Reptile & Amphibian Forums

There was much talk about baby box turtle behavior and how that may relate to the amount of UVB needed by young of the species. I view it as hyperprescriptive to recommend UV lighting, especially to first-time keepers, since there is no direct support for assuming that these bulbs work to the animals' benefit. Consumers remain so ready to accept the gospel of fake UVB, no manufacturer has bothered with an APPLIED experiment on UVB bulb benefit to growth in young turtles.

Some of you seem to feel that the worst scenario is no effect from the bulbs. To the contrary, if we're taking a scientific stance, we need to assume that the bulbs may have a negative effect on growth, a neutral (null) effect on growth, or a positive effect on growth.

There's also no validity in comparing one year's offspring raised without UVB bulbs to another year's offspring raised with it. Valid experiments must use at least moderately proper replication. My own opinion on this is more flexible than many (most?), but comparing groups among years is definitely pushing the envelope.

So where's this going? What if we consider UVB bulb effect on growth in the young of a species that is exposed to high levels of UVB via its natural behavior? This would eliminate the confounding behavior in box turtles being discussed below. What if I said that's been done...

As a new keeper of rescued box turtles, I have now three years of lessons now, and much to learn. Also I am lucky enough to find this post after being directed by a knowledgeable keeper. I have learned a lot from this post and reading. This was the first year I had eggs and babies. So on advice use UVA when ever anybody is inside for any length of time.
One of the big girls had six eggs this year and four were put in one tank and two in the other. The tank with four was just UVA lighting 12 hours the other tank is a 60watt bulb on the same timer. They both get natural food I catch every other day or so in the woods. They both also have access to the food 24 hours a day because it lives with them in the moss.
In the picture attached the four on the left were under the UVA the other two just a light bulb. The room stays at a 70 – 77 degree range although the tank with the light bulb get 80 -82 when on. This of course is a small test group and not a totally controlled environment. For only a two month time frame there is a difference in size. Now everyone is under UVA .
We also believe the ones are much more active under the UVA they come out in the morning and climb all over the moss.

Just a observation we thought others may enjoy.

This is an interesting article.

http://www.uvguide.co.uk/phototherapyphosphor.htm

Thanks for posting the link. The big one on the left of the picture was puffy on the bottom of its eyes. It is also the one that greets me at 6:30 in the morning on top of the moss 8" from the UVA bulb bottom. Maybe a timer of twice a week would be better, its off for now will have to rethink what is best for the little ones.

Thanks again terryo

Thanks for posting the link!

I have been keeping and breeding lizards and turtles (as well as snakes) for several years and have never used UVB lights of any kind. My turtles stay outdoors in pens in the warmer months, but are indoors for at least 5 months.

I have reproduced bearded dragons and skinks doing nothing more UVB-wise than letting the animals have 3 or 4 hours of natural, unfiltered sunlight per week when the weather is nice.

Tim

Third Eye

Thanks for posting the link, very interesting article!
-----
PHRatz

BTW
-----
1.0 pastel ball python
0.1 mojave ball python
0.1 normal ball python
0.2 3-toed box turtles
2.3 eastern box turtles
0.0.5 3-striped mud turtle
1.0 northern diamondback terrapin
2.1 tiger salamander
1.1 red-sided garter
1.0 anerythristic red-sided garter
1.1 Iowa snow plains garter
1.1 Het butter stripe cornsnake
0.1 anerythristic motley cornsnake
1.1 Blue garter (Puget Sound)

The other thing that is not usually addressed against all the marketing hype, is that fact that was made illegal to have any UV output of any kind for residential light bulbs used in our homes... the reason? That kind of close UV exposure to the eyes of humans causes loss of vision. Difficult to measure the long term effect of these high output UVB lights placed 18" from the eyes of the herps, because the herps can't tell you they are experiencing lose of vision, but I imagine we will "see" more data in the future. Something to think about.
-----
1.0 pastel ball python
0.1 mojave ball python
0.1 normal ball python
0.2 3-toed box turtles
2.3 eastern box turtles
0.0.5 3-striped mud turtle
1.0 northern diamondback terrapin
2.1 tiger salamander
1.1 red-sided garter
1.0 anerythristic red-sided garter
1.1 Iowa snow plains garter
1.1 Het butter stripe cornsnake
0.1 anerythristic motley cornsnake
1.1 Blue garter (Puget Sound)

it's hard if not impossible to beat or even replace natural sunlight exposure, put your turtles outside as much as you can in the summer and save your money on bulbs. That's my humble oppinion, but what the hell do I know.
-----
1.0 pastel ball python
0.1 mojave ball python
0.1 normal ball python
0.2 3-toed box turtles
2.3 eastern box turtles
0.0.5 3-striped mud turtle
1.0 northern diamondback terrapin
2.1 tiger salamander
1.1 red-sided garter
1.0 anerythristic red-sided garter
1.1 Iowa snow plains garter
1.1 Het butter stripe cornsnake
0.1 anerythristic motley cornsnake
1.1 Blue garter (Puget Sound)

Perhaps UVB needs aren't always what they seem, at least not for the first 8 months of life post-hatching...

The Fifth Annual Symposium on the Conservation and Biology of Tortoises and Freshwater Turtles, held in Atlanta this past summer, had many presentations of relevance to captive turtle maintenance, one of which was on the first fully replicated, applicative experiment to investigate the effect of UVB bulbs on turtle growth. Bulbs tested included brooder bulbs (no UVB), brooder bulbs plus fluorescent tubes (ZooMed 5.0), and mercury vapor bulbs (T-Rex Active UV Heat 100w).

Each bulb treatment was replicated three times, making nine treatment groups total. Over 200 hatchling slider turtles were used in the study, which extended from hatching to 8 months of age. Results did not correspond with the accusations discussed on Terryo's link (although ZooMed 5.0 bulbs were used, not the 10.0 bulbs, which do not belong in most home applications, anyway), nor did they correspond with much of the emphatic (yet unsubstantiated ) advice given on this forum. You guys should get to more conferences!

Would you be interested in posting their results so we can compare results?
Even though sliders are in the water 90% of the time not basking under the light. I would think it would be hard to do a controlled test. Thanks in advance Scott

"Even though sliders are in the water 90% of the time not basking under the light"

I have had sliders, and Painted's for over 25 years, and on nice sunny days, they spend most of their time basking in the sun.
The reason that I posted that link is because this is the first year that when I took my turts in from the pond for the winter, I purchased a 10.0 UVB bulb that someone recommended and while I was setting up my winter pond in the basement, I had to keep them in a 55 gal tank for 1 week. That's all it took...1 week. The bulb must have been too close, and both my Southern and Eastern Painted got swollen eyes, and they were closed shut. I happened to ask advice on another forum, and they sent me that link. When I put them in the pond, and took away that bulb, they were fine after only 3 days .I also put vitamin A & D ointment on their eyes twice a day. That was the first and last time I used that bulb.
I also have a Cherry Head Redfoot, and the breeder recommends no UVB or UVA lighting. I have a heat emitter on one side, and a long florescent light on the other side.

74.3% sorry I stand corrected my mistake.

What were the results and what were the controls to make sure all other factors were equal? There is a huge difference in heat from a flor. bulb to a Merc. vapor. I guess I'm not sure by your post what your interpretation or the interpretation of the people who did the study was were either?
-----
1.0 pastel ball python
0.1 mojave ball python
0.1 normal ball python
0.2 3-toed box turtles
2.3 eastern box turtles
0.0.5 3-striped mud turtle
1.0 northern diamondback terrapin
2.1 tiger salamander
1.1 red-sided garter
1.0 anerythristic red-sided garter
1.1 Iowa snow plains garter
1.1 Het butter stripe cornsnake
0.1 anerythristic motley cornsnake
1.1 Blue garter (Puget Sound)

I don't understand what your perception of "controls" is. In an experiment, the control is your group(s) that is not exposed to the factor of interest (here, UV bulbs).

The controls in this experiment were the three groups exposed only to incandescent lighting. The same incandescent lighting was provided to the groups exposed to fluorescent bulbs (to achieve the same basking temp). The same basking temp was achieved for all basking sites regardless of bulb type (otherwise, there would be no legitimate comparison to be made).

I did already suggest the results of the study, which are available in abstract in the proceedings of the conference, and are currently in preparation for release in full.