Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hi,a friend just got a milk that was sold as a sinaloae but someone else told him that it was in fact a hundurensis. Unfortunatelly I'm not very good with milks. So, what do yo think??? Thanks you all for your time...

nahual

Certainly not honduran. The snake in the photo looks to be sinaloae or nelsoni (which may actually be the same thing, but that's another subject...). "Classic" sinaloans have very wide red bands while "classic" nelson's have narrower red rings. That snake appears sort of intermediate between the two "classic" examples (as are most seen in the pet trade). Long-story-short: My vote is for sinaloan.

-Cole

That actually looks like a PERFECT example of pure "nelsoni".

The way the much thicker black bands taper out abruptly at the dorsum(top), the higher band count(even for nelsoni) with yours having 19 to the vent, as opposed to (13-18). Sinaloans having between 10-16 red body rings(to the vent).

Also the tail being more solid black(more typical of nelsoni, than in sinaloae)

It very closely resembles an exceptionally nice example of nelsoni I had some years back.

I think people aren't used to seeing very good examples of nelsoni anymore, because of the huge Sinaloan influence introduced years ago to produce as many albinos as possible, since they went for $2,000 dollars back then.

Hope this helped, ~Doug

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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

I agree, looks like a nelsoni to me. And the one is your pic is super nice. Do you know of any "pure" nelsoni lines left?

Best,
Vinny
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“There is a grandeur in this view of life, with its several powers, having been originally breathed into a few forms or into one; and that whilst this planet has gone on cycling according to the fixed laws of gravity, from so simple a beginning endless forms most beautiful and most wonderful have been, and are being, evolved.” -C. Darwin, 1859

Natural Selection Reptiles

Vinny,....

I really haven't messed with them for quite a while now, but I'm sure there are still some breeders that still have nice examples, and have kept them as "real" as possible, although it would be hard for me to "nail-down" a certain individual's blood-line to say......."this is real", and that's not, unless of course, it's very obviously not. It would be impossible for me to PROVE, unless I actually did the breeding from a line acquired years ago myself.

I will say though, that most of what I see at shows is not real impressive, and sort of fall somewhere between the two ssp., but there are definitely some exceptions and will see some nice examples from time to time.

As you know, many people don't know what they're looking at, even if it hit them in the face anyway!!LOL

By the way, thanks for the nice comment on my pic, ...he was a beauty!,....and even had the wide broken band "notch" on the underside of first black band on the throat!

I also took a cruise over to your website a while back, and noticed you have some really nice stuff!.....keep up the good work!

~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

Wow thanks for that really good info!!. My fried got this snake at Argentina where he lives, so the blood lines there are probably diferent from what is available at USA. Thanks again for your help!!!
This is another photo of the same snake:

>>Wow thanks for that really good info!!. My fried got this snake at Argentina where he lives, so the blood lines there are probably diferent from what is available at USA. Thanks again for your help!!!
>>This is another photo of the same snake:
>>

You're welcome!.....

And yes, looking at that pic as well, if that's a Honduran, or a Sinaloan,..........then I'm the president of the United States!!LOL

best regards, ~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

I'd vote for ya, Doug.

-cole

im in for some .... and your going to outlaw all hybrids and im going to have to start an underground hybrid ring...lol
adam
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"CARLOS MENCIA FOR EL PRESIDENTE"
hybrid breeders association
1.1 puebladurans
1.1 sinacorns
1.1 hypo corns
1.1 crimson corns
1.1 striped ghosts
1.1 kenyan sand boas
1.1 mbk
1.1 albino corns
1.1 childrens python
1.3 ghost corns
2.2 butter(both females motley)
1.0 snow corns
1.0 jurassic milk
1.0 house snake
0.1 anery pueblacorn
0.1 bloodred
0.1 eastern milk (eatin pinks)
0.1 striped albino corn
0.1 albino nelsons
0.1 anery motley
0.1 normal corn het hypo,anery
0.1 hypo tang hondo
0.1 rosy boa

Adam!,.....

I think the country would be in real trouble if I was "Pres"!

but maybe not any worse off than it is already!LOL

I'd have to start office by first imprisoning all hybrid owners/breeders!!ha-ha-ha-ha-ha

later!, ~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

so you would put me in prison ......what a pal....see if i go to daytona with you again!!!! thats all right all that means is i wont have to hear you deon and vince all snoring at once!!!!
adam jeffery
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"CARLOS MENCIA FOR EL PRESIDENTE"
hybrid breeders association
1.1 puebladurans
1.1 sinacorns
1.1 hypo corns
1.1 crimson corns
1.1 striped ghosts
1.1 kenyan sand boas
1.1 mbk
1.1 albino corns
1.1 childrens python
1.3 ghost corns
2.2 butter(both females motley)
1.0 snow corns
1.0 jurassic milk
1.0 house snake
0.1 anery pueblacorn
0.1 bloodred
0.1 eastern milk (eatin pinks)
0.1 striped albino corn
0.1 albino nelsons
0.1 anery motley
0.1 normal corn het hypo,anery
0.1 hypo tang hondo
0.1 rosy boa

be spared prison, but be sentenced to cleaning ALL of my pure species/ssp snake cages. Making it even MORE agonizing for you than doin' time!!....ha-ha-ha-ha-ha!!!!, in addition to that, I would force you to keep reciting the "DO-TA-DOO" theme song!!LOL

later!, ~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

I am working with pure nelsoni, but they are amelanistic. They came directly from Doug Moody and his original line of amel nelsoni.

Dave
DNS Reptiles

The snout looks a little "off" to be what I would consider classic nelsoni - yours is a much better example. The animals from Sinaloa and Nayarit (sinaloae) typically have the darker snouts shown by this animal. Those from the Pacific Coast of Jalisco (nelsoni) have whiter snouts, like the animal you posted (which is stunning, by the way!). As a side note, I've heard strong suggestion that hobby nelsoni are narrow-banded individuals of sinaloae or nelsoniXsinaloae intergrades from the coastal Nayarit to Mazatlan area. Any thoughts? I find this really interesting. Bob Applegate is a wealth of info on this subject.

-Cole

It does beg the question, if you were to take away the pattern could you tell the difference between a sinaloan and nelsons? Look at all the pattern variation between alterna types from crazy orange blairs to black and grey alterna.

But, some of the most classic looking sinaloans are from the Mazatlan area, I am thinking of Applegates line that gave produced the splotched morph, so what is going on down there?

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“There is a grandeur in this view of life, with its several powers, having been originally breathed into a few forms or into one; and that whilst this planet has gone on cycling according to the fixed laws of gravity, from so simple a beginning endless forms most beautiful and most wonderful have been, and are being, evolved.” -C. Darwin, 1859

Natural Selection Reptiles

Good point. You actually sort of hit the nail I was trying for. LOL

-Cole

You've got some killer animals. Post more photos!

-Cole

>>The snout looks a little "off" to be what I would consider classic nelsoni - yours is a much better example. The animals from Sinaloa and Nayarit (sinaloae) typically have the darker snouts shown by this animal. Those from the Pacific Coast of Jalisco (nelsoni) have whiter snouts, like the animal you posted (which is stunning, by the way!). As a side note, I've heard strong suggestion that hobby nelsoni are narrow-banded individuals of sinaloae or nelsoniXsinaloae intergrades from the coastal Nayarit to Mazatlan area. Any thoughts? I find this really interesting. Bob Applegate is a wealth of info on this subject.
>>
>>-Cole

Cole,...

I tend to agree with that!, even so, it's very possible that this animal's siblings have a slightly more freckled snout too, as SOME variation is to certainly be expected.

Also, your comment as to most "hobby" nelsoni being mostly intergrades, is "right on", and I couldn't agree with you more!!

As to the exact localities they might have originated from, they could very well have came from those areas you mentioned.

Like you stated, Bob Applegate is certainly a "wealth" of knowledge when it comes to these animals. As a matter of fact, I believe he(Bob) sold some of his stock to the breeder I got my male nelsoni from many years ago! I recall his name being mentioned during the course of purchasing the animal many years ago.

I sure wish I still had those animals, and would have paid more attention as to their original locale, etc...

I appreciate your comment on my animal, and am glad you also thought it was outstanding!

best regards, ~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

I've said it before and I'll say it again: I wish you still had those animals, too! I'd give my left... well, maybe not that - but something nice... for a pair of those classics! LOL Those macro scale photos you've been posting are killer, too. Keep 'em rolling!

-Cole

Don't think I haven't noticed your AWESOME animals!!

You and a few other dudes have some real "SMOKIN' stuff!

~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

here are a couple pure (well as pure as anyting in the hobby today) nelsoni. I am still working with these guys.I produced these two in (98) from a wild caught female that had some striping on her tail bred to a classic looking amel from seven generations. These guys are 100%het amel but have only produced one amel baby in six years of producing? weird huh?

L8r
Shannon

here are some babies a couple years ago from them.

i always liked this one also.

Yes, those are some very nice examples you show!

That is really strange that het pair produced so few amels for ya' too!

nice stuff!

~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

thanks, yeah it is pretty weird. maybe in (08) I will get a bunch of amels.LOL... you just never know.
If I hadn't made them myself I would have thought a few years ago that they weren't really hets.

L8r Shannon

n/p
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

looks classic nelsoni,in my humble opinion.while we're on the subject-though i'm not trying to throw out a monkey wrench-but i was browsing through that kenneth williams book.....and what is pictured as a sinaloan milk on p.83 looks almost more like a nelsoni as i have come to know them;while the specimen representing nelsoni on p.91 sure as hell looks like a pure sinaloan to me.i have always seen this book as having a lot of clout,if not the landmark publication regarding the species as a whole,save for the severe botching of the temporalis situ.and now this-what appears to be a mislabeling of specimen photos-has me questioning it further.....btw,this is not some sort of 'charachter assasination' or casting negative judgemtent on the author,just me voicing my observations.tell me,am i wrong here?if so,no problem,wouldn't be the first time.....in fact if the book's pics mentioned above are labeled properly,then what i and others in the 'hobby' have grown accustomed to seeing as 'classic' examples of either species-sinaloae or nelsoni-would in fact seem to be 'backa$$wards',well described by d. mong in the early response to the initial post of this thread.
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"with head raised regally,and gazing at me with lidless eyes,he seemed to question with flicks of his long forked tongue my right to trespass on his territory" Carl Kauffeld

I really think its a though call. Before Williams there was only nelsoni, then he divided the northern population (sinaloan) from the southern population (nelsoni). While its generally been accepted, its also not been studied since.

Williams' Sinaloan

Willians' Nelsons

I totally know what you mean though, my Cosalas tend to have that V shaped white neck band.

Best,
Vinny

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“There is a grandeur in this view of life, with its several powers, having been originally breathed into a few forms or into one; and that whilst this planet has gone on cycling according to the fixed laws of gravity, from so simple a beginning endless forms most beautiful and most wonderful have been, and are being, evolved.” -C. Darwin, 1859

Natural Selection Reptiles

....the softback '2nd revised' version of this book i havedisplays actual photos as well the those line drawings you show....the snake labeled sinaloan is on p.83 in my copy,and is credited to a D.G. Barker;the nelsoni is on p.91 with the photo credited to joseph and suzzane collins.i was saying these look to be labeled backwards.and btw those babies you posted there are gorgeous and,what i think of as 'classic' sinaloae.
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"with head raised regally,and gazing at me with lidless eyes,he seemed to question with flicks of his long forked tongue my right to trespass on his territory" Carl Kauffeld

Yeah!!.....

There ya go!.....that's a mirror image of the male I once had!

With heavy white snout, down to the wide broken band "notch" on the throat! that is typical of many(but not all) nelsoni. Some individuals have the band tapering down to just a VERY thin line, barely being connected.

those illustrations are pretty straight forward as far as depicting the two differences, but some of those photos in there about many of the milks, are just plain ridiculous!

~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

I could NOT agree with you more about some the corresponding photos in that book!....The text is correct, but the friggin' examples to not only those two, but many were totally out of whack!! and just makes things even more confusing about many milk ssp than they already were!LOL

I have spent countless hours reading most of it in great detail, and found myself even more uncertain about things than when I started. I've talked to alot of people about that, and they think the same.

I had to use some common sense about things I already knew, in conjunction with the book, as well as alot of other literature to make some sense of alot of it too.

Many other books have photos that are "bass-ackwards" from what they should be too, leading to even more head-scratching!

I found that the more I've read about milks, the less(in some cases) I really knew about them,....especially the latin American ssp. .....some of them(especially without data) you might as well just spin a bottle to see which ssp it lands on!!LOL....I'm sure you and many others can relate!

Thanks for your very educated comments too!

~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

thanks doug-yeah these days i try to pool as much info as i can and get a consensus.reminds me of when i see herp-related articles in the local newspaper and they get one if not several facts wrong.makes you then wonder about the accuracy of any subsequent articles,regardless of topic,e.g. 'what else are they getting wrong?'....i guess with such a sliced-and-diced species such as triangulum,accurate loaclity info is critical.
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"with head raised regally,and gazing at me with lidless eyes,he seemed to question with flicks of his long forked tongue my right to trespass on his territory" Carl Kauffeld