Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hi all,

Like probably most of you, I'm always on the hunt for "better". This includes substrate options.

I've seen a lot of positive input on cypress mulch. As far as its "herp husbandry tech specs", yeah it's pretty good. Its biggest "technical" drawback is probably its coarseness, which means when you spot-scoop you remove quite a bit of your substrate.

However there are other drawbacks to using cypress. Chiefly (through my filter as a wildlife biologist), mulching bald and pond cypress is not a sustainable practice; they grow ridiculously slowly, even here in Florida. Techniques for their natural regeneration are not perfected, either. Before the development of mulch as a product stream, timber harvests in bald and pond cypress' range tended to leave the cypress on the landscape, unless they were of sawlog size (which down here takes about a century). Now, with the mulch market, there's an economic incentive to cut younger regenerating cypress stands, leading to a homogenization of the landscape (instead of unharvested "islands", we see wall-to-wall clearcuts). Do you know how many herp and other wildlife taxa use(d) these cypress stands?

Luckily we have an alternative that lacks this environmental drawback and is, I believe, superior in its "tech specs": coir. I'm sure you all know it, but have you tried the "chunky" stuff, in bulk? It looks and acts a lot like cypress, but the largest pieces are smaller, so spot-scooping removes a lot less of your substrate.

I'm buying 5kg compressed bales for about $12; these expand to just about fill a 20-gal tote (compare this to the little fine-fiber bricks at your local pet shop for $5 apiece). Hydroponics shops sell the stuff. They're all over the internet.

I don't actually read the rules of posting; this may not fly, but the product I've been buying is:

Botanicare CocoGro Coconut Fiber

Check it out, I think you'll love it as much as I do. Thanks for your consideration.

cheers,
Jimi Gragg

Intersting! I live in oregon and we have a hydroponics store right down the street lol. I may have to go buy a small bag to give it a try.

Jimi,
Thanks for the info.

I have used coir fiber for awhile now and recommend it for many types of snakes - from kings to corns to smaller pythons to small non-desert boas (larger boas & pythons I would use craft paper, the crinkled kind like what is sold online here.)

I haven't had a snake wheeze, sneeze or be otherwise adversly affected by coir.
-----
Mark

Hi Mark,

Yeah, I agree, the versatility of the stuff is great. I mainly use it to maintain higher, or just more stable, humidities for tropical arboreals, but when it's dry it seems like a good substrate for fossorial or just temperate-terrestrial taxa as well.

The product line I mentioned before is aged, washed, and sifted - the dust content is very low. It also has a heterogeneous particle size so it can be "shaped" into high & low spots for a wider range of moisture levels in the enclosure (maintainable by watering from below). My few tropical terrestrials (mainly Atropoides) can select the substrate moisture content to sit on (I also include some guaranteed-dry spots, in the form of flat rocks or inverted clay pots, in all enclosures).

Mainly though, I just wanted to offer fellow herp folks some more info on collateral damage of the cypress mulch market, so they could make more-informed decisions in their purchasing choices. The volume we consume, relative to the landscaping industry, is miniscule no doubt; but on the other hand, most of us have yards, right? I for one now do all my mulching with grass clippings and oak leaves (both abundant in FL!); my neighbors are kind enough to bag and set on the curbside (intended to be picked up by our waste handlers, not specifically me...).

cheers,
The Leaf Bandit, aka Jimi Gragg

Information is a good thing. No sense in using a resource that is not easily renewed.

I forgot to mention that the used coir substrate from cages works fantastic in the garden. Another plus for coir.
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Mark

>>Information is a good thing. No sense in using a resource that is not easily renewed.
>>
>>I forgot to mention that the used coir substrate from cages works fantastic in the garden. Another plus for coir.

Since you fine gentlemen have pointed out all the benifits of coir might you also include a link.

Cheers
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Jeremy

"I am become death, the destroyer of worlds" July 16, 1945 Robert Oppenheimer

0.1 Sunglow "Khal" RTB
0.1 Snow "Khal" RTB
1.0 Double Het "Khal" Sunglow RTB
1.1 Double Het "Sharp" Snow RTB's
1.1 Hypomelenistic RTB's
0.0.13 Hypomelenistic RTB's
0.2 Pastel Hypo RTB's
1.0 Double Het Stripe Albino RTB's
0.1 Suriname RTB
0.0.7 Normal Suriname Hybrid's
0.1 Anerthrystic RTB
3.6.14 Red Bearded Dragons
1.1 Rhinoceros Iguana's
1.0 Green Iguana
1.0 Ball Python
1.1 Cream Golden Retrieviers
1.0 Pomeriaian
0.3 Catus Terribilis
0.1 Spouse
1.0 Child

Sure, Jeremy. Like I said before, almost everyone is by now familiar with the little bricks of coir (coconut fiber) available at their local pet supply store. But that's just one guise coir comes in - that particular material has its limitations (small particle size, very dusty) and the price is not great (up to $5 a brick).

What I'm talking about is a way bigger brick (a 5kg "bale", that's cheaper and has far better "tech specs" - heterogeneous particle size, no dust, washed & aged).

Here are some links:

http://www.pondepot.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=2746

http://www.sea-of-green.com/store/product_info.php?products_id=40

http://www.americanagritech.com/product/product_detail.asp?ID=15&pro_id_pk=21

http://www.plantitearth.com/store/product.asp?pid=515&catid=62

http://www.bestbuyhydroponics.com/catalog/index.php/cPath/33?osCsid=2fd0f60156b08a85b9ad8d39db324a85

http://www.texashydroponics.com/shop/Soilless-Mix-p-1-c-138.html

Note the price range - I've seen it from $10.50 to $30.00; it appears MSRP is about $14 a bale.

These vendors sell other things we use, particularly for naturalistic enclosures - hydroton, timers, lights, etc. Sometimes shipping is free if you spend enough (that can really save you some $ if you have storage space and are buying heavy, bulky substrate). Shop around, as always.

Finally, I hope buying supplies (online, credit card) from these outfits doesn't get us on any kind of drug enforcement database...yeah, I think like that. Doubt I'm the only one. But I have nothing to hide...just growing legal snakes, not weed. Or tomatoes (riiiight, ha ha). I guess if you were weirded-out enough, you could walk in and pay cash...

cheers,
Jimi

Finally, I hope buying supplies (online, credit card) from these outfits doesn't get us on any kind of drug enforcement database...yeah, I think like that. Doubt I'm the only one. But I have nothing to hide...

Digging around in my memory banks, I seem to recall a lizard keeper being raided back in the early 90's. I think it was due to the high number of metal halide lights he was using for his collection. What I don't remember was if the raid was due to an aerial infrared photo or due to tracking purchases of the metal halides. Evidently police take aerial infrared photos to see what buildings are emitting large degrees if infrared energy at night. Much or at least some of the time these are operations growing hydroponic marijuana.

Anyone remember this with more detail?
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Currently keeping a small collection of various Gonyosoma. Both G. janseni and G. oxycephala.

>>Anyone remember this with more detail?

I do but my memory is overwhelmed by the photos of the raid in Tennessee, in which they were actually growing Mary Jane.

I would assume the bust was due to an overfly of an infared camera mounted on a Heli. But they may also track Halides as well, I'm sure they track Nyquil sales.

Cheers
-----
Jeremy

"I am become death, the destroyer of worlds" July 16, 1945 Robert Oppenheimer

0.1 Snow "Khal" RTB
1.1 Double Het "Sharp" Snow RTB's
1.1 Hypomelenistic RTB's
0.0.3 Hypomelenistic RTB's
0.2 Pastel Hypo RTB's
1.0 Double Het Stripe Albino RTB's
0.1 Suriname RTB
0.1 Anerthrystic RTB
3.6.11 Red Bearded Dragon's
1.1 Rhinoceros Iguana's
1.0 Green Iguana
1.0 Ball Python
1.1 Cream Golden Retrieviers
1.0 Pomeriaian
0.3 Catus Terribilis
0.1 Spouse
1.0.1 Child

I do...

I thought you might since I also seem to recall the lizard/metal-halide raid being in Southern California. Might have to do a google search later.
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Currently keeping a small collection of various Gonyosoma. Both G. janseni and G. oxycephala.

>>I do...
>>
>>I thought you might since I also seem to recall the lizard/metal-halide raid being in Southern California. Might have to do a google search later.

I started one but than thought...............I wonder if googling drug bust is tracked as well? LOL so I stoped
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Jeremy

"I am become death, the destroyer of worlds" July 16, 1945 Robert Oppenheimer

0.1 Snow "Khal" RTB
1.1 Double Het "Sharp" Snow RTB's
1.1 Hypomelenistic RTB's
0.0.3 Hypomelenistic RTB's
0.2 Pastel Hypo RTB's
1.0 Double Het Stripe Albino RTB's
0.1 Suriname RTB
0.1 Anerthrystic RTB
3.6.11 Red Bearded Dragon's
1.1 Rhinoceros Iguana's
1.0 Green Iguana
1.0 Ball Python
1.1 Cream Golden Retrieviers
1.0 Pomeriaian
0.3 Catus Terribilis
0.1 Spouse
1.0.1 Child

do you have any pictures of this in your enclosures?