Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hi all, I have a few questions. I have recently hatched out some gopherus and the scutes are all messed like more scutes than normal, criss cross scutes, enlarged scutes. Is this an incubation problem?? or some thing??
Thanks
Max

Frequently this condition results from excessively high incubation temperatures. Did you have the eggs in an incubator? If so, what temperature was used? This could be a guideline for others working with the species to judge what incubation temps they should try.

We were informed that we should incubate at 89 to 90. But I personaly felt this was way to high. Most of our torts hatched out week earlier than should, all had extremely large umbilicus and were all taco'ed. but all went away except for the messed up scute counts.
Thanks
Max

Dr Z,I think that would be the case here,but can you tell me why in some of my clutches I get distorted scute formation in only some eggs.There is know extreem high temps.,and it does'nt vary in the egg box.Most people think its always temp.related but cant explane why only some are irregular.I have found a genetic factor in one of mine, by changing males,the irregular scute formation was not present.The female had a recorded history of about one third with one male none with a different male.This tells me genetic,what say you.Thanks Vic ps Did you ever notice a zig-zag patern on a tortoise makes it worthless but if its a snake "its worth more!"

I know in Aldabras the last vertebral scute horizontally split is a genetic trait.

I don't think anyone who breeds tortoises will say that it is totally temperature dependent(which, btw, is becoming a sales pitch on the assumption that it is temperature dependent and as such is most likely a female) although I do think that the majority of that particular deformaty is for the most part temperature dependent.

Most people I know incubate way too high. 86F is a good base temperature for most if not all testudo.

Vic, as far as your guys go... 'too high' is a relative term. There's a neat book called Incubating Reptiles Eggs. I was surprised to see that the 'ideal' temperature varies quite a bit.
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Ed @ Tortoise Keepers
Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

I agree EJ. With my Redfoots at 84 degrees down to 82 degrees I get very few abnormal scutes on the hatchlings. Up that temp. to 89 degrees and it's a problem. In fact a year ago I tried to produce females and yes they all hatched out but only 2 of 5 had perfect scute patterns. I'm sure genetics plays a factor in some redfoots and others but with my breeding group I take credit for the abnormality when I made the choice to heat those eggs up. Got to scute on---later Richard

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Richard -amazoa-

"Changes in behavior occur when the pain of staying the same outweighs the pain of change."

In my experience extra or spilt scutes have been related to temperatures that were too high. In the late 70s there was nothing really printed on temps to incubate eggs at.
My friend and I started doing our redfoots at 89 degrees and we got a very high number of deformed hatchlings including ones with deformed jaws and no eyes.
Then we dropped down to 86 degrees...no serious deformities but still quite a few with extra or split scutes.
Since then I have incubated redfoots at 82.5 to 84 degrees. In the past 25 years I have only had 3 or 4 hatch with a split or extra scute. Two hatchlings in the past few years from the same female hatched with deformed mandibles and were euthanized.
Otherwise, no deformities at all from numerous females over the years.
But Vic is probably right in that in some cases it is genetic.

Carl,

Have you ever tracked the ratio of males to females. As I mentioned, the cross over temperature for most Testudo is believed to be 86F where you get a 50/50 ratio of males to females.

There are some tortoises they are finding the crossover is lower and some higher. I think there is a reference or two where it flip-flops in some species like the leopard geckos.
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Ed @ Tortoise Keepers
Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

Ed,
I haven't followed too many of my hatchlings over the years.
I kept one from 1980 that was a male.
Two that I gave to the artist Marty Capron in 1979 (and that he still has) are both females.
Two that I have held onto from two and three years back respectively, are a male and I believe, a female.

Are the ones born with deformed scutes mostly female? Has anyone ever tracked this data?

I have a CB hermanns that was temp sexed to be female & has only 4 vertebral scutes instead of 5. At age 3 it became quite obvious that she was a he & Molly became Ollie.
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DeeCee

I have always heard that but have no personal experience. Maybe people just assume that they will be females?
Then again, if I remember correctly, all of the adult tortoises that I have seen with zig-zag scutes were female...

Of all the wild caught animals I've found with this deformity the majority (all but one) were females. about 4 species and 12 animals total.

>>I have always heard that but have no personal experience. Maybe people just assume that they will be females?
>>Then again, if I remember correctly, all of the adult tortoises that I have seen with zig-zag scutes were female...
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Ed @ Tortoise Keepers
Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

certainly extra or irregular scutation is incubation temperature-related, especially on the high end, but it is also an occurrence in both genders in the wild

my last came across as somewhat clipped - while the scute irregularities are naturally occurring in the wild, I have no first-hand knowledge of the ratio of male to female

Im still woundering why all the torts.Dont have split scutes if there is no vareation in temps.in the incubator.If its high temps.that cause it then they all should be deformed.Maybe we are barking up the wrong tree! Maybe its when the incubator takes a big BUMP from someones annoying kid that has to see the eggs up close!or just handling and candling and other curious stuff we do.....hummm I thing i'll turn down the Rolling Stones ...by Vic

When I incubate tortoise eggs I want all/most females. There are so many males of all species already there I make females. To do this I follow a simple formula.

89-91F for the first half of the expected incubation.

Sulcata? 45 days.
Cal. Desert Tort? 45 days!

Then cool to 84-85 until hatching.

No extra scutes (unless the parents have extra scutes) and no other problems.

Yes, I see extra scutes as genetic. Males or females can have them and the offspring (if they have them) tend to have similar abnormalities to their parents.

Perhaps hi temps can make extra scutes too but this would happen at the end of incubation when the shell covering is laid down so keep it cool at the end and avoid the possibility.

This is common practice in other TSD species but tortoise people are so slow to adopt new ideas.

Just see various discussions about pyramiding and see that OLD dogmas are hard to kill despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

Keep it fun!
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