Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I think I remember folks posting before that there are differences among subspecies of Terrapene carolina how low temps are before they hibernate, and differences among what the temps are that stimulate them to come out of hibernation. Also, subspecies vary the depths at which they burrow into leaf piles. Is this true? If so, can someone tell me the approx. temps that start each subspecies' hibernation and the temps that stimulate them to leave hibernacula? And approximately, relative to eachother, how far do they dig into the pile?

How about the same questions between Terrapene ornata ornata and T. o. luteola - are there differences between them.

These differences, if present, suggest different thermal qualities among subspecies, and I would almost expect them to have different preferred temps.

I haven't run across preferred temp data for T. carolina acrosss its range or any comparison among its subspecies. But I did read a paper on T. ornata at its southwestern range limit in Arizona - just about the hottest habitat T. ornata (the subspecies being T. o. luteola here), and the author found that the preferred temps of this population of T. o. luteola was no different from that T. ornata elsewhere.

If there are differences among subspecies of T. carolina in temps at which they start and end hibernation, I would expect differences between the subspecies of T. ornata - AND I would a different thermal preference, but it isn't there.

Hope this message isn't too long! I partly want to know this becuase I was thinking of doing temperature-related work on painteds, and wondered if I want to get southern painteds, do I want to get southern Chrysemys picta marginata, the same species that lives here, or is it O.K. to get C. p. picta or C. p. dorsalis?

I have two questions to clarify, for me, what you've stated that you’re looking for.

1. Hibernation differences/preferences between subspecies that only occur within the same general region (i.e. Arizona, Florida, etc.)

and/or

2. Hibernation differences/preferences between subspecies across their entire range (i.e t.c.c. Michigan-Florida, compared to t.c.b. Florida, also compared to t.c.t. Gulf Region)

I believe you are looking more for information from question one, but wondered if you were also considering info that might also come from question 2.

I have only read anecdotal reports from breeders that seem to confirm your hypothesis for question one with regard to Eastern boxies and subspecies particularly in the Florida region.

I would love to read the results you find in this regard. So please post them when you're done.

The Anonymous Biology Teacher

Actually, I'm looking for information on both.

I haven't found ANY biological peer-reviewed articles on differences on hibernation differences, but maybe I haven't searched using the rignt words, now that I think of it. I suspected people in this forum would probably know more about that than those who study herps for a living.

The literature has virtually no data on temp preferences on T. carolina - only on peper by do Amaral et al. on comparson of T. ornata (actually the subspecies was T. o. ornata) and T. carolina (subspecies T. c. triunguis).

I can't recall any papers that made a comparison between the various box turtle species hibernation and awakening temps. In my experience there doesn't appear to be any one special temperature per se but a combination of conditions. I hibernate ornates and three-toeds in a hibernation box but each year they actually begin their hibernation outside. I only put them in the box when outdoor temp begin to freeze and even then one Three-toed may be under a light covering of leaves and another will be dug in 4 inches. Maybe as the weather got colder they would have all dug down to a similar depth but I am not sure. Hopefully someone who has their turtles in a hibernation pit can tell you more.

Good luck with your investigation. Tess
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Tess
Kingsnake.com Forum Host

One thing you need to keep in mind about these turtles is that their natural geographic ranges cover huge areas. T.c.carolina, for example, ranges from northern Florida in the south all the way up to the Great Lakes and New England in the north. Turtles from the southern end of the range would have very different hibernation tendencies than ones from the northern extremes where the winters are colder and longer. The best you could hope for would boil down to very broad general comparative tendencies. Even within the same subspecies, individual turtles are exposed to such widely different weather and temperature conditions, depending on where they live along the north/south axis of their range, that you can't even lump them all together, much less compare them to other subspecies. Describing tendencies of captive bred turtles is even more complicated because they may have originated in the north and are now living in the south where they will act very differently, of necessity, to adapt to their new surroundings. They're all going to do what their ambient temperatures dictate. If it gets cold where they are, they'll be less active and stay that way until it warms up, whether it takes three months or six months.

A good reference for this kind of data would be "North American Box Turtles: A Natural History".

But based on my own observations of my own turtles and what other people report here, it just doesn't seem to be that cut and dried.

PHratz who lives probably 200-300 miles southwest of me (at least) reported hers going under the third week of October (although one has just come back up).

I'm in the middle of Oklahoma and the third week of October, my turtles (ornates and three toeds) were still out partying and I was running around in shorts.

Sunday and Monday, after a few days of cooler weather, they were all out sunning but by 4:30 yesterday they seemed to know it was going to hit the mid 30s overnight and all but two were underground, and I started my annual tradition of putting out a relatively thin layer of hay that I will gradually add to.

I do expect to see some of them up between now and thanksgiving,
usually they are all down by early December.

In reference to your post, they should be going underground, not just under leaves, although its possible that might happen in the wild (according to the above mentioned book).

Mine always end up under dirt even though the pen is gradually filled with leaves and hay and during a hard freeze, I wouldn't want it any other way.

Some of mine are just under the surface with the tops of their shells barely exposed, others go several inches deep.
The ornates tend to go deeper than the three toeds.

The main thing is to keep an eye on them and the thermometer.
We may hit the freezing point overnight so I will be making sure all are either underground or under a thick layer of hay.

This map of plant hardiness zones is a good illustration of the climate variations from one region to another.
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