Reptile & Amphibian Forums

This is a snake my partner found in our study area about two weeks ago.

I finally got him to take pics, hahahahahaha he rarely does, and he rarely pays attention to pattern. Ok, thats wrong, he normally do not care about interspecies variation. hahahahaha

We have seen lots of hybrids in rattlesnakes. The problem is they are very hard to identify. The reason is, or at least appears to be. In nature, finding a current hybrid is very rare, what we see ALL the time is hybrid characteristics, many generations later.

You need to think about that a tiny bit. Lets say, there are 15,000 pairs of blacktails in our study area(25 lineal miles). If five pairs are hybrid pairings, what is the chances you have of viewing that or seeing results of that? the answer is, almost zero. That means, in order to see something like that, you would have to find many many hundreds of neonates in that given year. After that year, any surviving hybrids would most likely breed normals, then they would breed normals, etc. So that trait quickly washes out.

Several generations later, these hybrids are expressed as "non-typicals". You know, individuals that mostly look like they are suppose to, but have some odd characters.

We have an area where mohaveXdiamondback crosses, are fairly common. In most cases, they appear as odd mohaves or odd diamondbacks. But every now and then we find one that screams hybrid. As this area is on the way to our study area, we have seen a few.

To compare this, were we find any one of those species, where the others do not exsist, we do not see atypicals. We normally see very normal textbook individuals.

Anyway, as none of these species are a species we are concerned with, we have not paid much attention to this until recently(bored I guess) So recently we have been keeping an eye out and taking pics when we can.

So heres a recent pic of what appears to be a blacktailed/diamondback cross.

What is odd is, this is not restricted to rattlesnakes. Hybrids are appearing to be fairly common. And kings are no exception(I had to mention kings, hahahahahaha) Just something to think about. Enjoy the pic

[What is odd is, this is not restricted to rattlesnakes.]

Cool post! From what I understand, this is what takes place in rat snakes where ranges overlap. The gulf hammock rat is considered an established form of a yellow x grey. Odd thing is, a "purist" would scoff at the idea of breeding a yellow or a grey with a gulf hammock. As if the gulf hammock in the wild, at the outer reaches of its range, would turn down such a mate!

As far as species hybridization, I remember seeing a photo of a corn x gopher. The head of the snake was "incomplete"--there was a gap that extended from the nostril down to the mouth--as if carved out so the mouth was not complete (wish I could post a pic of it). Not sure what health complications could arise from that, but it's that sort of thing that freaks me out about those sorts of hybrids--also because terrestrial snakes have 50% less vertebrae than arboreals, etc.) Curious as to long term studies on those sorts of hybrid snakes.

not the same.i understand what you're saying about purists scoffing at such a mix-'williamsi'x spiloides or quadrivittata(though imho i think it would be silly to scoff at such a natural pairing),but you're talking intergrades(two subspecies mating) here,not hybrids(two separate species) such as what here is suspected as a molossusxatrox pairing......for that matter 'williamsi' is not even recognized as a valid subspecies at this point,but rather an intergrade of yellow and gray rats..the corn/gopher,that is another matter;a hybrid indeed but you know those do produce viable offspring,opposing conventional wisdom re:hybrids...weird about the cleft/hair lip thing,too.
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"with head raised regally,and gazing at me with lidless eyes,he seemed to question with flicks of his long forked tongue my right to trespass on his territory" Carl Kauffeld

Thanks for the clarification--my bad for not knowing the rattlesnakes involved were two separate species.

good looking snake Frank.

HKM needs to take more photos and post more. Tell him I said so haha
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http://www.hcu-tx.org

I will tell him Joe, he will be here in a few minutes, hes doing a ride along with me today. hahahahahahaha

I often wonder when I read many of these posts. It appears some folks think nature is perfect and the names we give them are perfect. Then they base their thoughts and actions off of that.

Nature is a river that always changing. Which means, what these animals are now, is not what they were in the past.

HKM explains to me that many of the academic viewpoints are question are based on wanting things to straitforward and clean, and not dirty and cluttered/complicated.

Basically, a genus or species or subspecies(if they still exsist) are never clean, they are always dirty. Cheers

Cool snake, sure looks like a hybrid.

In regards to species/subspecies I saw something ineresting on TV. It was about staghorn corals - apparently there are hundreds of species/subspecies that constantly interbreed.

This has lead some coral-ologists (hahaha!) to come up with the concept of "Superspecies". That is, a huge complex of related forms that constantly interbreed and produce new forms that may be better-adapted to local conditions.

THis certainly happens with other groups - sunfish (bream) come to mind, where natural hybrids are fairly common.

Maybe this Superspecies concept could apply to some snakes as well? Northamerican rats for example.

Just a thought.

John D
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I am so not lesdysxic!

0.1 Creamsicle Cornsake "Yolanda"
1.0 Bairds Ratsnake "Steely Dan"
0.1 Desert Kingsnake "FATTY"
0.1 Black Rat "Roberta" RELEASED!!!

fast track to speciation. Rats, Gophers, Glossies, Kings and Milk species were probably all helped along by varying degrees hybridization at some point in the past (most colubrids?) That's my hypothethis.

Go back to what Frank said about how a first generation hybrid is pretty easy to spot, but after it's washed back a few generations it gets tougher. You can see the same thing in captivity in just a few generations.

I bet even Dinosaurs hybridized.
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http://www.hcu-tx.org

I would be willing to bet some posters here thought about hybridizing at some point,lol. That genetic drive is hard to figure sometimes.

uh,what!?lol....actually now that i think about it,you're right,judging from what some former co-workers have said about 'sheep anatomy',ahem....lol sorry,i wish i was joking but i'm not.....anyway,this thread makes me wonder how much of a role things like racism play in preventing beneficial gene flow in homo sapiens...
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"with head raised regally,and gazing at me with lidless eyes,he seemed to question with flicks of his long forked tongue my right to trespass on his territory" Carl Kauffeld

There is surely better ways to understand this then hybrids do not "ever" occur.

The problem with super species is, they occur in a climate thats connected by pathways. like ocean currents. They can move from one area(species) to another area(similar species). Which differs greatly with such species as our ratsnakes, who are realitively stuck where they are. Yes, an individual can catch a ride and land in another ratsnake species range, where it will become assimilated quickly(the borg). There is just not the numbers. Cheers

Was it The Borg that were always saying:
"Resistance is Futile"???

The aquatic environment does lend itself to braodcasting eggs and sperm. I'm glad our snakes don't do that. Could get messy.

JD
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I am so not lesdysxic!

0.1 Creamsicle Cornsake
1.0 Bairds Ratsnake
0.1 Desert Kingsnake
1.1 Eastern Kingsnakes

Yes it was, and I did get my new camera. So soon I will posting some BETTER pics.

I took some today with the monitors and its already amazing.

So look for some fall shots soon. Cheers

Thanks for posting Frank.

(pic wouldn't show for me so I pasted it here)
:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!

crimsonking.piczo.com/

Yes tell Hugh he needs to share some pics, lol!
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Todd Hughes

Well Todd, he cannot share them if he does not take them, hahahahahahahahaha. Hugh was over yesterday and we discussed why he took that pic. He said, I wouldn't have, BUT YOU ASKED ME to take pics of any oddballs, hahahahahahahahahaha. I then asked, If I did not ask you to, would you have taken those pics, he answered most likely not. hahahahahahahahahaha

I guesss I am the elected team photographer. I just bought a new better camera, then I just canceled the order. And I am going to see if I can find one today locally.

The camera I use I bought five years ago and has held up extremely well and has taken a huge amount of field punishment. hahahahahahaha like being pounded into the dirt while on the chase and it just keeps working. But its time to upgrade.

So hopefully in the near future and next year you will be seeing some much better pics(I hope if I can drive the camera well)

Here are two pics from a few weeks back, Hugh and I found seven of these in one day. These pics are in situ and the snakes had not been touched by human hands. We never touched them. If my dang old camera had more pixels, I could have done really well. But they are still OK. Enjoy

Very cool herps, and you guys just don't know how much it means to see locality stuff from "another world" so to speak! Tell Hugh he and you make great contributions to this forum and they are very much appreciated by lots of folks all over the world! And tell him not to get a swollen head, LOL!

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Todd Hughes