Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I started a box turtle colony last fall and I have been finding baby box turtles all year. Its been fun but the babies arnt doing so well. I have been keeping them inside because I figured it was best to raise them up a little before they go outside.

None of them are really eating that much. A friend of mine told me they might not eat till next spring, but I dont believe that. Im not really sure what I should do. I've tried different setups, but none seem to work very well. What do yall do with your babies?

Thanks,
Andrew

I'm in Maryland. I keep mine indoors in a cool, unheated room and just let them dig in. They've pretty much become completely inactive now and will stay that way until spring. I just keep the substrate slightly damp and leave them alone. They won't be eating from now until March. At that point, I'll raise their temperature, spray them down until they start to move around, soak them a little, then start feeding them again.

your method makes sence to me brother, you must be familiar with my favorite rule too, KISS-Keep It Simple Stupid
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1.0 pastel ball python
0.1 mojave ball python
0.1 normal ball python
0.2 3-toed box turtles
2.3 eastern box turtles
0.0.5 3-striped mud turtle
1.0 northern diamondback terrapin
2.1 tiger salamander
1.1 red-sided garter
1.0 anerythristic red-sided garter
1.1 Iowa snow plains garter
1.1 Het butter stripe cornsnake
0.1 anerythristic motley cornsnake
1.1 Blue garter (Puget Sound)

keep them warm, and make sure they have plenty of humidity, i put mine in warm water and least twice a day...

I keep my hatchlings outdoors quarantined in a very damp, humid, if not muddy at times area with several inches of leaf litter. If I was to keep them indoors I would keep them an a wet substrate with lots of leaf litter, mulch or something similar to keep the humidity high. I would have the heat at about 75-80 but not hotter as they are very prone to dehydrating.

You have to either give them 'winter' conditions (cool, dark and damp) and allow them to brumate, or 'summer' conditions (warm, bright and humid) and feed them.
Whatever your choice, don't do it in a half hearted fashion.

Wow, Thanks for the input!

So I guess letting them hibernate is okay. Ill keep them in my guarage and keep them damp. Ill just basically keep them on the same rutine as my adults.

Once it warms up, should I put them outside or keep em' in?

I have one hatchling I raised that is now 4-years-old and in perfect health and form. I also have two hatchlings a few weeks old now from a mortally injured female on the road. These two little EBTs are eating like PIGS. They seem to fit more food into themselves every other day than what is physically possible in the space of their little shells. I kept my 4-year-old active the first winter and let him hibernate each year afterwards. I think keeping them active and growing this first winter may be a benefit.
I keep mine in a plastic round "dish" about 1-foot wide. I keep in slanted, and keep water in about 3/4 of it (the one side being deeper). There is a lid over 3/4 of the structure, and a large blob of live Sphagnum moss in the middle with 1/2 a clay flowerpot over 1/2 of the "blob" of moss. They are kept quite wet, almost semi-aquatic (atlhough they can "dry out" on the upper side if they desire, but I never see them there). This is easy to clean, as I can rinse out the moss, give the container a quick clean including a wipe with a paper towel, adn add fresh water. They are kept in the high 70s and they are super active and pound down any and all food....wild worms the most common, but also wild centipedes, crickets, sow bugs, etc. All fresh caught so their guts are loaded with whatever they are eating. My first one also LOVED small aquarium snails....it would crunch them shell and all. I don't have that many snails at the moment for these two. I don't personally use a UVa/uvb bulb, but I do make sure they get out into natural sunlight, for about 1/2 hour periods once or twice per week (under supervision). This is possible most of the winter, even in NJ, by putting them in a warm, sheltered container against the south side of a buiding in mid-day. My first turtle has a perfectly formed, hard shell and these hatchlings also have nice hard shells. Note, this is only my own experience, and others will vary.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v468/Woodnative/001.jpg
Photo, hopefully this link will work!

.

I do the same thing. I never could understand/justify the use of UVA/B bulbs for hatchlings. Given their behaviour, it makes no sense whatsoever. Some people swear up and down that full spectrum lighting is required, but if an actual controlled experiment were conducted (which it hasn't, and is the only way anyone can say that it is beneficial/required or not) there would likely be no significant difference in "quality" of growth or health of hatchlings (provided all nutritional requirements are met).

There are two major factors that point to the futility of full spectrum lighting: habitat and behaviour. These animals are found in forests, savanna/grassland areas, etc. where, due to the vegetation, very little sunlight actually reaches the substrate. This is moot anyway, because, as we can all attest to, hatchling turtles remain buried as much as possible during the day. When they are foraging, it is likely crepuscular activity and limited to shuffling around leaf litter and other vegetation that affords some level of protection. Any hatchling that is out wandering in full sunlight would be very quickly removed from the gene pool. Given this, it is very easy to see how evolution would favour those that remain buried and, thus, access to full spectrum lighting during this stage is likely far from required.

It's one of those things that probably "can't hurt" but all logic says that it does nothing and any slight effect can be achieved by taking the animal out for a soak in the sun once every one or two weeks. To me, full spectrum lighting for hatchling box turtles is just another waste of resources and energy.

Ryan, I'm suprised. You once stated that you were a strong proponent of providing full spectrum lighting to diurnal species, inluding box turtles.

I had a conversation this past weekend on this very topic with two highly experienced and successful turtle keepers. Neither of them use full spectrum lighting on their young box turtles. Like Woodnative and RMB (based upon photos of their beautiful and healthy young turtles), my acquaintances' turtles are healthy, smooth, and pretty.

My opinion has recently changed on the subject. I used to think that it was absolutely a necessity. Isn't that what science is? Data, interpret, practical application, new data, reinterpret, new application. I had seen SO MANY young box turtles with deformities. Even many pictures posted on here of supposedly healthy young turtles show "odd" growth. It seems to me that the vast majority of captive raised box turtles develop growth problems. I chose to recommend all that people could possibly do. If there is a deficiency in the diet, which is undoubtedly common in captive turtles, full spectrum lighting may fill in the "calcium gap". If, like you, people provide a vast and varied diet including wild caught creatures, they may not need full spectrum lighting. I think that is clear.

For me, it has been very clear that full spectrum lighting has helped my hatchlings. I've been doing this for more than 20 years, and I noticed a vast improvement when I purchased my first ESU Daylight. My hatchlings are more active, eat better, and even bask under the lights (in the Superman pose just like a Slider).

I can't duplicate nature. Nobody knows what hatchling box turtles do in the wild...they're almost impossible to study. I've tried. Are they usually found hidden?...yes. Have I found them out and about?...yes. I'm only using the tools available in order to raise the healthiest hatchlings. No doubt, nature is our guide, but we shouldn't fool ourselves into thinking that we are duplicating nature. I am not saying that this is what you think, I am only outlining my line of thinking.

I, and many others, have had the benefit of seeing how the addition of full spectrum lighting has changed our results. I typically raise about three dozen hatchlings comprised of various box turtle species every year. Most I only keep until they are about 3 inches, but I have kept many beyond that over the years. Could it be that you are providing something else that we aren't?...absolutely! That may be why you don't need full spectrum lighting.

Some people need it. Others can probably do without it. I went without it for 15 years. It has so improved my results that I now think it is well worth it. Remember, there is a difference between what you need to provide and what you should provide. Each keeper must make those judgements. For some, it may not be a waste. Personally, it has been the best addition to my hobby...hands down.

I don't place hatchlings outdoors to sun. It seems stressful for them, it is too time consuming for me, there's a risk of overheating, and I've had a few hatchlings get picked off by Blue Jays. If a keeper can do it...great!

I respect your position. I hope you can respect mine also. You have clearly had good results without full spectrum lighting. I have clearly seen an improvement since I added it. I will continue to recommend it for novice keepers. Redundancy is not a bad thing, especially when a keeper is first starting out. Even slight deficiencies may lead to negative results.

One other problem...at what point to you provide full spectrum lighting?...never? I keep my turtles indoors until they are about 3 inches. Others keep their turtles indoors for their entire lives. Hatchlings hide most of the time, but a 3 incher is active at the surface quite a bit.

For those concerned about energy usage, there are compact flourescent UVA/UVB bulbs now available for a relatively small price.

I look forward to reading your opinions of this post. Please know that I only mean to share my opinion, and not attack others' opinions...well, unless they are entirely uninformed and obnoxious.

I probably won't be able to dig up the references, but I do remember reading literature and studies that demonstrate that UVB light 'bounces around' quite a bit and can therefore penetrate otherwise shaded areas. In other words, a baby turtle may still get significant enough amounts of light in spite of the fact that it is presumed to spend so much time in shaded places.
Also, I have wondered frequently whether or not animals are affected by full spectrum light simply by *seeing* it, rather than by having full exposure to it (think: sitting in the shade but looking out on sunny scenery). Think of humans with S.A.D....and how bright light can affect mood and activity levels.

I am always surprised at the number of deformed, captive-raised box turtles I see on the net. My experience is, of course, limited and I am always learning.
I think that there is good scientific evidence that they need the UVA/UVB. The bulbs will provide that. For me it is easier to get them outside once in a while, which appears to be sufficient. I know I am self-disciplined enough to do so, and do it the right way. I am always with them when I do it (prevent predation and escapes), and make sure they don't get too hot either. I think a bit of direct sun will provide as much UV as several hours under a bulb. Either way is fine, as long as they get it. Likewise with hatchlings in the wild, even if they come out only occasionally, they are still getting some UV.
The other major problem I think is diet. So many people use only prepared, commercial "turtle food", or the easily buyable mealworms and crickets. "Gut-loading" the latter certainly helps, but I think providing a mixture of freshly caught worms and insects will provide the best diet and help to ensure nothing is lacking. They are not only eating the worm, but also everything that is in the worm's gut (bits of plant material, soil and its associated elemenant, and so on).
This forum is a great learning tool, and I think it is important (and interesting) for each one of us to post our individual experience and observation on wild and captive boxies!

I've never raised a box turtle hatchling until now & I only have the one. I have not been using a UV/B bulb because up until a few weeks ago the baby stayed inside a black plastic herp hide box.
I have taken the baby outdoors for real sunlight many times in the last year though.
Now that baby has started coming out of the hide box on it's own it's really enjoyed outdoor romps more than ever. Frankly before the baby recently began to come out of the hide on it's own each time I would take the baby outside for sun the baby would try to find a place to hide.
I've tried to make up for lack of bulb with good diet and I've used a wide variety of foods and vitamin/mineral powders once or twice a week. So far so good, baby is looking really good right now.

I've used UV/B with my 11 year old mud turtle ever since he was a tiny baby and I've always wondered if it's doing any good or not.
He stays hidden all day every day unless he's hungry. He comes out of his hiding when he sees me only when he's hungry.
The 13 year old CB painted on the other hand spends hours & hours every day basking, he's always had the lighting. I assume it's doing it's job.
I don't use it with the nocturnal gecko or the albino frog.
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PHRatz

Very well put.

Mealworms are one of the worst food items for box turtles available. Because of their low price and easy access, I fear that they make up a very large part of most hatchling box turtles' diets.

Whatever you have done...keep it up. The turtle pictured is an absolute beauty.

I thought I’d make a separate reply and attempt to address everyone. By the way, great discussion everyone!

Ken, I am a very strong proponent of providing full spectrum lighting to diurnal species, including box turtles, provided the species (or the particular life stage) shows a demonstrable need as a result of their behaviour or habitat. There was a time when I used full spectrum lighting for hatchlings as I fell victim to the hype. Even during this brief time, I questioned its use, as it made no sense given the hatchling turtle’s behaviour and habitat. After actually putting some thought into it and discussing it with others, I decided that my hatchlings would not be exposed to artificial UVA/B.

I agree wholeheartedly, woodnative. I was careful to indicate that my position is dependent on all dietary requirements being met. I also agree with StephF that there is something to be said about exposure to a light cycle, if only to maintain the animal’s “rhythm”… My animals are indirectly exposed to a natural photoperiod.

Full spectrum lighting will certainly provide the turtle with at least some level of UVA/B exposure, but as mentioned, I have an aversion to wasteful devices when the same can be achieved by taking the animal outside for very short periods of time once or twice a week. Indeed, a focused effort to take the animal outside may in fact be superior as a result of the points I listed earlier (combined with the fact that bulbs are no comparison to actual sunlight and their efficacy deteriorates rather quickly).

Given what we know about hatchling box turtles, it seems rather silly to me to provide them with full spectrum lighting, when the same can be achieved with short sun exposures once or twice a week. I certainly am aware and advocate the importance of exposure (as the photobiosynthesis of vitamin D is desirable over absorption through the gastrointestinal tract, since there is a potential to achieve toxic levels). Of course, there are no studies that look at the amount of sun exposure required in hatchling box turtles to produce adequate amounts of vitamin D; however, there are plenty of studies on humans. In human babies, 30 minutes once a week is all that is required if the upper and lower extremities are exposed (Butte et al. 2002). I have had this same discussion with one of my colleagues (a herpetology Professor two doors down from me) and he shares the same reasoning. He’s been raising box turtles for 35 years (when one of his first graduate students left the lab leaving a bale of hatchling box turtles behind). For hatchlings, access to full spectrum lighting is a waste of resources and energy – take ‘em outside for a little bit each week, they’d never see more than that in the wild.

I didn’t mean for my post to come off as if artificial UVA/B does not work, it is certainly better than nothing. I did use the word futility, which does imply uselessness and I may have gone overboard there. There is a use, to be sure, but in my opinion, there are better, easier, and less wasteful alternatives. However, as implied in my original post, I agree that the usefulness and necessity of full spectrum lighting increases markedly when the husbandry is lacking in other areas (such as dietarily or never being exposed to actual sunlight). My original post was to question why so many people advocate constant exposure to full spectrum lighting when the same or better can be achieved with dedicated (and short) exposures once or twice a week, not whether hatchlings should be exposed to UVA/B at all.

The point at which I would begin providing box turtles with full spectrum lighting (if I were to keep them indoors, which I do not) is when I begin seeing behavioural differences that would indicate to me that they would be receiving significant amounts of UVA/B exposure in the wild. In addition, I would speculate that a CB hatchling box turtle is more likely to come out into the open compared to its wild counterpart, so this confounds the issue.

Once a week, during midday, I take my hatchlings outside for a soak in water that reaches a little more than half way up their carapace. I read a book while they sit there for about half an hour. They don’t thrash around or try to escape so I would consider this activity to not be too stressful for them. I believe this to be the best practice for the myriad of reasons I have discussed, and renders full spectrum lighting obsolete for my purposes and, dare I say, futile – at least in my house…

Redundancy is not a bad thing - I agree…

Butte, N.F., Lopez-Alarcon, M.G., Garza, C. 2002. Nutrient adequacy of exclusive breastfeeding for the term infant during the first six months of life. Geneva, Switzerland; World Health Organization 2002, pp. 26-30.

VERY well put. Informed and concise.

We don't disagree as much as I had previously thought. I thought you were using science in order to prove your point that artificial full spectrum lighting is entirely unnecessary.

Only anecdotal evidence is applicable at this point. Science hasn't given conclusions either way. We can try to look at their behavior and habitat, but much too little is known to form any conclusions there either. My limited anecdotal evidence is strongly in favor of providing artificial UVA/UVB lighting.

This is just my choice, nothing more. I prefer to allow the turtles constant access. They can hide beneath the thick layer of substrate and terra cotta caves or bask...it is up to them. I don't want to place them outdoors in direct sunlight at my whim. I want them to be able to choose. As you pointed out, there is probably no real harm from periods of full sun exposure due to the feedback controls that prevent toxicity.

My bulbs are about $20 each per year. To run them for 14 hours daily, year round, it costs less than $4.00 per year. And, the way I constructed the shelf on which the turtles live, I do not have to use any other heating elements.

In Southern US States, a young box turtle will cook in a matter of minutes in a sweater box in full sun...even in winter. Horribly, I know from experience...the sun shifted during cleaning more quickly than I thought it would.

I will still recommend artificial full spectrum lighting. And no, don't say "futile", hahaha.

Cheers

Hi Ken,

Yes, I could tell from your original reply that I needed to go back and correct some wrongs, as it was not exactly my intention to say that artificial full spectrum lighting is entirely unnecessary per se, rather that we can achieve the same or better results with very little effort. Actually, though, in my experience/opinion it does seem to be unnecessary. Perhaps I should say that it was not my intention to say that artificial full spectrum lighting is not entirely without utility.

Many care sheets flat out claim that artificial lighting is required at all times if kept indoors, neglecting to mention that the hatchling’s behaviour may preclude this practice, and that a better alternative (or at least equivalent) may be to take the animal outside for a brief period once a week. I would not advise allowing a hatchling to be exposed to full sun without some type of medium (i.e. water) to act as a buffer. As mentioned, I only allow them access to full sun while soaking and the body temperature/water temperature never exceeds 90F (and I begin with water that is in the low 90s).

My aversion to the bulbs (independent of the fact that they serve no purpose for my hatchlings) is not so much the cost of running them (though anything greater than $0 is worth considering), it is the fact that this is yet another product that has a rather large ecological footprint and can be done without. Fluorescent tubes are environmentally unfriendly to produce and even more so to discard.

From my experience, and applicable to my situation only, I feel it somewhat appropriate to stick to the word futile as I have yet to see a single hatchling sitting atop the sphagnum. Not once during the many hundreds of times I have checked in on them have I seen one anywhere but buried deep in the sphagnum during daylight hours, same goes for the box turtle nut down the hall…

Just for fun, I ran a quick test: I have a fairly sensitive light meter that I use to measure solar exposure of turtle nests in full sun compared to ones that become engulfed by an invasive strain of the common reed (Phragmites australis). I buried the meter under 5 cm of sphagnum (the minimum depth that I find my hatchlings) and turned on a nearly brand new ZooMed ReptiSun 5.0 that was positioned about 25 cm above the substrate. No reading on the meter. Of course, this all changes if people have hatchlings that for some reason are defying their natural tendency to remain buried. A similar situation occurs with our spiny softshell head-starting program. These particularly vulnerable animals have evolved over millions of years to remain buried at all costs (the hatchlings). To the researchers involved, it is agreed that it would be a futile practice indeed to provide full spectrum exposure to these animals that we never ever see (even when there are upwards of 50 hatchlings to a 32 qt. Sterilite container).

Nevertheless, I think the best thing brought up thus far is your point of redundancy not being a bad thing. In this situation, artificial lighting certainly cannot hurt. The only likely outcomes are a neutral effect or positive effect.

All the best.

P.S. I likely would also recommend artificial full spectrum lighting to new keepers if only to allow them more room to make mistakes in the turtle's diet, but with the aforementioned caveats.

My hatchlings stay buried for only a month or so. After that, they are very active at the surface. Perhaps this is due to our different methods of heating. You heat from below, and mine get a fair amount of radiant heat from above. I think it is strange that our hatchlings have such different behaviors.

I see your points, and am glad to read your opinions. I have enjoyed the exchange. Thanks.

As did I, Ken.
Perhaps it is due to the different heating methods that we are observing such different behaviour. If this is the case, then your method would certainly work best for you and mine for me. Very interesting discussion indeed and precisely what these forums are for
Thank you.

"My hatchlings stay buried for only a month or so. After that, they are very active at the surface. Perhaps this is due to our different methods of heating. You heat from below, and mine get a fair amount of radiant heat from above. I think it is strange that our hatchlings have such different behaviors."

My single box turtle is heated from above too, and in all the time I have had him/her, the turtle stays buried.

"I prefer to allow the turtles constant access. They can hide beneath the thick layer of substrate and terra cotta caves or bask...it is up to them. I don't want to place them outdoors in direct sunlight at my whim. I want them to be able to choose. As you pointed out, there is probably no real harm from periods of full sun exposure due to the feedback controls that prevent toxicity."

You have a similar philosophy to mine, Ken. I try to give them a variety of options and let them self-regulate as much as possible.

Yes, Steph, I remember that we have discussed this very issue before. I also remember that your hatchlings will bask like mine often do. I wonder how many others experience this.

Your "box turtle factory" headstart project would be a great tool for studying this very issue. You were raising, what, 50 every year? Also, Joe would be just the type of person to perform the study. Of course, you both probably have too much already on your plates.

Food for thought, certainly. I'll mention it to him.

One thing that I find interesting is that, in the morning here when we remove the covers on the setups and turn the lights on, the hatchlings can frequently be seen in what my DH refers to as their little fox-holes: their bodies are completely covered but they are poking their heads out of the substrate. They will duck their heads in to hide, but they leave a telltale little hole in the peatmoss. I'll see if I can't snap a photo.

Like this?
Link

Or this?
Link

I got 10 hatclings this year from my adults. Last year I got only one and he is going strong. What I do is I keep them inside in a 10 gallon tank with one side of the tank I use Repti Bark and on the other is just the bottom of the tank. I have a small water dish that I change daily. I have a uvb lamp and a basking light above them. The lights go on at about 7:00-7:30 AM and off at around 11:00 PM. When I turn on the light I get the bark nice and wet with a misting bottle. I also put them in a bath at least 3 times a week and I put vitamin A drops and also a few drops of Reptisafe which is a product that Zoomed makes. I just recently started using this product because I figured it couldnt hurt. I feed them every other day usually. They have eaten silkworms, waxworms, wiggler worms, and also the canned box turtle food that Zoomed makes and also Reptomin baby the mini floating sticks. I put some in a cup of water and let them get nice and soft they seem to really like that, I also sprinkle Retocal on the food so that they get the proper vitamins. I hope this is helpful to you.

I bet the guys at the pet shop smile when they see you coming
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1.0 pastel ball python
0.1 mojave ball python
0.1 normal ball python
0.2 3-toed box turtles
2.3 eastern box turtles
0.0.5 3-striped mud turtle
1.0 northern diamondback terrapin
2.1 tiger salamander
1.1 red-sided garter
1.0 anerythristic red-sided garter
1.1 Iowa snow plains garter
1.1 Het butter stripe cornsnake
0.1 anerythristic motley cornsnake
1.1 Blue garter (Puget Sound)