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Anyone here Own an Axanthic White-Sided Female Brooks?

Seem like everyone has a Male...?

Could there be something genetically wrong with the Female Axanthic WS?

Limited production... short lived... etc???

Thanx

~ZF
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Comprehend better than MOST... but i'm NOT claiming to be an expert...

I think they are out there just as much its just that people don't sell lone breedable females of the rarer morphs.

Its funny, I have noticed for many many years that one something is brand new and first available that the males are more money and if you can even buy one? a few years later its the females that pull the higher price.I see it over and over.

So, what happened to the thread that Jeff started today? its gone, did I miss something?

Shannon

Don’t know the answers to that, but I’ve got a question about the whiteside itself.

If one of Jeff’s patternless orange hypo brooks/goini were to be bred into the axanthic whiteside, would the snake end up being solid white because of the patternless goini- no pattern (or actually a super clean patternless) at all down the back?
Oh man some guys are freaking out at the thought- a solid white patternless hypo axanthic whitesided brooks/goini. Somebody name it, quick! But sign me up for some first...

Yes, the dble hets should be available in 09(I am not pushing them after losing this snake in brumation yr 2 last time). J

IF someone were to attempt that pairing and was able to get a 3x HomoZ (Patternless-White-sided-Ghost Goini X Brooksi) animal there should still be some coloration/pattern on the back of the animal. it could be very visible as a hatchling but MAY fade out completely into adulthood or very faded as a hatchling but visible into adulthood.

WS is a type of Leucism(partial Leucism, similar to Pied/Piebald)so it fades out the colored pigments... the purple hue from the Axanthic comes through but the snake is still pretty much white... I have yet to see an adult WS-Hypo but I bet they'd be pretty white or cream.

WS Ghost and Snows should be VERY interesting both will probably be pretty WHITE adult snakes... only thing that will definitely set them apart would be the eye coloration ...

WS Ghost = Dark Iris, Red/ruby pupil

WS Snow = Red/Ruby Iris & Pupil

~ZF

~ZF
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Comprehend better than MOST... but i'm NOT claiming to be an expert...

>>IF someone were to attempt that pairing and was able to get a 3x HomoZ (Patternless-White-sided-Ghost Goini X Brooksi) animal there should still be some coloration/pattern on the back of the animal. it could be very visible as a hatchling but MAY fade out completely into adulthood or very faded as a hatchling but visible into adulthood.
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>>WS is a type of Leucism(partial Leucism, similar to Pied/Piebald)so it fades out the colored pigments... the purple hue from the Axanthic comes through but the snake is still pretty much white... I have yet to see an adult WS-Hypo but I bet they'd be pretty white or cream.
>>
>>WS Ghost and Snows should be VERY interesting both will probably be pretty WHITE adult snakes... only thing that will definitely set them apart would be the eye coloration ...
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>>WS Ghost = Dark Iris, Red/ruby pupil
>>
>>WS Snow = Red/Ruby Iris & Pupil
>>
>>~ZF
>>
>>
>>~ZF
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>>Comprehend better than MOST... but i'm NOT claiming to be an expert...

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Life moves pretty fast, if you dont stop and look around once and a while,... you could miss it.

Err sorrymy message was replaced with yours for some reason....

I have a 3x het ws/axan/snow male

It would be breeding this year but the female died

does anyone know of anyone with brooksi with ws/snow genes???

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Life moves pretty fast, if you dont stop and look around once and a while,... you could miss it.

>>WS is a type of Leucism(partial Leucism, similar to Pied/Piebald)

With the earlier thread I almost hate to ask this, but has this been proven out? I know why you'd say/think it, but has it been proven?
Typically leucistics have dark eyes with dark colored irises, and piebaldism seems to have a somewhat aberrant trait, rather than giving a consistant pattern variation, and the normal pigmented areas typically don't show fading. So, I'm just wondering if you have some info that shows this truely is leucism/piebaldism?

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Ace

Cool looking snake!... love the silver iris!

NOW:

I have not bred any WS mutations to a Leucistic mutation, and I don't plan on cross breeding anything in attempt to prove it out. There can be varied forms of the same mutation expressed in different ways; some compatible, some not. if I were to breed a Leucistic specimen to a WS specimen and ended up with non-morphs it wouldn't prove anything (there are T- mutations in various colubrids that are not all compatible but to the naked eye they all look the same)

There is a lot we can learn from the findings of others, and my hypothesis is based on my research in to the White-sided Mutation and how it could be related to Leucism.

I don't have the funds for Genetic testing either sooooo... i will just have to theorize for now.

*Leucism is a mutation that is characterized by the reduction of ALL pigmentation. This results in individuals that are completely white. While Leucism may seem similar to Amelanism, what sets they apart is the fact that Leucitic individuals have dark colored eyes. Pigment cells responsible for eye coloration are from an “independent developmental origin” (unlike other pigment cells) and are not affected by Leucism

Here is my running theory/hypothesis based on my observations & research:

I. The Only Gene/ Mutation that is capable of removing all pigmentation is Leucism...

II. "Pied or Piebald" is Partial Leucism that is Asymmetrical (i.e. has NO structure), hence the "pied" areas vary from specimen to specimen.

III. The only areas affected in the White-sided mutations are the sides and abdominal regions (i.e. it is Symmetrical... it has structure, hence the predictable out come when you breed WS to WS.)

My conclusion:

The White-sided mutation is a type of Leucism, rather partial Leucism similar to Pied/ Piebald, but with more “structure” than the typical Piebald mutation. In the “White-sided” mutation, Leucism is “localized” along the sides and abdominal regions of a specimen; only affecting those areas.

How do I account for the Ruby coloration of the pupils, I can't... Leucism alone does not affect the pigmentation of the eyes... If we look at the pigmentation in the eyes of a WS you noticed the Iris is still dark/black, but the pupils are a dark ruby... maybe that's just how Leucism affects an animal when it is incomplete (partial / Localized).

i think any Hi-red,Orange,Sulphur phenotype that is bred into the White-sided mutation will not "come through" as a reault of the Leucistic mutation (that's one way to test it)

~ZF

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Comprehend better than MOST... but i'm NOT claiming to be an expert...

I dont think I've ever read anything specifically about what the specific mutation that causes WS is, but I can infer whats going on.

Pigment cells are derived from very special cells during development called neural crest cells. These are super cool cells that originate deep near the brain and can become lots of other kinds of cells, including melanocytes.

Neural crest related cells, including melanocytes, migrate during development from near the brain to their final place. For pigment cells it occurs in there steps, first they move out from the brain up and down the spinal cord. They hold up along the spine for a couple days, growing and dividing. Then, the move out from the spine and down to the belly. Some move all the way down, while others stop along the way and take up residence just under the skin. Then, the hold out for a couple more days growing and dividing. Finally, the move up into the skin.

These same melanocytes move into the eyes and color the iris. But there are also pigment cells deep in eye behind the light sensing rods and cones.

Given all this developmental info, I think its a safe assumption that the WS mutation effects how melanocytes migrate during development. The are able to move out along the spinal chord, but cant finish the migration. That would include into the eyes. So, some pigment gets in, but not as much as usual I guess.

Leucistics are probably a related mutation that prevents the pigment cells from even taking the first migration step out from the brain.

Best,
Vinny
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“There is a grandeur in this view of life, with its several powers, having been originally breathed into a few forms or into one; and that whilst this planet has gone on cycling according to the fixed laws of gravity, from so simple a beginning endless forms most beautiful and most wonderful have been, and are being, evolved.” -C. Darwin, 1859

Natural Selection Reptiles

>>>Here is my running theory/hypothesis based on my observations & research:

Thanks for the info Zenny. I asked because the WS trait doesn't SEEM to "fit" into KNOWN typical leucistic or piebald traits. I do agree it SEEMS to be related to them in some way, but I'd stop short of actually calling it either too. I do think there's alot going on with these that needs to be tested out.....till then I'll leave my theories up in the air.

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Ace

LOL... i like that word "Seems" since i can't prove it out i'll have to add that word to my conclusion...

esp when i put this on my website! thanx!

~Z
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Comprehend better than MOST... but i'm NOT claiming to be an expert...

Hasn't there been more work on the w/s rat snakes and the leucistic blue-eyed and red-eyed rats?? Neither have a dark pupil/iris do they?
Someome must have crossed the w/s into these by now,huh?
Are you of the opinion that w/s in FL kings is from ratsnakes?
:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!

crimsonking.piczo.com/

>>Hasn't there been more work on the w/s rat snakes and the leucistic blue-eyed and red-eyed rats?? Neither have a dark pupil/iris do they?

I believe, though I'm not sure, that the ones with red irises and or pupils are the result of breeding to albinos. But, don't quote me on that.

>> Someome must have crossed the w/s into these by now,huh?

Actually, at the one Hamburg show I seen some snakes marked "WS Brooks" that I thought looked like WS Rats. They had less distinct and broader looking bands than what you see in the "normal" WS Florida Kings. To me those were obvious crosses. When I asked the breeder about them, he was very short tongued about them too. Hmmmm......? I left them sit.

>> Are you of the opinion that w/s in FL kings is from ratsnakes?

Personally, no. Can I prove it...huh...no. WS Speckleds and WS triangulum have been reported and/or bred for awhile. So, you don't need to go to the Ratsnakes for this trait. It DOES occur within the genus. But like I said, I can't PROVE it's not from the rats either.

P.S.- You still have me down for a Female ghost RIGHT??!!!
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Ace

Here is a picture that really doesn't PROVE anything but it is a WS blackrat crossed with a Ghost Glades (aka WS everglades ratsnake). The genes were allelic.

Here is a pic of the "Ghost Glades" (aka WS everglades) which shows the WS trait is not that clean on this spp.. Also the trait did effect the red coloration from the normal Everglades. The hets (normals) of these were red so the reccessive trait did effect color..

Adult hybrid WS Blackrat x WS Everglades.
Again does not prove anything except that Zennys theory that a sulfur gene injected into the WS florida king might wash out the reds.

Just one more pic to show a pure WS Blackrat (aka Licorice stick blackrat). Much cleaner sides that the Everglades WS trait. Of course crossing them produced cleaner white sides.

Pic of a WS Florida king:

and a couple pics of the "Whitewall" speckled king. I beleive these are something a little different from the WS Blackrat and the gene are not allelic. Coolest snake and they will eat your finger (literally).


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"Yeah ya told me, and ya wrote it down too. But how the hell am I supposed to remember!"

oops! the last pic of the WW speckled did not come out. These are so cool I had to post the pic. Blows away any whitesided trait out there IMO.

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"Yeah ya told me, and ya wrote it down too. But how the hell am I supposed to remember!"

I have a WS axanthic female.

She is verry angry but she is fine.

eatin sheddin growin....biteing....

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Life moves pretty fast, if you dont stop and look around once and a while,... you could miss it.

There is a picture on Professional Breeders site (link below) that shows a axanthic whitesided Brooks that has a big spot of almost “normal” color. I would think that orangish spot wouldn’t be there on a axanthic. It is very random, almost pied-like in reverse. It has always seemed a very strange whiteside, but maybe it’s common and I just haven’t seen very many. The belly and sides on whitesided are quite leucistic looking for sure. I have had lucy rats that had a couple of dark scales, don’t know if the whitesided Brooks also will have random normal colored scale in the pure white part? Another thing, I have always thought leucism was not the absence of all color, but the replacement of all color with the color white. Isn’t that why the eyes are dark? It isn’t anything with amelanism, it’s the color white. If they were without color wouldn’t the vents be sorta transleucent looking and pink and veiney? Seems to me it’s solid white. Same with pie bald, they aren’t see-through blotches, they are solid white.
Here’s a link to the picture I was wondering about-
Axanthic(?) whiteside
This picture shows a lot of the white parts.
Looks pretty leucistic on the vents and sides to me...

That snake is what one would refer to as a "Paradox"...

Something that does against common sense... Something that isn't supposed to happen, such as normal scales on an albino.

Tim ricks had a few Paradox Floridana before he lost his collection to Katrina, I really do hope they pop up again in someone's collection!

As far as I heard from him when I asked, some "paradox" hatchlings popped up when 3x hets were bred, but I think it had more to do with his bloodlines than it had to do with just pairing 3x hets.

~ZF
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Comprehend better than MOST... but i'm NOT claiming to be an expert...