post about what you personally think all these combos are and what they should be called. I have barely been on here at all lately, or on AIM for that matter, I have not had much time for it. Yes, I do not like the name Coral.........the Coral label in colubrids is linked with a Hybrid that many people are aware of.

This post basically says only you have figured all this out. It is pretty traditional for the people who are the first to create a new variant to name it themselves. Your Coral was not the first Hybino.....so it seems like you claiming yours is something different? I don't see why you should be an exception and are now the self appointed authority on all this. Some of us also think we understand all of this too. If you're going to get pissy because not everyone agrees with you, well then I guess your gonna stay irritated.

You are being as defensive and accusational as the people who don't understand that some answers to questions have changed because of different results from breeding trials that were not exactly predictable. You yourself beat the odds and produced what others called a Hybino yet you decided you call it something else? Sorry but I am just not happy with that or your post. If you wanna get all mad over it, I don't know what to say
Tom Stevens
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TomsSnakes.com

not much into them "grey"thangs but that one is a looker,,,,,,,thomas
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

Thanx man... i'm not really into them myself... but love the way they look... i purchased that guy a loooooong time ago... ended up selling it and regreted in ever since. about a month ago i was contacted by the individual i sold "him" to and he told me it was actually a female and gave him a pretty nice clutch...

Can't hold onto everything!

~Z
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Comprehend better than MOST... but i'm NOT claiming to be an expert...

Guys, I had the same arguement about 4 years ago when the EXTREME name was in its infancy with Hondurans. With NAMES I think we all have to revert back to where the ORIGINAL names came from....Cornsnakes.
Now I dont keep corns,never really did, but I like the organization and sameness of the names so people could be talking about the same apples and oranges without memorzing not only the genetics but the names behind each persons version of them. That said---
As to FLORIDA KINGS(lets KILL brooksi once and for all), red eye albino, lav eye(aka lavender) albino, hypo type 1(regular hypos because it was the first not the same as corns),hypo type 2(I really think you lose all credibility once you start talking about peanut butter and jelly), white sided,anery/axanthic(seperating lines to breeders like NE and Lemke is GOOD but lets make sure they are always compatible or else type 1 and 2 should apply). Those are the SINGLE gene lines.Sulfer is a line, white phase is a line, not a recessive gene. All I am talking about is recessive genes because THERE ARE NO DOMINANT OR CO DOM GENES IN COLUBRIDS SO PLEASE EVERYONE STOP LOOKING FOR THEM!! LOL!!
When combining genes names AGAIN should remain consistent with cornsnakes. Snow is wrongly used, but it will be easier to call them lav snows when "true" snows are available. Ghost is easy, white sided anery(what could be easier). Now if we cant be 100% certain on a gene(pb??)we have to keep an open mind. If it turns out to be the same gene that ULTRAMEL is in corns,whats wrong with that name? Lavender hybino sure beats CORAL. I think we should try to keep things as scientific as possible. As consistent as possible.
If we dont agree, we run the SAME risk of exagerration of such genes as SUPER and EXTREME. These names should be used to describe individual specimens not form new groups or the coming NEWBIES will be even more confused than the ones out there now. If there is one thing that irks me its that I have to explain SIMPLE [bleep] to every person instead of just pointing them to the 2-3 books they should read before getting into breeding to begin with. Know what I mean? Not being elitist, but I like dealing with the few people who have actually read this far without getting their feathers ruffled. I dont like the $5 tire kickers.
Please remember this guys, we all got into snakes because WE are different. We all think we are special. We all want to be VERY individual. Yet we all like alot of the same things, and most to the same degrees. The sooner we admit it and get over it and make things scientific the sooner we can stop having these simple arguements and delve into the more complex issues that are surely out there. Right?
At least you dont have people asking from what board(or this case canal)you found them. Remember we are making man made animals, and look at them the same way you look at those stupid mini pins and labradoodles. Jeff

Jeff, PBs are what they are. They're unique and they had a name coined to suit them. If this name thing bothers you, you need to include Banana Cal Kings, Tangerine Hondos, Chocolate Cal Kings and so on.
There's 2 lines of Axanthic and 1 line of Anery. The Anery may even have two lines, one compatible with Axanthic and one that is not.
PB bred to T Neg Albino made a new morph, Jellys....which is the easiest and most obvious name for people ot make the connection with PB.
I could talk your ear off about this stuff for hours, and if you ask around some people will tell you I am not kidding. I have this all straight and know what I am talking about. However I simply have been too busy to come on here and explain things as best as I can as often as I used too, and I used to discuss this stuff pretty often.
I have produced a few questionable variants and have never attatched a name to any of them, as it was too soon to do anything but speculate. I don't know how much more professional that I can get other than doing what I do and that is explain things exactly as they can be explained without coining a name for every little variation within a morph.
You know in one case, that for example the Blaze Goini X Hypo Brooksi, or even any Goini X Hypo Brooksi. They have no name....we call them crosses. I think it should stay that way. I mess with Corns a bit. I worked for Creamsicle Reverse Okeetees. I produced some that resembled line bred ones that took others an extra generation or two longer than mine took. Still, my ads say Creamsicle X Reverse Okeetees. Some of us were thinking that the name Jelly, and also PB was a very efficient way to show two new morphs and an easy way to remember how it came to be. Even things like Sulfur, Sulfur Lavs, Sulfur Snows, T neg Albinos are uncommon and may still hold a few surprises....maybe not. In the meantime we should keep it simple, keep it obvious. If coining descriptive names makes it easier so be it. However adding a new name to a morph that already had a name.......well that is going to confuse people.
Things are not always as easy as they should be. Lavender X Hypo made the first Hybino. It should stay that way. It will probably stay that way wether we want it too or not, just like the true Snows and Ghost cause a little confusion in Bullsnakes. Or Ghost Ball Pythons, Ghost Cal Kings. The world is an imperfect place.
I am happy that people are interested in Brooksi. Florida Kings is fine by me too.........but still I am addicted to calling them Brooksi. The bottom line is there's probably only 20 regular posters on this forum, and there's god knows how many people who don't even come read posts on here. Even if WE...meaning the regulars all agred about names being assigned to morphs, well that's just us and who knows how accepted it is going to be in the hobby as a whole. We can not have people naming morphs if they did not produce them first. Again, the name Peanut Butter was decided over a vote and still some think it is a silly name and get all bothered over it. Those people usually hate morphs anyway. Anyone who thinks this is just another simple morph is really way behind on things and should stick with Corns or whatever they're comparing this too. One of the reasons things got so confusing with the PBs is the pushy, aggressive attacks on the snake....mostly made by people who do not work with them or even like Florida Kings period. A few of them seem to have left the hobby behind, good riddance. I am getting sucked back into this nonsense and I have better things to do with my time than argue. It is not your particular post that bothers me at all, but I am just trying to show you a few reasons why things are the way they are for now. I hope you understand
Tom Stevens
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TomsSnakes.com

Voted on or not....if the GENE turns out to be the SAME gene that is affecting corns as ULTRAMEL why not use it? I understand the idea of PB(and jelly,lol)and fight against anthropormorphism(sp?)so chocolate, tangerine, or EXTREME(capitalized or not)are subjective. I like objective. Simple,too,J

Jeff, what wrong with the term EXTREME in hondurans? it was labled by Mike Falcon with help from Terry and Myself. It seperated it from the regular hypo line (loves line and bruce millers line) and also seperated it from Osbournes super line.
You have always claimed it was a t albino and I still don't understand that? just because it has purpleish bands and has ruby eyes? they never get tipping and a t albino still tipps up? its a hypo animal at its extreme.
anyway, I know this is about the brooksi and I am just holding out for Tea Bag to produce a goober morph then I am on board.LOL.....

all good stuff,

Shannon

Shannon, how are you? Whats the big new job that is causing commotion? Anyways--
I dont get too caught up in any one snake or morph when it comes to this discussion. I see the way individual genes affect colubrids. There seem to be only a few different expressed single genes.(red albino,lav albino,multiple hypo,multiple anery/axanthic,white side,patternless,scaleless,etc) The more inbred(speaking of all captive animals)the more different expressed genes.
Now I dont know why its so hard to accept that genes fall into predictable catagories. With all the evidence we have in each cb species,we are getting more and more morphs but they are almost all predictable. Now it is strange that the lavender gene was only recently found in corns. And it is interesting the further we in/interbreed the more different things we get, but I always choose that ASPERGERS(Arcum's??) RAZOR--if you choose between 2 different explanations the simpler one is more often true. I am totally paraphrasing, but even if the gene originated within the hypo line why cant you step back and see it for what it is. It will be VERY difficult(if not impossible)to seperate them out because the variability within milks will lead to serious overlaps......but I still contend that the REALLY NICE ones may very well be hypo lavenders....something that noone has tried to prove. I would think it would be beneficial($$)to you or someone that has alot of the nicer EXTREMES, and I know you know enough about genetics to figure it out.
Shannon, I agree with you that both hypos and extremes are variable. But until a SEPERATE LINE of lavender albinos come to light...which HAS to happen give the state of in/interbreeding...I think it is safe to assume this is that lavender. Now I know I lost my arguement with NAMES, but not everyone is going to come up with brand new morphs out of nowhere like Mr Applegate, Mr Kahl,and others. So if you agree that they are lavender albinos I will agree to call em extremes,lol. Always a good discussion, all my best with your new opportunity and make sure not to get rid of your NA stuff without contacting me first! Thanks,Jeff

PB got the popular vote, not the electoral vote! =0)
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B

"As to FLORIDA KINGS(lets KILL brooksi once and for all)"

since it's not a taxomically valid subspecies it would be much easier to just call them the all-South-Florida ancestored, high band-numbered, pale-bellied with speckled interband juveniles ontogentically lightening phase getula

You are right Lindsay. Lets do away with "Brooks". I want to call them Floida kings. Opps see that hard for me to even type it.

Hey I think smoking is bad and i smoke. I want to quit that habit to. Maybe I should check into some brooksi anonoymous 12-step program. You should start one up. I know me and Tom will be the ones to cry at every meeting.
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"Yeah ya told me, and ya wrote it down too. But how the hell am I supposed to remember!"

This is gonna sound funny and even counterproductive. But, I agree with you and I agree with the others as well.

If you remember, recently I had a hub hub discussion on thayeri no longer representing natural thayeri. My oponents used scientific jargon to support their case. Such as genotype and later phenotype. The problem is, what these lines are has nothing to do with THAT TYPE of science. Its much like you said, funny dog morphs. In fact, all dog types are captive morphs. Started with wild doglike ancestoral species. But no longer resemble those species in any way. Yet, they are from that genotype. Or a group of genotypes.

So it is what it is, Its a hobby of creating unnatural lines, unnatural means, it would not be successfull in nature and has not established a population. Of course in nature some genetic morphs are successful, such as Black hognose, Blackkings, Black coachwhips, Black argentine hognose, etc. With those, the black morphs complete with normals morphs, side by side.

But here that is not the case. Its making eye candy for our own personal enjoyment. And yes, genetics has something to do with it. So the science of genetics is more appropriate the biologial nonmenclature.

So yes, they should use any names they want as they are no longer "kings" or "corns" they are captive races that represent what the owner/buyer/seller wants to see/buy/sell.

The term pedigree is more accurate here, as it refers to a FAMILY line, or race, not a species. Its applied to dogs as they are not of different species, but of different races or pedigrees.

So yes, this has left of the world of science as far as what species they are, and are into the world of pedigrees.

AS you know, it already INCLUDES pedigrees of crosses and hybrids.

In my discussion I stated that I did not see any difference between crosses, hybrids and extreme morphs. They all do not represent nature in any way. It really does not matter what genes or genotypes. As they are using those terms very inapproiately. Sorry for my normal poor spelling, If I tried to correct that, I would be here all day and I do not have the time for that. Cheers

Zenny. I'm quite sure the photos of your incredibly beautiful snakes are well-recieved by most forum readers. I'm not sure most people, perhaps just hobbyists like me who just enjoy having a snake or two as pets, are so concerned about these labels based on all the technical aspects involved in the breeding of that particular snake. I just can't follow it or understand it, and am not really interested in the genetics and all of that although I understand how important it is and the hard work and research that must be involved. Obviously this is serious business to some folks out there on this forum, who could probably write books on the subject of Brooksi and other snakes, and based on what I've read here on the forum they just may have.

I just agree with your suggestion that when it comes to complaints or others taking issue with what you or another breeder is labeling a brooksi, consideraton should be given toward taking a better approach such as personal emails, phone calls, etc. to address the matter. Developing a continuous thread of negativity on this otherwise positive, relaxed and enjoyable kingsnake forum will most likely turn off the average reader who tunes in to learn and appreciate the running dialogue of questions, comments, photos, etc. They just may not come back basically due to a few no-it-alls taking over and that would be a shame. Thanks again, and good luck with your collection. Jim

Hey Jim, i started my replies with "I think it should be clear that you made these names up yourself, no one else calls these morphs by those names. I know I won't. Sorry, but this is just too much."

No one calls Jellies Hybinos. No one would call his Hybino a Coral and he should make that clear these names are of his doing. Peanut Butter was voted on, that was the name that won the honor. A new morph created by it was kept simple by keeping along the lines of the PBs name, which 99 out of 100 people will probably follow up PB with Jelly.

To call a PB a Hypo is a downplay. It is much more than that. Names stick........both good ones and bad ones. I consider Zenny a friend but I do not agree with some of this and don't have time to argue over it too much right now. If he wants to get mad and !!!!!!!!! at me. That's what he will do, but I'd like to think that others who read this forum will consider what some other Brooksi breeders think about the name game too.
Tom Stevens
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TomsSnakes.com

this has nothing to do with current conversation but...

when you find the penultimate morph, the one that everyone must have, and is addicted to, you should name it the "morphine" morph.

I suspect some DEA agents will take notice when they see "morphine" for sale on the Kingsnake classifieds - lol
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http://www.hcu-tx.org

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“There is a grandeur in this view of life, with its several powers, having been originally breathed into a few forms or into one; and that whilst this planet has gone on cycling according to the fixed laws of gravity, from so simple a beginning endless forms most beautiful and most wonderful have been, and are being, evolved.” -C. Darwin, 1859

Natural Selection Reptiles

Nice website. The section on genetics is impressive and I guess I should give a another read (heavy stuff). Your snake photos and the colors on some of them are outstanding. Nice job!

Many thanks. Like all things, its a work in progress. The genetics page took a long time, but its what I do so wanted it to be thorough.

Thanks again,
Vinny
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“There is a grandeur in this view of life, with its several powers, having been originally breathed into a few forms or into one; and that whilst this planet has gone on cycling according to the fixed laws of gravity, from so simple a beginning endless forms most beautiful and most wonderful have been, and are being, evolved.” -C. Darwin, 1859

Natural Selection Reptiles

Tom, you're probably right about readers like me who don't quite grasp the genetics discussion, we'll keep coming back each day to see what's posted, ask questions, learn from guys like you and Zenny and Bluerosy and the many others who frequent this forum, regardless of a squabble now and then. I recognize and accept there always going to be some degree of controversy and difference of opinion on certain technical aspects involved in breeding and genetic issues, like appropriate and correct labeling. Maybe breeders of other species go through the same issues, and I guess it helps to try and get on the same page for future's sake of the type of species being bred and sold. Just way out of my league so please keep up the great work and take it easy.....I appreciate all you do and have done for the kingsnake.com forum and the hobby overall. Thanks, Jim

Took me a while to take these pix, crop a few, upload them, then post... so i'm glad at least one person took the time out to appreciate the beauty of the snakes...

thanx again...

~Z
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Comprehend better than MOST... but i'm NOT claiming to be an expert...

To the "Negativity"...

I've said what I need to say and based it on Facts... I will consider all which was said about the "Hypo-Lavs" ... end of story

To the individual who said maybe when I spend a few years working on a project and pop something new I can name it what I like, you ARE correct... but is it really about the naming or is it really about what they truly are? Using improper/incorrect names do significant damage as well...

I suggested to you SEVERAL times a few pairings that would prove/disprove/ shed light on the "Peanut Butter" mutation... your exact words to me were "i have other projects in mind" ... how do we move forward if we don't understand the basics (the key ingredient is the PB... why is that... what is it?)

Some see the "Peanut butter" mutation as some genetic key... that has yet to be proven... what occurs with the T- is spectacular but not as spectacular as some of "Us" think... The "PB" mutation is a hypomelanistic mutation, accept it... or don't... it is what it is... it does not follow traditional "genetic rules" but it is still a hypomelanistic mutation...

Tom, you're My buddy... we talk all the time... i think my aggravation got the best of me... i'm done with the back and fourth on this forum... too time consuming and we both know we've got much better things to do. You are correct... i am the only one calling the jellies a hybino,but Technically they are.

"Sunglows" : Hypo- T negative Amelanistic

If Axanthic and Anery are two completely different genes...

T(neg)-Anery

Some people are looking on the surface, I'm looking beyond the surface... but what's the point in sharing?

~ZF
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Comprehend better than MOST... but i'm NOT claiming to be an expert...

What do the F1s of a PB x Tneg cross give you? A phenotypically normal double het or a jelly? If they make jelly than I agree with jeff that they are probably like ultramel, but if not then the ultramel tag does not apply.

Same goes for PB x Tplus, are they normal looking or are the f1s peabino?

What about Tplus X Tneg, are they normal looking or somethign else.

Just trying to understand the genetics here.

Best,
Vinny
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“There is a grandeur in this view of life, with its several powers, having been originally breathed into a few forms or into one; and that whilst this planet has gone on cycling according to the fixed laws of gravity, from so simple a beginning endless forms most beautiful and most wonderful have been, and are being, evolved.” -C. Darwin, 1859

Natural Selection Reptiles

When PB was bred to T (neg) Amel 99% of the clutch was a new 2x mutation... both times the "Jellies" were produced a Normal non-visual mutation was hatched as well (i have one of them...)

When PB is bred to T (pos) Amel or any other mutation other than T (neg) 100% of the clutch are normal 2x hets

When T (neg) is bred to T (pos) 100% of the clutch are 2x hets

While what occurs with PB x T (neg) is most similar to what occurs in the Ultra/Ultramel corns... there is still the Normal/Non-Morph variant...

My plan is to breed the Jelly x the Non-morph sibling... from that pairing i will know if the non-morph is a carrier of both genes or just a normal bi-product of PB X T (neg)

Hope that all made sense...

~ZF
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Comprehend better than MOST... but i'm NOT claiming to be an expert...

Thanks it all made great sense. Same deal as the ultrmels.

But this is just cool:
>>When PB was bred to T (neg) Amel 99% of the clutch was a new 2x mutation... both >>times the "Jellies" were produced a Normal non-visual mutation was hatched as well >>(i have one of them...)

Can wait to see what the backcross looks like. I have heard of similar things is other snakes. Albinos throwing normals. My guess is that one allele back mutated making a normal copy. If so, then when you backcross a jelly to one of the "normal" looking offspring you will get the same results as a jellyXhet. which kind depends on if the PB allele corrected itself or if the Tneg allele corrected itself. Just some speculation though

Thanks for the info,
Vinny

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“There is a grandeur in this view of life, with its several powers, having been originally breathed into a few forms or into one; and that whilst this planet has gone on cycling according to the fixed laws of gravity, from so simple a beginning endless forms most beautiful and most wonderful have been, and are being, evolved.” -C. Darwin, 1859

Natural Selection Reptiles

Its not like the ultramale in corns.

First I think that normal looking snake Zenny got from me is actually a Jelly. Not a normal.

I bred a Jelly to a DH het PBxWS I got a Pewter and a Whiteseded. The Pewter has pitch black eyes and no red or yellows. Not what a super form should look like.

Its hard to see from the pic but when I gave Zenny that normal it looked different from any normal het floridana I have ever seen. Then if you look at the black marks they appear lavender and not black as in the hypos. This lone snake could also have been a result of retained sperm from previous breeding the season before.

I did breed the PB to other traits and got hets. While it seems the Peanut Butter shares a single locus on an allele with the T negative I beleive it does more.

Next year (2008)I will prove out many of these questions on the Peanut Butter gene. In the meantime all is just speculation. I wouldn't jump on the Ultramel bandwagon so quicly. This Peanut Butter gene seems to be in a class of its own and not comparable to anything we have yet seen.

Some suggested breedings are:

PB to Jelly
Jelly to jelly
Jelly to T neg
Pewter to Jelly
Pewter to PB
Pewter to T negative
Pewter back to the Double Het PB X WS mother.

I think after that we will see a little more of what the PB gene is doing. I have done some other breedings that I have not mentioned involving the PB and got some surprising results. But for now I would rather keep that under wraps until more can be proven out with the above breedings.

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"Yeah ya told me, and ya wrote it down too. But how the hell am I supposed to remember!"

So this is confusing:
>>I bred a Jelly to a DH het PBxWS I got a Pewter and a Whiteseded. The Pewter has >>pitch black eyes and no red or yellows. Not what a super form should look like.

If jelly is a combination of 1 PB allele and 1 tneg allele at the same locus then from a jelly X PB you would expect 25% het jelly, 25% het PB, 25% jelly and 25% PB (all of which are 50% het WS).

So where did the WS and the pewter come from? Your jelly must be het WS. But that still does not tell us about pewter??? Has anyone produced a double homoZ PB and anery/axanthic? The red had to be lost some where. The only thing I can imagine is that both the jelly and the het PBxWS are also het for anery/axantic. Do you know the background on this pair.

Also, supers result from incompletly (sometimes called co-)dominant traits. What do you mean by the super from?

Man, these genetics are a mess.
Vinny
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“There is a grandeur in this view of life, with its several powers, having been originally breathed into a few forms or into one; and that whilst this planet has gone on cycling according to the fixed laws of gravity, from so simple a beginning endless forms most beautiful and most wonderful have been, and are being, evolved.” -C. Darwin, 1859

Natural Selection Reptiles

trust me on this. I have been working with the same brooks lines for many many years. There is NO whitesided in the PB or the T-negative line.

The problem here with the PB is everyone is trying to fit into a little box. The PB is outside of that box of thinking. Well see what the PB traits will produce next year.
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"Yeah ya told me, and ya wrote it down too. But how the hell am I supposed to remember!"

It will be cool to see what new PB morphs look like.

But, there is no outside of the box thinking required. PB is recessive to the wildtype allele and incompletly dominant to the Tneg. Thats it. There are only three kinds of inhertitence for one gene traits: recessive, incomplete dominance and codominance.

There is no reason to beleive that PB is anything magic. Cool, yes. Some new kind of inheritance that biology has missed for the last 150 years no.

Best,
Vinny
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“There is a grandeur in this view of life, with its several powers, having been originally breathed into a few forms or into one; and that whilst this planet has gone on cycling according to the fixed laws of gravity, from so simple a beginning endless forms most beautiful and most wonderful have been, and are being, evolved.” -C. Darwin, 1859

Natural Selection Reptiles

You know this is why I only take so much time trying to explain things. People like yourself see pictures of snakes that look unlike any other morphs and if there's not a 1+2=3 equation for it you make smart comments.
Do you realize that apparently White Sided Brooksi magically appeared from one pair of snakes when dozens of people worked with snakes from the same person? Things happen. PB does appear to be different. I love the way "test breedings" is thrown around. You need to test it! Don't sell those! You can't do that!

That would mean hundreds of snakes would be in the freezer by now, and what makes more sense or better said would be more fun. To give people a chance to work with something new that keeps surprising us with new variants or keep test breeding and have tons of snakes sent to the freezer because people like you have a problem with something you don't understand?

Many people like morphs. Many people like Brooksi. This Brooksi morph is a lot of fun to mess with and the variants keep getting better and offer people a lot of options to work with something that is readily available. If you are the type to not want them because they're not as easy to pin down as other morph combos fine, but don't come on here acting as if you have a better grasp of genetics since you read a lot of books or whatever you did to make you an expert. If you're not working with them , then you dont know diddly.

Tom Stevens
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TomsSnakes.com

Really. That you were able to find some humor in this, since its not at all meant to be anything other than fun.

You know this is why I only take so much time trying to explain things. People like yourself see pictures of snakes that look unlike any other morphs and if there's not a 1 2=3 equation for it you make smart comments.

Thats cool. But 1 2 does =3, so what does that have to do with anything. I like genetics, I like to understand morphs beause people ask questions and we should all care about what is real. And what do you mean by smart? If you mean smartA#@ what comments are you refering to? If you mean informed, then yes it does =3 and all the wishing it was some other way wont matter.

Do you realize that apparently White Sided Brooksi magically appeared from one pair of snakes when dozens of people worked with snakes from the same person? Things happen. PB does appear to be different. I love the way "test breedings" is thrown around. You need to test it! Don't sell those! You can't do that!

All morphs have to come from somewhere, so am I supposed to be surprised by that? Did you know the same thing happened with hypos and albinos and many other such morphs in many other species? Its called math. If someone has a het and doesn't know it then it can be years over even decades before het offspring get together to produce the homo.

And never commanded anyone to test anything, nor did I say not to sell something or do something else so I am not sure where you are getting that from.

give people a chance to work with something new that keeps surprising us with new variants or keep test breeding and have tons of snakes sent to the freezer because people like you have a problem with something you don't understand?

Again, I never said that test breedings had to be done, and its awesome that surprises happen. We all want those kinds of surprises to happen to us and thats what makes it all so much fun. But, what exactly am I not understanding? That the PB allele is magic and some new wonderful kind of inheritence when the simplest explanation is that its not?

If you are the type to not want them because they're not as easy to pin down as other morph combos fine, but don't come on here acting as if you have a better grasp of genetics since you read a lot of books or whatever you did to make you an expert. If you're not working with them , then you dont know diddly.

What is not to understand about these genetics? They are just as easy to pin down, it just takes time and looking at the different crosses to do it. It took more than a few yeasrs to the cornsnake people to figure out the ultramel because it takes time to accumulate data to make the conclusion.

And so I understand genetics, is that really a problem? I dont think I am better than anyone because I do, its just a thing. But again, I dont have to work with something to know about the genetics of it. I bet there are lots of things you dont own or work on that you know lots of stuff about.

So why all the contempt? I think all these morphs are super cool, but I also think its important to not go throwing around ideas that some allele is unlike anything we have seen before and there is no explanation for it. That confuses people and is bad for the hobby. Yes, things are not always what they appear to be. But sometimes a cigar is just that.

Vinny
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“There is a grandeur in this view of life, with its several powers, having been originally breathed into a few forms or into one; and that whilst this planet has gone on cycling according to the fixed laws of gravity, from so simple a beginning endless forms most beautiful and most wonderful have been, and are being, evolved.” -C. Darwin, 1859

Natural Selection Reptiles

Sorry, my bolds went away. But I am sure you remember what your parts were.

Vinny
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“There is a grandeur in this view of life, with its several powers, having been originally breathed into a few forms or into one; and that whilst this planet has gone on cycling according to the fixed laws of gravity, from so simple a beginning endless forms most beautiful and most wonderful have been, and are being, evolved.” -C. Darwin, 1859

Natural Selection Reptiles

I have contempt because I have taken interest in this snake for years and have paid close attention to its potential and things not so easily explained have happened a few times now. A few years back many people had a "big deal......" attitude overflowing with sarcasm over this morph. We said we felt it may be something special. Turns out it is, and still people want to pick it apart.

Something you mentioned about the 3 options back in your post again makes this one of the things you expect to be the same as anything else. I mentioned in conversation to Terry Dunham years back during a discussion on Vanishing Patterns in Hondurans "complex" recessive instead of "simple". He seemed to really like thinking about that, it was another option for something that seemed out of place and hard to classify.

This year at Daytona Craig Trumbower bought a snake off me and commented that some of its siblings were of a type that again, was to be classified with a term I have never heard of. I won't even mention that on here as I could see the term being abused as most are on the classifieds.

Now all things concerning what happens when PBs are bred to other morphs are discovered in the collection of one breeder to date. Since he is not as well recieved as Trumbower or Dunham it is constantly challenged. If you watched this person take years to get to where he is now and have what many feel are stunning results only to be constantly challenged.........it gets old. It is one of the reasons I just don't post here very often anymore.

How many morphs have appeared in Ball Pythons in the past 10 years? Tons, and though they are often easy to classify as co dom or simple reccesive there ARE morphs that do pop up that are not easy to reproduce, sometimes they can not be reproduced at all yet they exist. That is not so different as what we are seeing here, and time will tell if some of these newer variants will be reproduced with any sort of predictable outcomes or not. Until then I can not spend too much time to trying to figure it out, we'll just have to wait.

With the Jelly, I thought we'd be cut some slack. PB x T negative Albino created soemthing new immediately, a very uncommon thing seen in colubrids. Now other things are happening that we find surprising and have us thinking.....and unfortunately there's no easy answer. Not yet anyways. Something tells me this is not so much about the snakes as it is the people who work with them. In other words if this PB project was in the hands of more popular people they'd be all the rage. It's sad. I will look forward to seeing what's next myself. I think this morph took Brooksi to the next level and then some. And it appears to only be the beginning.
Tom Stevens.
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TomsSnakes.com

lol!

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"Yeah ya told me, and ya wrote it down too. But how the hell am I supposed to remember!"

Has anyone produced a double homoZ PB and anery/axanthic? The red had to be lost some where. The only thing I can imagine is that both the jelly and the het PBxWS are also het for anery/axantic. Do you know the background on this pair.

Ya well I kinda know the backrounds of most of the new and old florida king reccessive traits. The jelly and the het PBxWS are definetly NOT het for anery/axanthic.

I produced a double homo PB x Lav albino and a PB x anery/axanthic this year. Here are first time never seen before traits:

Phantom (PB x anery)

Peabino (PB x lavender albino)

Pewter:


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"Yeah ya told me, and ya wrote it down too. But how the hell am I supposed to remember!"

pewter??? isn't that a bloddred x charcoal? oh wait wrong forum.LOL....

so Rainer, are you saying that the ws that hatched just popped up from nowhere? both adults had to be carrying that gene.

L8r Shannon

Thats what I'm getting at. Besides, wouldn't it be an anery ultramel?

Vinny
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“There is a grandeur in this view of life, with its several powers, having been originally breathed into a few forms or into one; and that whilst this planet has gone on cycling according to the fixed laws of gravity, from so simple a beginning endless forms most beautiful and most wonderful have been, and are being, evolved.” -C. Darwin, 1859

Natural Selection Reptiles

And that pewter is truely stunning.

But, just to be extremly precise bordering on the insulting , you can't know for sure that your animals are not het for something unless you do the test breedings. I am not saying that to be an A$# but to be extremely precise in what we are talking about.

What produced the phantom and the peabino?

It looks like the pewter is a jelly and anery. Esp. since, if that close up in your previous post is the pewter, the eye is not just black but has shades of grey.

Best,
Vinny
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“There is a grandeur in this view of life, with its several powers, having been originally breathed into a few forms or into one; and that whilst this planet has gone on cycling according to the fixed laws of gravity, from so simple a beginning endless forms most beautiful and most wonderful have been, and are being, evolved.” -C. Darwin, 1859

Natural Selection Reptiles

But, just to be extremly precise bordering on the insulting , you can't know for sure that your animals are not het for something unless you do the test breedings. I am not saying that to be an A$# but to be extremely precise in what we are talking about.

I already explained I was working with the original hypo-axanthic-lavenders when they came out . I would know if there was something like axanthic or WS in them since they produced for the last 16-17 years.

It seems like you are jumping into something you know very little about. The best thing would be to talk over the phone because it would take pages to explain everything.

What produced the phantom and the peabino?

Ahhhh, I already wrote that on each picture if you look (Phantom=PB X anery, Peabino = PB X Lav albino

It looks like the pewter is a jelly and anery. Esp. since, if that close up in your previous post is the pewter, the eye is not just black but has shades of grey.

The eye is pitch black on the Pewter. Any other morph has an iris with red, yellow or white on the outside. Look at the pics of the Phantom and any other Florida king morph. None have an eye like the Pewter.

Also there is no anery or axanthic gene in there in the snakes bred to one another.

Since you just joined on this forum you should know I have been working with Florida kings exclusivly for many years. I know my stock and do not buy new stock. I was the one who poularized the T neg, Peanut Butter and sulfur lavenders florida kings. I also bought the "old" traits early on when the Loves and Doug beard first had the hypos pop out from the NE and Lemke line axanthics when they first came out. Same thing for my BHB anerys.
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"Yeah ya told me, and ya wrote it down too. But how the hell am I supposed to remember!"

Beautiful snakes Zenny. My fave is the NE Axanthic. I keep debating back and forth sometimes on getting one...seeing this may raise the chance of my snake room becoming more crowded...haha!!

Billy
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Genesis 1:1

Thanxx Billy... i mean that's what it's really about in the end... the snakes!

Everyone has their opinions and there are a lot of "hard-headed" individuals here (myself included).. I'll just take myself out of the equation and let the gurus sort through it all... it took a while but i finally see what other saw when they decided to limit participation in this discussion forum...

sooooooooo no more #@%^-$#!* 4 me...

~Z
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Comprehend better than MOST... but i'm NOT claiming to be an expert...

I hear ya!!
Keep posting though!! I always appreciate your pics and posts!!!
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Genesis 1:1