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Questions about pastel red tail

JeniNicole83 Nov 04, 2007 09:39 AM

I will be getting 2 pastel red tails next year and trying to find some good information. I plan on building their cage. Could I make a living vivarium for them? My first thought was to build one tank that would fit one of them when grown, but putting a section down the middle to house them both in while building the second one.

I do plan on one male and one female, although I have no breeding intentions.

I am thinking of creating a room just for the snakes. I currently have a baby ball python. Now will humidity and temp ranges be the same for the boas as the python? I really wanted to use a wall in the living room for the snakes, but my boyfriend plans on a kingsake and that will make 4 in the living room. Take up too much room, so my idea is instead of taking out the back bedroom to just make it into the snake room (he won't let me use half the garage that we just pile junk into!).

How big should their new homes be? I would like to make it where for the most part they are going to be in the same tank their whole life. I don't mind sectioning it off so it doesn't seem to big while they are little. I have looked at some designs, but I mostly find is tall ones intead of long ones. Are there any snakes that benefit from tall over long?

Sorry for the rambling....I have more questions, but will wait till later to post as this came out longer than I intended!

Replies (14)

jhsulliv Nov 04, 2007 06:15 PM

First and foremost, the number one rule of boa husbandry is to NEVER house more than one together unless for breeding purposes. Boas are solitary by nature and polygamous as far as breeding is concerned. Keeping them together can cause undue stress on both and unwanted litters of babies when housing a male and a female together.

As far as building a cage is concerned, I personally wouldn't attempt it, but then again I am not a pro with the carpentry skills. With the number of attractive cages available (Boaphile, Cages by Design, AP, etc) that are pre-made, I see no reason to build a cage. These cage makers have herping and cage building experience that makes buying one of their products an easy choice IMHO as generally all the weaknesses of cages have been thought of and addressed (temperature, humidity, weight, aesthetics, etc). Just my two cents.

JeniNicole83 Nov 04, 2007 07:36 PM

They will by housed in one tank that has a divider down the middle to keep them seperated.

My python we only had to build the top for as we are using. We got a 50 gallon aquarium for $15 (went ahead and paid $20 since we didn't have change).

I just would prefer to build their cages. For us it would end up being cheaper than buying 2 more. I have until at least May to do it. I've looked up a lot of information regarding building. My boyfriend and dad knows how to do things like that. I like that it can be customized to fit where they are going to go, and it's something that my boyfriend and I can do together.

Jennifer

jscrick Nov 05, 2007 09:59 AM

From your previous post it's obvious you are a novice to Boids and snake husbandry in general. I think (strictly my opinion) you are more focused on the asthetics, room decor aspect, rather than that of the snake's welfare. There are many excellent inexpensive publications available at retail pet stores that deal with the subject. I suggest you read a few books before you go through a whole lot of unnessessary gyrations and wind up with something that is inefficient and detrimental to your snake's well being.
jsc

JeniNicole83 Nov 05, 2007 10:19 AM

From your previous post it's obvious you are a novice to Boids and snake husbandry in general. I think (strictly my opinion) you are more focused on the asthetics, room decor aspect, rather than that of the snake's welfare. There are many excellent inexpensive publications available at retail pet stores that deal with the subject. I suggest you read a few books before you go through a whole lot of unnessessary gyrations and wind up with something that is inefficient and detrimental to your snake's well being

Yes, I am a novice. I take no offense to your opinions. I have been completely focused on the welfare of the snake that I currently have. Which has included not being gone from home more than an hour at a time until I figure out why the humidity is so high in my tank that my ball is in. As for the boas, I'm doing all the research I can to properly build these cages. But I see no reason as to why I can't find the information (through reading and asking) to build proper cages for the boas that I'll be getting next year.

I have searched for books on boas and pythons at our pet stores, book stores, and library. No luck. Now I'm having to search online and order books (which I do have intentions of doing).

Until then, I'm reading what I can online and asking questions that I think of. Which I do understand I have a lot to learn.

Jennifer

jscrick Nov 05, 2007 11:18 AM

Well for one thing, you have completely discounted and ignored some very good advise already given.
Let me guess, you're one of those people that continue to ask the same quesion over and over again, until you get the answer you're looking for.

Here is a list of a few those inexpensive informational books I've mentioned:

1) THE BOA CONSTRICTOR MANUAL; Philippe de Vosjoli, Roger Klingenburg DVM, Jeff Ronne; The Herpetocultural Library, Advanced Vivarium Systems, 2004.

2) BOAS IN CAPTIVITY, Vincent P. Russo, Professional Breeder Series, ECO Herpetological Publishing & Distribution, 2007.

3) RED-TAILED BOAS AND RELATIVES, R. D. Bartlett and Patricia Bartlett, Barron's Reptile Keeper's Guides, 2003.

These books can be purchased online through various "Herp Supply" dealers on Kingsnake.com, such as the BEAN FARM. Some, if not all are also available through Amazon.com.

jsc

JeniNicole83 Nov 05, 2007 11:36 AM

Well for one thing, you have completely discounted and ignored some very good advise already given.
Let me guess, you're one of those people that continue to ask the same quesion over and over again, until you get the answer you're looking for.

As for this particular topic, may I ask what really good advice I have been given that I "have completely discounted and ignored"? There's really only been 2 different things I have been told. One, not to house them together. They will not be "together", they will be seperated the entire time expect during shipping. Second was that it'd be better to buy their tank than to build one. Which if I can't properly build one, then yes, I will buy them.

I have seen so many different answers regarding different topics. Different things work for different people. So I'm not really looking for an answer *I'm* looking for, but different ideas that worked for different people. The more I can find out the better.

Jennifer

jscrick Nov 05, 2007 12:22 PM

I was referring to buying a cage -vs- building a cage.
Isn't that what I was talking about earlier?
jsc

JeniNicole83 Nov 05, 2007 12:29 PM

I had one post saying to buy instead of build, and one person agreeing. If I have the means to build a proper home for them, what is wrong with building? I didn't realize that wanting to build my own was such a problem as long as I've done my research.

Jennifer

bcijoe Nov 05, 2007 10:57 PM

backwards...

Regardless of age or experience, I see some questionable behavior on both ends. But this isn't personal, this is about the boas, right???

Ok, so, you've been suggested not to house them together, or build a cage which will be housing them together, which is what you wanted to do, no?

There are MANY reasons why they shouldn't be housed together, there are also many ways to get them to live together which will lead to many complications, wasted time and effort on your part.

They shouldn't be housed together, period.
They can be, the cage can be designed for this, but it will take a considerable amount of effort, time, money, and more to do so.
We're talking atleast double of everything, which is the easy part.

The hard part is all the time and effort you'll be spending watching over them and taking SO MANY precautions so that they don't accidentally get into problems.

I mean, afterall, come feeding time, they don't see each other as siblings, and wait to share their food.

They smell the prey, and whatever is close to them IS that prey.

They will strike and wrap, then you have problems.

Seperating them will take time, patience, maybe two people, maybe hot water, maybe a stick (just throwing possibilites out there), maybe more. The result could be you being bitten and wrapped, one or both snakes bleeding, with lacerations, scars (which lead to discoloration, possible infection, etc.), broken teeth, bloody mouths, broken ribs on the snakes from being wrapped, possible asphyxiation, the possibility of one eating the other, which almost AWAYS results in BOTH dying, and much more. Very easily can prove fatal in many ways.

To properly feed two snakes being housed together, and I mean to avoid ALL POSSIBILITES of problems from feeding, this could mean instead of a 10-20 minute feeding session, it could take 2 hours or more.
Just a little example...

(seperating both before they get a chance to even smell the prey, preparing prey, feeding both, waiting atleast 30-60 minutes after they have fed to calm down, attempting to put them back in their cage without you getting bitten or them regurging, observing them for atleast 30-60 minutes after being in the cage because if they even smell the faintest wiff of prey on eachother, it's feeding time again for them!!! Then GOOD LUCK!)

A tall cage could be used, afterall, they have proven to sometimes be a bit arboreal in the wild, but it is not practical, and not the best enclosure.

One reason would be trying to remove this snake that will wrap on everything in the tank as you're pulling it out. Another being less floor space, which is what they do mostly utilize.

A tall cage would also be very difficult to heat and keep humid properly.

If you did put them both in one cage, with a divider, you might as well have two cages, because you will need double of everything. Supplies, electronics, heating elements, temp/humidity cages/control, water, hides, substrate, etc., etc., etc. It would be nearly impossible for them to thermoregulate considering the size and space restrictions.
This is impractical, amongst other things, for many reasons.

You will eventually spend more time and money than it is worth, and you will spend even more time and effort trying to maintain this. It will not be that easy, not as easy as seperate containers. Nowhere near as easy as proper cages.

You know why I switched from home made enclosures to professional enclosures like Boaphiles? Not because my snakes asked for them, or because I hit the lottery, or because I thought spending $300 a cage as opposed to building one for $100 was cool, I did it for one main reason.

It cut down the cleaning time of maintaining 50 snakes from more than a week, to only a couple of hours!!! That's because almost everything was already done for me, or built in a way that made it much easier to do so!
And now that I have 250 snakes, and work for a week to maintain them, I can't even imagine what it would be like if I never bought professional enclosures! I don't even want to think about it! I would NEVER be able to catch up, and would NEVER be where I am today.

You say you have their best interest in mind, and wouldn't mind checking up on them, but when you are checking every 30 minutes to an hour because you HAVE to, it's not fun. That's not something anyone here wants to do. Doesn't make sense. These plastic cages are built for efficiency, amongst other things. It kind of takes care of itself. It's designed this way so you don't have to do all of it manually.

Wanting to build your own cage is great, finding a way to do it yourself, cheap, online, etc., is even better.
Not keeping the boa in mind is not so great. Afterall, it does seem that your main concern is having it fit your living room wall and look nice.

I don't mean to also come down on you, I just want to point out what was said and what you may have missed, or why it is important.

I'm sure I also left out a great deal! I'm sure many others can post many other reasons why it isn't a great idea.

Please do read more on caging, housing, living requirements, care and feeding for these animals in particular. Whenever you see a restriction or a mandate on how something should be, ask yourself why and make sure you don't proceed until you have that understanding.

Maybe you'll get to the point wheere you can pull this off safely, but if you are looking to save money and space, that probably won't be the case.

Either way, please don't let this deter your ambitions in anyway, it is great to want to learn and find out what/why/how and so on. And this IS the place to do it, so keep asking all the questions you want. Just please do pay attention to the answers, don't discount them just because they've been said before, or are said in a way that isn't favorable. If it gets down to that, it's probably for a good reason 8)

Best Wishes, Joe Rollo - Bci Joe

PS - I'm always available for assistance 8)

-----
Thanks and take care - Joe Rollo
'Tis not the stongest of the species that will eventually survive, nor the most intelligent, but the one most responsive to change' Charles Darwin

JeniNicole83 Nov 06, 2007 10:59 AM

I have at least 6-8 months to learn before the boas are even brought home. That's why I'm trying to learn what I can. Size is really determining where they are going to go. And yes, if they are going to be in the living room, it would be preferable they look nice. That is mostly because my ex already doesn't like the idea of one snake, and he has been known to call DHS on me when I refused to let our son go to his place (which I'm doing again).

Jennifer

jscrick Nov 05, 2007 11:25 AM

I have been doing this a while. Photo from 1968. Where were you in 1968?

jsc

JeniNicole83 Nov 05, 2007 11:55 AM

Well, considering my mother was 5 years old, not even thought of.

jscrick Nov 05, 2007 01:49 PM

Sorry, that post wasn't directed at you, specifically.
I'm relatively new here at this forum and wanted to put that up for everyone. Time for a little shameless self-promotion, I guess.
It's just your insistence on building your own cage brought back memories of the old days, when home made wooden cages were all we had.
Things are so much better now with plastics and technology.
jsc

Slithering_Serpents Nov 04, 2007 07:01 PM

Don't house them together. You could build two cages if you're handy but you would benefit from a cage building forum for that. Thereare a lot of small things to concider. You really can't save that much money building you're own cage, and wood doesn't last as long as plastic either. You still have to spend for heat and lighting and all the same hardware. The only reason to build a cage is because you really want to or becuse you can make it look better than a plastic cage. If you're thinking of paying someone else to do it it will definitely be chaper to buy a ready made snake cage. I don't keep balls but the temp can easily be controlled with heaters on the differnet cages if needed, humidity can be controlled by spraying etc. They should be 4' long X 2' wide minimum, more if the female is over 7 feet. The height can be 12" or more but must be efficient at keeping heat where the snake is, on the bottom (no tall cages). Arboreal snakes (those that live in trees) use those tall cages, they are bad for boas. Housing small boas while cage building can be simple and easy with plastic tubs. Melt some ventilation holes, put some substrate in, and a bowl of water and you have a snake cage.

Good luck
-----
Caden Chapman
slithering.serpents@gmail.com
http://slitheringserpents.com

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