Reptile & Amphibian Forums

You stated you found a deleted conversation very interesting, but you did not ask about the varanid part of that conversation, you only ask about some dominance behaviors of humans or KS policy.

I too thought that conversation had some merit, at least the part that concerned monitors.

I would truly enjoy a conversation with some monitor expert that thinks monitors are foragers only, or mainly, or predominately, etc.

You see, I said, monitors include more then simply foraging, and specifically ambush feeding. I showed an adult Albig in ambush mode, and I mentioned how you can commonly see young monitors ambush feed in captivity.

I also mentioned that I am sure this varies from species to species to some degree.

What I fail to understand is, why do not ask more on this subject and instead fight with me or KS. I feel, thats why you folks leave, you must not be interested in monitors, but more about who says what, or some other people thing. Or simply, you/they have hidden agendas.

If you would have asked for more of an explaination, I would have offered more. Because its a very nice subject and well within the TOS of this forum.

Such as, most odatria are ambush feeders. As are neonates of larger species. There is a very logical and real explaination, They have to ambush feed. If small monitors spend lots of time out, they become the prey and not the predator. That is, its size related. Also, its about body mass, small mass reptiles cannot spend lots of time exposed to the elements as they are prone to dehydration. Again, COMMON SENSE. This is again a trait common to both wild and captive monitors.

As I mentioned in my first post, this subject is so very easy to test. Its even easy to test in nature.

As an example, I watch the snakes on my property, lets take one species, gophersnakes. I can track them to a hole, then periodically dangle a mouse in front of the hole and bingo, ambushed(i even have pics). Same for many of our local lizards. I commonly check areas by throwing crickets in front of junk piles, cracks and crevices and watch lizards fly out and grab them. In most cases, I never saw the lizard to start with. To attack from a hidden position is defined as AMBUSH. (many posts also include AMBUSH) And Yes, I did this with wild monitors.

We all know many snake species are ambush feeders.

Now back to captivity. If you have a decent setup where monitors can thermoregulate undercover, young ones will rarely come out and bask. They spend most of their time in seclusion. You throw food in that they fly out of their shelters. This is so easy to see. But, what is of interest, if you go several days without feeding, then those same young monitors, will indeed start to wander, in search for food. Once fed, back to seclusion they go.

In reality many adults do the same, even large species such as Lacies, only with adult lacies, its the females that perfer to stay and seclusion and ambush feed whenever possible. Also lacies ambush birds. They stay hidden in foliage and leap out and grab birds, even flying birds.(seen it many times) Lacies are only an example, as we see this with most of our monitors.

I also have some very very interesting ambush events with ackies. Ask if your interested.

The tendency to ambush feed is mostly with small monitors, and females. As you most likely already know, males of larger species, have no fear and are the most commonly encountered sex of larger monitors.

Please remember and consider, that words and names are proprietary, That is, belonging to a group or business. In this case, academics difines words much differently then the public and rightfully so. But in this forum, its not academics, its applied. So words or terms are acurate as WE DEFINE/APPLY THEM, not how academics define them. As this is the public and even narrower, a specialize area of application. So we take words like ambush and use them as the dictionary defines them. For instance, the dictionary defines ambush as simply to take unaware. Which opens up how you can apply ambush to monitors.

When I read that this or that is only a forager or some other narrow term. I simply think the author does not get out much. They are simply academic and have to pigeonhole in order for their own academic minds to grasp some understanding. But here, were we actually work with the animals, we commonly see STRONG UNDENIABLE EVIDENCE that those folks in all reality do not get out much.(to get out means, step away from the books and papers and actually look at the subject, the monitors). As you know Jeff, most books are rewrites of other past books, and include little if any actual intimate knowledge of the subject. Remember, I said most books.

So Jeff, what is your arguement that supports all monitors of all sizes, of all ages, and of all species, being indeed ONLY FORAGERS??????? You see Jeff, this was the monitor subject, But I think what interested you was someone would offer some fake challange to me.

So here, I offer you a real oppertunity to offer a real rebuttal, and have it be all about monitors. Remember, I/we already and clearly understand monitors ALSO forage. Cheers

Ha! Just kidding, of course.

I avoided a lot of the goner posts due being tired of my own debates elsewhere, but I did catch bits & pieces here & there and found it to be interesting.

I have a question that may be splitting hairs, which I'd like to avoid, but here it goes.

> > > Now back to captivity. If you have a decent setup where monitors can thermoregulate undercover, young ones will rarely come out and bask. They spend most of their time in seclusion. You throw food in that they fly out of their shelters. This is so easy to see. But, what is of interest, if you go several days without feeding, then those same young monitors, will indeed start to wander, in search for food. Once fed, back to seclusion they go.

For some reason I'm kinda hung up on wondering if there's a difference between ambush and opportunity, considering them coming out of shelter for food. I know that "ambush" means to lay in wait, but is there a fine line between them actually ambushing or waiting for the feed to come to them (opportunity)?

Catch ya later!
Mikie
-----
Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

Hi Sir of the hills, You need to consider, oppertunity is a big bag. Ambush, foraging, sit&wait, and more can be within that oppertunity. Them consider, sometimes oppertunity brings great benefit and other times oppertunity brings great harm(the monitor becomes the prey)

Also, even if oppertunity is all widespread, baby or small monitors cannot risk leaving the shelter of crevices, holes, etc, to obtain food. So they develop behaviors to secure prey without endangering theirselves.

For many of the smaller species, I have no problem finding babies, but then they were nearly always in shelter, as were the adults(only a smaller shelter)

Take common species like panoptes, or gouldi, or flavirufus, who has seen lots and lots of babies in nature?

Take Lacies, Ozzie herpers, often comment on how few babies they see. Again, babies have to outnumber adults(at least temporarily) Certain times of the year they should be everywhere.

So the question is, where are they? The answer is easy, they are hiding and attain all life functions from shelters. So why do they hide If oppertunity is out foraging????? See what I mean?

Those folks here that have seen monitors in the field will tell you one thing, you rarely see babies out walking around. It happens, but rarely. Then you should consider, at times of the year, neonates HAVE to outnumber adults by at least 10 to 1, and most likey way more then that. Yet, finding babies anytime of year is not common.

The whole point thread was a comment about a poster who stated that he knows young monitors sleep/hide all the time. I asked, are you sure they are sleeping? If they are sleeping all the time, then they are sick and in poor conditions. If the husbandry was decent, young monitors are waiting in ambush, not to be confused with sleeping. Again, all you have to do is toss a cricket or pinkie in front of a crack or hole and you will see Varanid(Webster) complete difinition of the word ambush. hahahahahahahahaha

Out of that context, another poster stated that many books say monitors are not ambush feeders but instead foragers. I responded with, they are both and included examples.

In that post, I posted a pic of an albig in ambush position. Drop a mouse in front of that burrow and again the difinition will become clear.

To be a forager, that means, a reptile that finds food on the move, seeks prey, but not knowing where prey is. And yes, I have seen monitors forage, Once I watched a wild panoptes walking slowly and flipping leaves and other ground matter as it walked, its was a great sight. As it walked, it would drag a front foot and as its foot flipped the ground cover, its gate brought its head over and it would inspect the area with rapid tougue flicks and for movement. That would without question be foraging. Vs. a monitor thats hidden and pouncing on prey as the prey walk by its hide. That is ambush.

I also saw mertens foraging, they would swim along and poke their heads in holes and under rocks at the bottom of a pond or creek. I also found them ambush feeding. They are positioned at waterfalls and grabbed fish as they went over the falls(hahahahahahaha a rude swim that would be) I even took pics of this. And it was VERY common at certain times of the day.

Varanids practice both and more. So to say, they are foraging lizards is vague and limiting, as they are much more then that.

I watched flavis dig up lizards, they walked in a strait line as if they already knew where the lizards were buried. They then dug strait down, not following a burrow, and they quickly extracted a lizard and did that until they were full. Hmmmmmmm once one of those lizards was a brevicauda. dang hahahahahahahahaha oh well.

I would question whether thats ambush(to take unaware) or foraging. This is more of a combo I would imagine. The reason I would call it a combination is, it appeared the monitor knew where the prey was, so its not foraging. To forage, is to go find food, not to go GET food. There is only a small difference here, and nothing to argue about. hahahahahahahaha

But when a monitor overnights in a crevice then sits by the opening and ponces of passing prey, thats ambush.

Another odd example. A friend found were Flavis were taking advantage of sand pits. Small lizards would fall in these pits and flavis went in and ate them. The flavis returned day after day. This is being oppertunistic.

Another example of oppertunistic is, were geckos catch bugs around lites. Lites attract bugs, they congregate around the lites and eat the bugs. Or monitors and kites following a tractor plowing up a field, again oppertunistic. Or kites following grass fires, same same.

Or that time my wife and I were shelter in a Ramada in the mountains in mexico(hurricane) we made a fire and at night diurnal lizards basked by the fire, again oppertunistic. Taking advantage of oppertunity.

Then consider, ambush and foraging are a design, not taking advantage of an unusual oppertunity. Cheers

Ha! I don't know if it's because I'm so exhausted and heaeded to bed or if I saw the answer I was lookin' for. i'm litteraly falling asleep reading & writing this so please forbive me for any typos and if I say something that could be take wrong.

As usual, its hard for me to explain the exact thoughts I'm having.

Scene 1:
One moniotr laying motionless at the entrance of its burrow. Head down on the ground, facing out of burrow.It is waiting for a rodent to cmoe by, in close range, so it can grab it by surprise. It is laying along the edge of a frequently used rodent trail.

Rodent comes by on the same trail it's used for the last few months and it becomes monior food.

Definitely "ambush."

Scene 2:
One moniotr laying motionless at the entrance of its burrow. Jusr like the other one. Head down on the ground, facing out of burrow.It is waiting for a rodent to cmoe by using the same rodent trail they've used for months, in close range, so it can grab it by surprise.

Rodent sees monitor, alters path for some other reason. Rodent's newest path takes him at least 10ft away from monitor lying in wait for ambush. Monior sees rodent and begins to pursue, chase, the rodent.

Ambush or opportunistic?

This may be too detailed, splitting hairs, like I said earlier. I could very well be worryin' about the wrong thing. Ha! Ha! Ha! Don't anyone be bashful about lettin' me know if so. I can take it.

Thanks!
HH
-----
Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

LOL Mike, scene 2 is just an ambush gone bad. He had to make it good by not allowing an escapee to run tell his friends where the predator was. That's called coverin' yer butt .

To be opertunistic is to simply to take advantage of whatever you come across. In monitors I would guess that means if you're out cruisin' and your hungry, you eat whatever you find that you deem etable (sp) whether it's dead and rotting or you have to chase it down. Don't try to make sense of this till you get some sleep

Quig
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Don't interupt me when I'm talkin' to myself

Ha! You're dead right, Quig. Did you see the typos in that reply? LOL! I'm usually pretty good about watching out for them, but not that time.

I'm pooped! I'm gone to bed!

Good night!
Mike
-----
Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

Yup your all the way asleep, hahahahahahahaha

First, who put in the head down thing. Hmmmmmmm did you see that albig, it was totally alert and ready to pounce. Head down means something else all together.

A common trait with monitors is, TO BITE anything that moves near its mouth. Even when half asleep. I wonder why they have that behavior???????

Go to bed, and wake up tomorrow and take a fresh look, Oh sir of the mountains. Night

Ahhhhh... me mind is refreshed, batt'ries recharged. But I'm still getting "Invalid query" errors every time I try to compute it in my mind. Ha! HA!

By the way, FR, it was "me" that inserted the "head down" phrase. I only did so to try to signify a total desire to ambush as I know wome animals use this seemingly relaxed pose, but maybe varanids don't. Just chalk it up as another HH goof. Hahaha!!!

Basically, I think my Q is getting into splitting hairs, and I've got enough split ends on, and in, my noggin'.

Hahahahaha!!! Man, what a mess my last few posts were due to severe exhaustion. I've been pushing myself so hard lately that nearly everytime I sit down I start falling asleep within minutes.

I litteraly fell asleep several times reading & trying to post those last messages. My eyes were a crossin', couldn't focus, I'd shake my head, get up & walk around the room, just to try to squeeze in a post that even a 13yr old Instant Messenger user couldn't decipher. Ha! Ha! Been many years since I've been that tired.

Hey Quig!
I'm gonna give you Remote Desktop control of my PC. If you see me startin' to venture any further down in this thread, into that other stuff, snatch a knot in my a--, and lock down my keyboard. Ha! Ha!

Thanks Quig & Frank for you honesty. That's all a man could ask of anyone, but we have to be able to accept it and apply it where it needs to be applied.

Ya'll have a WONDERFUL day!
Mikie
(By the way, "Mikie" is what all family/friends have called me since I was knee-high to a grasshopper. At 46 yrs old it sounds weird to hear sometimes but I still love it. Helps keep me young at heart) HH
-----
Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

Its ok to split hairs, as long as its not done with a axe. hehehehe

And yes your were and its common. The truth is, behaviors are fluid. Like with many other things, the animals do not put hard borders on their behaviors. They have may have to fudge to be successful.

In a sense, monitors are very opportunistic, As they are very successful around man and his habitat destruction. But they still use many different hunting stradgies such as ambush, foraging and others like seeking prey in known areas. I have been racking my brain to either remember what thats called or make up a goofy name for it. My field partner will know, but I will not be seeing him until tomorrow. Even thought I will be in the field today. I have another partner, hahahahahahahahaha To many partners.

The reality still remains, monitors commonly practice ambush. And of many kinds. The examples of ambushing from a hidden position is easy to understand. But there are more methods of ambush. For instance, we have leopard lizards here. I have watched them hunt. Much to my surprise, they practice an ambush from the open. They sit about 12 inches outside bushes and wait for lizards to move in the bushes, then they ponce on them. I first saw this when I was digging dirt for monitor cages. I guess the lizards got use to me.

I noticed something odd about leopard lizards a long time ago. When I walked up open areas in the desert, I would notice way up ahead a large lizard jump into a bush. Not run, jump. This is odd in the lizard world. Kinda jump like a frog. I just thought it was normal for leopard lizards to jump like a frog. Now after I took the time to sit and watch them. I most likely interrupted them ambush feeding. At other times these lizards run away like any other lizard.

One ambush type for monitors is dropping/lunging out of an elevated position. I have seen it in captivity, but not alot.

To compare to snakes, both common boas and carpets, commonly hunt from a elevated position, they lay on branches with their head just off the ground over a rodent trail. The body normally has small loops and the neck is strait and slighly elevated off the branch. I have seen many gophersnakes do that here. In fact I have a pic. In that pic, I was doing mice and noticed this snake in my tractor, its body was on the fender of the tractor and the head was inside just over the rat nest. It stayed that way for hours, all while its body was in the mid day summer sun. I was amazed.

Back to monitors. We have seen them do this, but in all honesty, not often mainly because I rarely give them the oppertunity to do that, no trees.

Monitors such as adult tristis and kimberlys practice a interesting type of hunting. They go around and rouse their prey from crevices and cracks and then run it down. I imagine thats considered foraging.

Now for the point of the whole nine yards, one has to assume that such an OPPORTUNISTIC(i imagine I should spell it right) lizard would INCLUDE, a varity of prey gathering techniques. Including such common techniques as ambush and foraging.

I would also imagine that science likes to only apply those terms to animals with structural adaptions that indicate one or the other prey gathering techniques. With that in mind, why is a V.brevicauda built like it is, it surely cannot run down prey. Or V.gilleni, same question, or V.caudolineatus, or V.kingorum. All this species are not very mobile and normally practice ambush feeding. They are also very small and are consumed by many predators including beardeds and frillies as well as other monitors.

Then you have the big footed giant claws of members of the gouldi complex, which is an adaption for digging burrows and digging up prey. Which i imagine is foraging. But what do their babies do? You see, its always about asking "the better question" Cheers

Excuse me for starting this out off-topic but I'll end it on-topic.

Ambush snakes - Way back when I had BCCs I didn't have climbing branches for them so I missed witnessing their tree-ambush tactics. But I've got a dumeril boa that was given to me several months ago and I have never seen such an ambush display, with a mighty force that'll tighten up your ol' "cloaca," so to speak. Wow! That sucker's awesome. I'll have to video it one day & post it somewhere where everyone can see it.

(Um hmm, this is a monitor forum, HH. Get it?)

OK, back on track, on topic:

While you're trying to think of words, what's the term used for the opposite of "opportunistic" feeders? And what are there feeding characteristics? I used to know all about that stuff but I'm drawin' a huge blank now.

If I understand you right, you say that most varanids are ambush first, foragers second. And that would be primarily due to an ultimate desire (so to speak) to have prey come to them, but if it doesn't then they go to it?

Later!
HH
-----
Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

hahahahahahahaha no, your not understanding me right and if you did, someone would come and put a longarmed white coat on you and TAKE you away ha ha.

I said, some species, odatrad for example, are ambush feeders by choice. Not all, but most or many. Young of most if not all species are ambush feeders. Of course there are some tweeners and all such.

Again, reread the varanid structure part.

May I add something new, in most cases, books discribe cryptic colors as a defensive attribute, on the otherhand, I see it an adaption for acquiring prey. As in to ambush.

We study rattlesnakes, what without question ambush, and are colored to resemble the areas they ambush from. Yet, that same snake rattles to draw attention at its predators. Again, this is very much not a black and white type of thing. Cheers and don't get headackes

> > > hahahahahahahaha no, your not understanding me right and if you did, someone would come and put a longarmed white coat on you and TAKE you away ha ha.

Vacation time, again?

I hope they bring a jacket that fits me this time. Last time the one they had the sleeves were WAY too long & they had to wrap 'em behind me. The padded helmet fit good, though.

OK, I'm gonna back up and read everything over again later on. I think I've got too much on the ol' noggin to be tryin' to comprehend much of anything at the moment.

The bottom line is the possiblity that this is all just flat out too deep for my shallow mind.

And they're coming to take me away ha-haaa
They're coming to take me away ho ho hee hee ha haaa

To the funny farm
Where life is beautiful all the time
And I'll be happy to see those nice young men
In their clean white coats
And they're coming to take me away ha haaa

Later!
HH
-----
Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

Mikie
How are your basket weaving skills?
Some times I sit and twiddle my thumbs and toes HAHA!
One of my favorites!
Thanks for the laugh Brother!
Mike
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Mike's Monitors!

> > > How are your basket weaving skills?

Well, a bit rusty, now. But the last time I was there I was the only that could weave using only my feet & mouth. Them rascals wouldn't take that jacket off me till I was 20 yards south side of the gate the day they released me.

Ha! Ha!

Glad you got a grin, Mike. I get one every time I try to share one.

Ya'll take care now, ya hear?
Mikie
-----
Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

Yepper, I've got too much goin' on, pushin' myself too hard, and ain't being my friendly, happy-go-lucky self here on the forums.

I've been too sensitive, run into other sensitive folks, tired of contentions, tired of bein' contentious, tired of worry'in about hurting someone's feelings, tired of broken confidentiality, tired of being confidential, tired of the way I've been a misbehavin', and just flat out tarred (tarred is how "tired" is pronounced in southern talk).

But mostly, namely, it's just that I'm tired of me being so tired that I misbehave & take it out on someone else. That ain't like me, that's ain't who I am, what I'm about.

I ain't a waitin' on them thar fellas to come with my long-armed jacket, I'm a goin' straight to them.

Maybe I'll send ya'll a basket. Is that why they call me "a basket case"?

Ya'll hold the fort down!
HH
-----
Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

Well I have to comment on two issues here.

#1 you state:
"May I add something new, in most cases, books discribe cryptic colors as a defensive attribute, on the otherhand, I see it an adaption for acquiring prey. As in to ambush."

I don't know where you are quoting your information from (as you do not ever specifically quote things to reference). But a basic of all basic search of the Wikipedia definition of cryptic coloration reveals this statement:

"In nature, there is a strong evolutionary pressure for animals to blend into their environment or conceal their shape; for prey animals to avoid predators and for predators to be able to sneak up on prey. Natural camouflage is one method that animals use to meet these. There are a number of methods of doing so. One is for the animal to blend in with its surroundings, while another is for the animal to disguise itself as something uninteresting or something dangerous."

Here's the link if any doubts to this: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camouflage

#2 you state:
"Yet, that same snake rattles to draw attention at its predators."

The most commonly accepted interpretation of 'why' rattlesnakes rattle is to alert large herd animals (such as cows and bison that inhabit the same grassy plains) not to inadvertantly step on them. It would be erroneous to consider these large herbivores as 'predators' as they eat grass. Perhaps you meant "perceived predator". But then you would realize it would make absolutely no evolutionary sense to call out to your predators, "HEY!!! I'M OVER HERE! COME EAT ME!"

Just my 2 cents.

Sorry I worded that way wrong, I meant camouflage as a way to escape predators.

Also I used examples of cyptic coloration for ambush, as an addition to the above, not in place of the above. Thanks

This is a very interesting post indeed. The way I see it, is that monitors are opportunists so they will eat how, when and where they can permitted whether this be carrion, hunted or ambushed. I think they are quite capable of thought process to the degree to calculate a tactic in order to ambush prey. I think this goes right across the board to all species of monitors including the so called fruit eaters!!!

It as been witnessed in niloticus in Africa where the animal would ly there on the ground in wait as if it was dead then suddenly lunge when a bird was within reach as if it had calculated where the prey would land.

FR, I know exactly the point you were making, it is a shame others do not, instead they seem relentless to take your words out of context and place on other biased forums to try and make you look foolish, at the same time "biggin up" their own self importance. Maybe it is a people "thing" and not about monitors just my honest analysis.

I agree with what you are saying about monitors being opportunistic - hope that wasn't biggin myself up

like it... hahahahah.

Your comments are always welcome Jeff.