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mystery snakes amel/normal?

Looks like an one of those Albino Giant Green milksnakes that Jeff has.

Kerby...
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Lonesome Valley Reptiles
www.lonesomevalleyreptiles.com
Specializing In California Kingsnakes

Aaron, you are EXACTLY right! That albino thayeri hybrid should be a killer leonis phase as an adult. And believe it or not I picked up that thayeri for $25 off a table at a local show. I didnt want to alert the guy to what I thought it was, so I dont have the history behind it...but looks good enough to me! Will post better pics of her when she sheds,Jeff

Not that this matters at all, but neither of those are typical of thayeri.

The ALbino would be a very interesting normal. The back half would be orange and black. The odd part is the wide black. I have not seen that on ANY leonis or near leonis thayeri. And rarely of milksnake thayeri.

The normal is typical of many crosses, In fact, looks similar to some calking/thayeri I hatched recently.

Here are two "thayeri" albinos that are more typical of a normal thayeri pattern. Of course they are not pure thayeri either, they just have the pattern of normal thayeri.
I would think for line bred animals like these, need to fit an appearance(thayeri)(pedigree, a representation of ancestry and standing) In order to be called one. Cheers

Variable kings are VARIABLE KINGS as far as I know. Now I understand there are purists who need locality from their animals,and I know there are people who into producing hybrids....but neither of those seem the case with this one. If it were a cross I cant think of of what else would have looked like it. I might be wrong, but this LOOKS genetic to me. Of course I will have to prove it but here she is.
The Albino is a "ruthveni cross". It is a very strange looking little snake, and I happen to think the resulting offspring from the 2 could be something special. J

Let me know what you think this could be. I really dont see any CAL KING in it like you claimed....

My pic taking isnt the best.

I could not guess what it is........the only thing I notice is, and I am asking because it is hard to judge from the pics, but is the head a bit larger than average???
Tom Stevens
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TomsSnakes.com

This one reminded me of a grayband cross at first and it just may be..head looks much like alterna (to me) still.
The dark bordered saddles leave the impression of a milk or corn to me as well.
There are all sorts of crosses using the milks and graybands/mexicana.
I have a psir of alterna/thayeri I used to breed (I did not do the original cross) but the hatchlings either come out like very "pin banded" alterna phase w/bright orange slits or sort os a pink and whiet ruthven-like animal.
In my opinion that animal is not a pure thayeri
but what do I know?
:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!

crimsonking.piczo.com/

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Surrender Dorothy!

crimsonking.piczo.com/

I think right now there are more "impure" than pure in the hobby. I will put "" around them if necessary, and my breeding plan is to mate it with albino crosses anyways. I REALLY like the albino thayeri hybrids, but you cant tell me some should be given different status because they LOOK more like thayeri....
As far as I know there arent any locale breeders for thayeri, and I dont know any PURE thayeri morphs, are there any? I know producing morph crosses diminishes price for pure morphs if and when they are produced, but arent we just making prettier snakes? J

Hmmmmmm again I agree with you, as there does not appear to be many thayeri in captivity that resemble wild thayeri.

I imagine the point is, wild thayeri do indeed have locality characteristics, much like anyother kingsnake or colubrid.

Thayeri, have several basic phases that are naturally occuring. Leonis phase(alterna type extreme) Milksnake phase(speaks for itself) And the normal medium band width. Of course they have lots of shades of ground color. From dirt brown to yellow and buckskin(sandy orange or visa versa). They also have black band characteristics, like side notching. This normally occurs on both milksnake to leonis phases.

In the field, there does seem to be some pattern and color prejudices as to local. That is some locals are predominately one pattern type, and other locals may not be.

In my experience, I did not see a lot of variance in a population. That is, I found leonis to med. phases in one area, and milksnakes phases in other areas.

Unfortunately, I did find a gravid leonis that produced both milksnake and leonis offspring. But that was an exception and from a new area, I did not have much experience with.

The problem was, when brought into captivity, "thayeri" were bred to "thayeri" with no consideration as to local. In many cases, there were no choices.

They were only called thayeri because they were found south of Saltillo/Monterery and north of DR. Arroyo. And for no other reason.

In that area, they came for many many different locals totally seperated from eachother and from different habitats. From Dry low rocky hillsides, to dry oak woodland, to dry river valleys on the western side of the mountains, to tropical river valleys and tropical oak woodland, on the eastern drainage of the mountains.

As one of the founders for this species in captivity, I have mentioned, I do not see many of the characteristics that we used to call them thayeri in the first place.

So yes, in captivity, you pretty can call them anything you want.

In the case of your albino, it exhibits characters I have not seen in montane kings and their crosses(which I have done a few of) In fact, I a couple of decades ago, I had all montanes(known at the time) in one snake. Never did see an orange and black banded individual. But that does occur with milksnakes.(bicolored banding)

ALso, I did not "claim" those were calking/thayeri crosses, I simply stated they looked a bit like ones I have, so here are a couple. To make it clear, these are the parents of the ones that really looked you your normal "thayeri", but I did not take pics of them.

problem. No offense taken, I just wanted to post "better" pics(sorry, they still are not great). Honest representation is all you can ask, and I cant see someone with a "anery" grayband. Where did the "gene" come from? Of course will have better pics as she gets bigger. And for the albino, it was in a box at the NY show with its littermates. It was the only one that looked like that at all. The color doesnt look exactly right either....there seems to be more lavender than a typical albino form from the ruthveni influence....Again, time will tell.Jeff

Yea, as you know, I do agree with you on morphs and all such. They just need to be represented as what they are(currently). That includes, extremes of what people call pure(what some were in the past. The last half of that sentence is my thoughts, not what I expect others to do. It comes from me being a field guy.

ALso, If I found that albino for $25, you would have heard thunder from me buying that thing so fast. hahahahahahahaha who cares what it is. hahahahahahaha

In a recent post, I asked where did all the gene carriers from early breedings of Ruthvens and thayeri/alterna/pyro/ etc, go. I think your new purchases may have added to that answer. I would think that they would pop up all the time. Congrats of getting them. Cheers

" Honest representation is all you can ask, and I cant see someone with a "anery" grayband. Where did the "gene" come from? "

Just curious, what do you mean by the above? Did you mean to say 'I can't see someone with an anery grayband(breeding it to a thayeri)'?

Because there are anery graybands known from at least 2 localities, Black Gap and Sanderson, very reliably traced to wc's. There are also anery Hwy. 277 and possibly anery Juno graybands but I don't know the complete backround on them.

Also there was a line of mex mex X generic alterna hybrids that were anery.

I'm not saying your snake is or isn't a hybrid but I thought you might be interested in some backround on the anery gene present in alterna.

Anery alterna are common, even in wild collected snakes. The gene is present in animals from no less than 5 different localities.

>>problem. No offense taken, I just wanted to post "better" pics(sorry, they still are not great). Honest representation is all you can ask, and I cant see someone with a "anery" grayband. Where did the "gene" come from? Of course will have better pics as she gets bigger. And for the albino, it was in a box at the NY show with its littermates. It was the only one that looked like that at all. The color doesnt look exactly right either....there seems to be more lavender than a typical albino form from the ruthveni influence....Again, time will tell.Jeff
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http://www.hcu-tx.org

So you got the anery thayeri for $25 or you got the amel thayeri cross for $25? Or both? Either way it's a good deal, congrats.

But like a chic shopping its fun to get a bargain now and again,J

looks allot like some anery (or axanthic?) mex mex alterna crosses I used to have about 10 years ago.They were produced by Jim Kane.he had a lone female mex mex and a lone male generic alterna and he tossed them together and while the clutch was incubating he sold off the adults at a show.
Well, the clutched hatched and there was 3 anerys.I ended up with a couple anerys and a few poss hets (and every poss het turned out to be het.LOL). they look allot like that anery thayeri (mix-mex) you have there.
I sold most of the project to one guy and he is still selling them all over the place.

L8r

What I am amazed at is people here are actually talking about hybrids. This used to be the forum when you mentioned it you would be chased off and beaten with a stick if ever returned.

I guess people now see the importance of paying attention to hybrids so that "we" can evaliuate possible hybridization. Education on this subject is badly needed for those anti-hybrid and "pro" hybrids. Heck ,it is needed for anyone in the hobby to be properly informed . Sticking your head in the sand like an Osterich pretending its going away is, well, is plain dumb.
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"Yeah ya told me, and ya wrote it down too. But how the hell am I supposed to remember!"

If you cross two KINGSNAKES, you still have a KINGSNAKE.

In fact, most of the kings are there are CROSSES to kings outside their population, which makes them as much a cross as anyother cross.

If you don't believe me, just check with collection(preserved) managers. They will not or should not accept specimens that area products of different populations. Which means they are not to be used as representatives for any species.

Still, a king is a king and this is a kingsnake forum. Does it say getulus forum anywhere???? Or pure getulus anywhere?

Also, for my education, why is the hybrid discussion group, not called a forum???????????

Now, if you were going to draw silly lines in the sand, then maybe a ratsnake/kingsnake or a kingsnake/gophersnake, should have their own forums. You know, halfway between the kingsnake forum and the pit and ratsnake forums. Heck I don't know, I just trying to figure this place out.

Still a king to a king EQUALS a king. Cheers

OHHhh Boy!

Let the good times roll!

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"Yeah ya told me, and ya wrote it down too. But how the hell am I supposed to remember!"

a king bred to a king is still a king... thanks for the reality check. MANY here feel crossing king ssp. creates hybrids roflmao we need more unadulterated truths posted... thank you sir may i/we have another
FR for president!!!

,,,,,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

A "EXTREME HYPO" Hondo het for albino bred to a reverse Okeetee corn.
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B