Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Well well...I finally got around to doing this. I spent an hour the other night writing one up, only to have the " preview message" button erase everything I wrote. AUGH!

This year was a good year, as always. Me and my wife enjoyed the show and the chance to hang on the beach very much. I recommend all who are married to try to take your significant other. Even though they may not be into herps, the show and the location really makes a difference.

I was able to pick up 3 killer pits at this show. An albino Southern pine sub adult female, a hypo ( probably a t albino ) Tx bull 66% het for hybino, and a Red Lodge Montana locale dwarf bull.

Overall, there may have not been as many pits this year, or a bunch were snatched up the Friday before, as I have heard about others that I didn't see. I was all over that show like a marathon runner, trying to see as many pits as I could.

There were some Stillwater hypos, which are always nice to see. A sub adult pair up for only $2000 ( a little high, but still nice to see), made me really wish my male would grow quicker. I guess I will start speed feeding him. Kidding!

I was able to see some black pine hatchlings. Most had pattern, but a few didn't have hardly any. I went back around a while later, and of course those were snatched up quick.

Others I saw was a few white sided bulls, and albino bulls at the Bell's table. They had some really nice looking hets as well.

As I was walking around with my new purchase of my albino Southern pine, a vendor asked to see her. I let him check her out, and he and his wife exclaimend how they would love to breed her with one of their adult snakes to get some killer babies. I looked down and saw the hybrid blasphemy spread out for all to see. I smiled, quickly took my now visually violated snake, and left. Yes.....the world is a fallen place.

There were some killer northerns this year, the best I have ever seen. The guys who displayed these were John Meltzer, Howie Sherman, and Chris from Suncoast.

Meltzer, who I bought my Red Lodge Montana bull from, which is an amazing bull to look at. I will post pics later. Anyways, this guy breathes locale! All his pits were locale, and so many were freaking out, even friends of mine that don't like pits. He had a nice assortment of Mn. black bulls, Northern pines, Illinois bulls, Red Lodge Bulls, locale het Sonorans, and some others. He sold out as always, which is something I don't see many other vendors happening to them. John either personally collected his locale pit breeders or close friends that he trusts did.

Howie Sherman also had some killer northern pines. I asked him right away the locale, and he said Ocean County, NJ. I love that, when you ask a breeder the locale, and he can tell you right away. I spent a few minutes chatting with him, he is a great guy who loves northerns. John from Suncoast has some worth checking out as well.

There were some red bull adults there for display, which were nice. The babies that I saw though, didn't impress me. I know that they grow into the red color, but these didn't have ANY red to them whatsoever.

I only saw 3 deppei babies as well. I may have missed out on more. Also, a few LA pine babies that were most likely hybrids. I was able to see a few Great Basins as well.

One thing I didn't like was the 3 letter phrase, " I don't know." I got this a lot from many breeders, not only about the locale or parents, but about the particular feeding habits, etc. Nothing against these people, but it was annoying.

It was great to be able to finally meet in person the mighty Shannon Brown. Awesome guy and such a riot! It was also neat to see John Cherry's son and Cherry himself.

Overall, the time ruled this year as it always does and to hang with good friends such as the Meltzers, Soderberg, Shores, Brown, and others.

On the way home, me and my wife were pulled over by a cop with a bullet proof vest on and his hand on his gun. We were both placed 20 feet on opposite ends of the car on the side of the freeway. He searched our car, but before he opened my backpack of newfound pit treasures, I told him what was in it, and he had me show them to him, which he got a kick out of.

After he was done, he explained that there was an armed robbery a few hours earlier, and our car fit the description. He thanked us for our cooperation, and then asked me a question that I would never expect a gun toting cop in Florida to ask.

" How do snakes breed?"

On the side of I 10, the cop learned about the process of snakes breeding. Weird, eh?

Pits rule! Gregg Feaster, Jason Nelson, Terry P, Del, get your butts there someday!

Your buddy,
Billy
-----
Genesis 1:1

Billy, I am also a pit enthusiast. One of my goals has been to find Northen Pine lines originating from NJ that have been kept pure. I believe this is a difficult challenge but I see you think otherwise. Many state that they have such pines but I am sure you most certainly did not miss the post below. The post ended up covering everything else but lineage which was the original scope of the post. I am trying to correct that on your thread since you also visited Daytona this year.

Myself as well as others would gladly purchase Ocean County Northern Pinesnakes from these breeders listed if they could provide information that is pretty much verifiable. Names and such going back to the 70's. Actually, my original intent was to try to put together a group that was somewhat unrelated.

Now my fear has become that if there are actually any being sold as such they are either illegally obtained or have been mixed with pines from further south of that range. I pretty much consider the pines we see for sale as being for the most part generic. Still many fine lookers out there but generic.

I hope I am wrong and would enjoy seeing these fine breeders give us some relief to know there is some legitimate NJ pines being kept pure as you attest to.

You stated John Meltzer, Howie Sherman, I believe it is John Schmidt from Suncoast. John Cherry also mentioned his acquistion of an adult group of Barrens Pines. Some state John Ginter as well as Bart Bruno. There are more but these are the names most people go back to as a reference of where they acquired their NJ locale pines.

I look forward to these fine established pituophis enthusiats who sell herps listed as such to lend their voice on this topic. It would be something to see that so many kept their lines pure for so long a period of time since the Barrens' became off limits to collectors.

I look forward to the info. all you breeders have to offer.

Thanks, Rich Hebron

"You stated John Meltzer, Howie Sherman, I believe it is John Schmidt from Suncoast. John Cherry also mentioned his acquistion of an adult group of Barrens Pines. Some state John Ginter as well as Bart Bruno. There are more but these are the names most people go back to as a reference of where they acquired their NJ locale pines."

Rich,

I totally am with you about wanting to know exact locality about northern pines and others. I spent many shows and conversations to finally come up with the ones I have, 2 being from John Meltzer. Besides the point of John being a good friend, even if I didn't know him, after talking with him for hours about the origins of his collection, particularly the bloodlines of his pits, I would then know that buying a northern pine from him meant getting the real thing. No, I wasn't there when he or anyone I bought from got the parents of their snakes, etc. But one thing you may need to remember is that if may be very hard to find a traceable lineage going back to the wild. I was fortunate enough to find that out on my Sanderson locale grayband. You may have to go by someone's word on this matter, but hopefully you can find out the lineages of those pines you are interested in. Meltzer has been breeding pines since probably the late 70's or early 80's. The mother of my male northern pine from him was born in 1979. Longetivity is one thing to consider, which Meltzer has. He is also friends with Howie, and they both have mutual friends in the business.

Ginter is another person that I trust his word concerning locale. Both him and Meltzer know Bart Bruno, whom is a bigger stickler about locale from what I have heard.

I say this from spending considerable lengths of time talking with these people about locale, about their animals, and bloodlines. If you want the real thing concerning northerns, I would suggest Ginter and Meltzer. Not because they are friends, but because if you had been able to talk with them as much as I have concerning this very topic, then your worries may be at rest. Their stories all remain the same, and never waver. Another thing to consider.

Take care bro! Good to see that there were other pit freaks like me there!

Billy
-----
Genesis 1:1

Billy, I thought the same when I first posted my request for locale info in regards to these "Pine Barrens" locale Northern Pines. It was my intial thought that for the most part all these marketed pines were generic. Pines from NJ were the highlight of my youth in regards to herp awareness. When this area was closed to collection, so many years ago, I found it admirable that so many still marketed such lines.

I thought with so many marketing these herps it would have been easy for me to put a small group (3.5 or so) of somewhat genetically diverse blood together.

It most certainly did not play out that way. I am even more inclined to believe now that what we have in regards to Northern Pines are basically generic. If any attempt has been made to keep a few pure alive in any lines it is my belief most breeders added any "Barrens Looking" Pine into those lines to keep them going with disregard to locale specifics. Actually though, with that area being closed off for so long if anyone is maintaining a pure line, It is my hope that they began with a more diverse goup then say 1.1.

Many have responded to me that they have a friend that had a pair from that area. Could you imagine what we have here if they all have that same friend. Probably better that is kept secret.

Now, if not for so many marketing their herps as Locale specific to this area I would have basically never started my search for pure lines. I was content, sitting back with my memories of these impressive herps living potected in NJ.

I use to say many of these herpers are working with some nice pines where some appear to have some similarities with pines I use to see living wild in NJ.

What I feel now is a different story as it will always be my hope that someone come forward and prove me wrong. I gladly await that time.

Thanks, Rich Hebron

Rich,

Bro, I do see what you are saying and for a long time, I searched for a pure northern pine for my collection. I asked breeders in TX shows about theirs and didn't get the info I wanted.

I then had the fortune to meet both John Meltzer and John Ginter. Like I have already said...I do believe that theirs are pure and if you had been given the chance to talk to them as I have, you someday may be satisfied in this issue.

I say this to encourage you Rich....I do understand that there are breeders out there that seem shaky or have reputations that are less than noble. I have had my share of dealing with them as well. LOL! I also understand your strong conviction of wanting a pure locale Jersey Pine Barrens northern. I shared that same concern, and I don't even breed!

Don't let yourself get screwed out of the chance to own some killer locale pines by thinking that there is this big conspiracy theory with not providing you with the right answers or answers you want. Some people may not simply want to reveal their sources, and if they choose not to, consider the known facts about them and their animals. The people that know them and their animals were not there when the particular founders were collected. So, in some aspect, trust has to be started. Don't let this quest to find pure northerns harder than it is. Out of appreciation for you, my fellow pit lover, I tell you this to try to point you in the right direction.

Simply put...Meltzer and Ginter have pure northerns and I gather that opinion from talking with them for uncounted lengths of time about this issue and thus making a decision to BELIEVE them. Sometimes when we buy snakes, that is all we can do. I don't understand why you had a problem in Daytona getting info on northerns, as I was not with you. Did you even see Meltzer's table and talk with him? That table was a locale enthusiast's dream! LOL!

Take care!
Billy
-----
Genesis 1:1

Bill, yes direction is appreciated. I am familiar with all the names as I had kept pituophis as far back as in the 70's. These particular pines are important as I lived up North and frequented their locale time and again. Think these are a hard find, try to find chain kings from that area.

There are or were legite lines out there and it was my goal to see if some of these still existed. Actually, I have found one legite line that is still in existance just waiting on numbers left and am in hopes on getting verification on another.

Some good info. is starting to come my way as these posts apparently are getting to the people who have done much research in that area many years ago.

My actual intention was not to make that big a deal out of this. It was actually one question I posted that set it off. My intention was to only put a group together "if possible". Not an ultimate goal.

About large shows, my wife and I hit some of them but I do hardly any shopping when there. I usually make it a point to purchase herps in advance. I'm not one for impulse purchases only because it became work ,years ago, when I topped 400 herps.
We prefer the shows as a time to get together with other people that have similar interests to ours. I spent maybe 3 hours total actually looking at herps during show hours and most of that time was in picking up herps from people I had already discussed purchases with, some up to one year in advance.

The rest of the time was spent outdoors by the pool, on the beach or eating dinner with other herpers we had made plans to spend time with.

Look at it this way, what you see me doing today is actually arranging my purchases for next season. I've become this way with all new herp acquisitions. Just an old dawg who does not want anything to do with new tricks.

If Daytona is in your plans for next season perhaps we can chat a bit in person.

Rich Hebron

Same thing happenned to me. Spent an hour or more posting at the rainbow boa forum only to have it erased (twice!) when I clicked on the "preview" button. What's going on?! TV

how big do the drawfs get billy? and did you say 2 grand for a pair of stillwaters???.......and thanks for taking the time to re-write your post, i enjoyed it.

Billy, great report...I quit going after 2001 since the pit selection seems to be decreasing. Then it seemed the trend was toward more lizards and boa/pythons. May have to reinitiate the pilgrimage next August based on your write up.

Thanks for sharing the notes.

KB

There were some red bull adults there for display, which were nice. The babies that I saw though, didn't impress me. I know that they grow into the red color, but these didn't have ANY red to them whatsoever.

Hmmm.... Then I guess you didn't see this:

The display with the adult red bull contained the father to the hatchling pictured above, plus a couple of his older offspring. I too saw several "red bulls" with no red at all, but Chesapeake Herpetoculture had a pair of nice ones (which are now residing in my snake room).

Unfortunately, the pair I got doesn't have much of a pedigree, so you purists wouldn't have wanted these beauties anyway. (Kidding -- not trying to offend anyone) You can read about their origins here:

Chesapeake Herpetoculture's Red Bulls

I am completely enamored with the pair I got, even if they have mysterious origins. I'll post more photos...
-----
Ronda Van Winkle
Northwest Herpetoculture

Photo taken outside during the day with no direct sunshine and no flash:

Photo taken inside with flash:

-----
Ronda Van Winkle
Northwest Herpetoculture

That female was among the nicest ever produced. I actually had a bit of a hard time parting with her. Unfortunately my facilities only allow for properly housing of 2 pits at a time. Keep us posted as she aint done gettin red yet!

The male isn't nearly as red as the female, but the fellow I purchase the pair from said the father (who was on display and super red) was about this red as a hatchling.

Photos taken indoors with flash:

Photo taken outdoors during the day with no direct sun and no flash:

-----
Ronda Van Winkle
Northwest Herpetoculture

graet choice nice snakes thanks for shareing pics

Snooze you lose I guess....I waited to long to decide on that pair and they were gone when I made up my mind.
Nice pick-up, I'm glad they went to a good home. I'm going to go sulk now (LOL)
Chris

Ronda, you did very good! I didn't see those! Very nice!!!! Whoo hoo!

Thanks for posting the pics!
Billy
-----
Genesis 1:1

Pedigree, schmedigree, those are nice!

my eye on them till sunday when all of a sudden they were gone.
I would have had them in a second but I have a deposit down for a killer pair in a few weeks.
I am glad a real pit person ended up with them and to bad we didn't get to meet ronda.

shannon

Hey Billy! Glad to see you back. Sounds like the show was great. *envious sigh* Maybe my hubby and I can go next year..........

Missed you!
Judy
-----
1.0 red cape gopher (Caesar)

Thanks for the great DAYTONA REPORT. You are correct, we shouldn't substitiute your report for the real thing. Del and I are hopefully working towards attending Daytona next year. Del and I will probably need to charter a plane to bring home the pits and obsoleta we would have to buy. Now I can't wait to see the pics of the pits.

>>Well well...I finally got around to doing this. I spent an hour the other night writing one up, only to have the " preview message" button erase everything I wrote. AUGH!
>>
>>This year was a good year, as always. Me and my wife enjoyed the show and the chance to hang on the beach very much. I recommend all who are married to try to take your significant other. Even though they may not be into herps, the show and the location really makes a difference.
>>
>>I was able to pick up 3 killer pits at this show. An albino Southern pine sub adult female, a hypo ( probably a t albino ) Tx bull 66% het for hybino, and a Red Lodge Montana locale dwarf bull.
>>
>>Overall, there may have not been as many pits this year, or a bunch were snatched up the Friday before, as I have heard about others that I didn't see. I was all over that show like a marathon runner, trying to see as many pits as I could.
>>
>>There were some Stillwater hypos, which are always nice to see. A sub adult pair up for only $2000 ( a little high, but still nice to see), made me really wish my male would grow quicker. I guess I will start speed feeding him. Kidding!
>>
>>I was able to see some black pine hatchlings. Most had pattern, but a few didn't have hardly any. I went back around a while later, and of course those were snatched up quick.
>>
>>Others I saw was a few white sided bulls, and albino bulls at the Bell's table. They had some really nice looking hets as well.
>>
>>As I was walking around with my new purchase of my albino Southern pine, a vendor asked to see her. I let him check her out, and he and his wife exclaimend how they would love to breed her with one of their adult snakes to get some killer babies. I looked down and saw the hybrid blasphemy spread out for all to see. I smiled, quickly took my now visually violated snake, and left. Yes.....the world is a fallen place.
>>
>>There were some killer northerns this year, the best I have ever seen. The guys who displayed these were John Meltzer, Howie Sherman, and Chris from Suncoast.
>>
>>Meltzer, who I bought my Red Lodge Montana bull from, which is an amazing bull to look at. I will post pics later. Anyways, this guy breathes locale! All his pits were locale, and so many were freaking out, even friends of mine that don't like pits. He had a nice assortment of Mn. black bulls, Northern pines, Illinois bulls, Red Lodge Bulls, locale het Sonorans, and some others. He sold out as always, which is something I don't see many other vendors happening to them. John either personally collected his locale pit breeders or close friends that he trusts did.
>>
>>Howie Sherman also had some killer northern pines. I asked him right away the locale, and he said Ocean County, NJ. I love that, when you ask a breeder the locale, and he can tell you right away. I spent a few minutes chatting with him, he is a great guy who loves northerns. John from Suncoast has some worth checking out as well.
>>
>>There were some red bull adults there for display, which were nice. The babies that I saw though, didn't impress me. I know that they grow into the red color, but these didn't have ANY red to them whatsoever.
>>
>>I only saw 3 deppei babies as well. I may have missed out on more. Also, a few LA pine babies that were most likely hybrids. I was able to see a few Great Basins as well.
>>
>>One thing I didn't like was the 3 letter phrase, " I don't know." I got this a lot from many breeders, not only about the locale or parents, but about the particular feeding habits, etc. Nothing against these people, but it was annoying.
>>
>>It was great to be able to finally meet in person the mighty Shannon Brown. Awesome guy and such a riot! It was also neat to see John Cherry's son and Cherry himself.
>>
>>Overall, the time ruled this year as it always does and to hang with good friends such as the Meltzers, Soderberg, Shores, Brown, and others.
>>
>>On the way home, me and my wife were pulled over by a cop with a bullet proof vest on and his hand on his gun. We were both placed 20 feet on opposite ends of the car on the side of the freeway. He searched our car, but before he opened my backpack of newfound pit treasures, I told him what was in it, and he had me show them to him, which he got a kick out of.
>>
>>After he was done, he explained that there was an armed robbery a few hours earlier, and our car fit the description. He thanked us for our cooperation, and then asked me a question that I would never expect a gun toting cop in Florida to ask.
>>
>>" How do snakes breed?"
>>
>>On the side of I 10, the cop learned about the process of snakes breeding. Weird, eh?
>>
>>Pits rule! Gregg Feaster, Jason Nelson, Terry P, Del, get your butts there someday!
>>
>>Your buddy,
>>Billy
>>-----
>>Genesis 1:1

Hey Billy
Its sound like a great time in Daytona . Meeting all the great Pit guys and seeing all the awesome animals .
I'am getting a lot pressure just to make it to Daytona and even to get a booth their.
Well maybe next year .

take care

Jason

to make it there in a few years myself. Thanks for the detailed report, greatly appreciated. All the new babies have been keeping my busy and off the pc, but i'll try to shoot you an e-mail here later this week. When you get Jason, Terry and Del to come down there, then I'll definitely have to go. I couldn't let Terry go down and buy a bunch of snakes without me having a chance to buy just as many, lol. Although I did sell all my adult Corns this weekend, i still have around 50 babies to get rid of, but the collection went down in size just a little, lol. Making room for a ton of Pits that are arriving soon.

Have a good one Billy,

Gregg F.

>>Well well...I finally got around to doing this. I spent an hour the other night writing one up, only to have the " preview message" button erase everything I wrote. AUGH!
>>
>>This year was a good year, as always. Me and my wife enjoyed the show and the chance to hang on the beach very much. I recommend all who are married to try to take your significant other. Even though they may not be into herps, the show and the location really makes a difference.
>>
>>I was able to pick up 3 killer pits at this show. An albino Southern pine sub adult female, a hypo ( probably a t albino ) Tx bull 66% het for hybino, and a Red Lodge Montana locale dwarf bull.
>>
>>Overall, there may have not been as many pits this year, or a bunch were snatched up the Friday before, as I have heard about others that I didn't see. I was all over that show like a marathon runner, trying to see as many pits as I could.
>>
>>There were some Stillwater hypos, which are always nice to see. A sub adult pair up for only $2000 ( a little high, but still nice to see), made me really wish my male would grow quicker. I guess I will start speed feeding him. Kidding!
>>
>>I was able to see some black pine hatchlings. Most had pattern, but a few didn't have hardly any. I went back around a while later, and of course those were snatched up quick.
>>
>>Others I saw was a few white sided bulls, and albino bulls at the Bell's table. They had some really nice looking hets as well.
>>
>>As I was walking around with my new purchase of my albino Southern pine, a vendor asked to see her. I let him check her out, and he and his wife exclaimend how they would love to breed her with one of their adult snakes to get some killer babies. I looked down and saw the hybrid blasphemy spread out for all to see. I smiled, quickly took my now visually violated snake, and left. Yes.....the world is a fallen place.
>>
>>There were some killer northerns this year, the best I have ever seen. The guys who displayed these were John Meltzer, Howie Sherman, and Chris from Suncoast.
>>
>>Meltzer, who I bought my Red Lodge Montana bull from, which is an amazing bull to look at. I will post pics later. Anyways, this guy breathes locale! All his pits were locale, and so many were freaking out, even friends of mine that don't like pits. He had a nice assortment of Mn. black bulls, Northern pines, Illinois bulls, Red Lodge Bulls, locale het Sonorans, and some others. He sold out as always, which is something I don't see many other vendors happening to them. John either personally collected his locale pit breeders or close friends that he trusts did.
>>
>>Howie Sherman also had some killer northern pines. I asked him right away the locale, and he said Ocean County, NJ. I love that, when you ask a breeder the locale, and he can tell you right away. I spent a few minutes chatting with him, he is a great guy who loves northerns. John from Suncoast has some worth checking out as well.
>>
>>There were some red bull adults there for display, which were nice. The babies that I saw though, didn't impress me. I know that they grow into the red color, but these didn't have ANY red to them whatsoever.
>>
>>I only saw 3 deppei babies as well. I may have missed out on more. Also, a few LA pine babies that were most likely hybrids. I was able to see a few Great Basins as well.
>>
>>One thing I didn't like was the 3 letter phrase, " I don't know." I got this a lot from many breeders, not only about the locale or parents, but about the particular feeding habits, etc. Nothing against these people, but it was annoying.
>>
>>It was great to be able to finally meet in person the mighty Shannon Brown. Awesome guy and such a riot! It was also neat to see John Cherry's son and Cherry himself.
>>
>>Overall, the time ruled this year as it always does and to hang with good friends such as the Meltzers, Soderberg, Shores, Brown, and others.
>>
>>On the way home, me and my wife were pulled over by a cop with a bullet proof vest on and his hand on his gun. We were both placed 20 feet on opposite ends of the car on the side of the freeway. He searched our car, but before he opened my backpack of newfound pit treasures, I told him what was in it, and he had me show them to him, which he got a kick out of.
>>
>>After he was done, he explained that there was an armed robbery a few hours earlier, and our car fit the description. He thanked us for our cooperation, and then asked me a question that I would never expect a gun toting cop in Florida to ask.
>>
>>" How do snakes breed?"
>>
>>On the side of I 10, the cop learned about the process of snakes breeding. Weird, eh?
>>
>>Pits rule! Gregg Feaster, Jason Nelson, Terry P, Del, get your butts there someday!
>>
>>Your buddy,
>>Billy
>>-----
>>Genesis 1:1