Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hey folks,

Here're a few snakes that I was fortunate enough to have seen in the wild during this season. This year spoiled me Lampropeltis-wise and I just though that I'd share the wealth. Some of you may have seen these pics already...

Additionally, I'm going to make this post two-fold. I'd like to see if any of the NA milk enthusiasts can name the state from which each snake was found, so let'r rip!

Good luck boys.

Nice post! That's an awesome assortment of syspila, gentilis, and intergrade photos. Thanks for posting. That light (hypoerythristic) gentilis looks familiar... I'll make a call tonight to see if any of her neonates look like her. Have you heard?

Now for a wild stab at locality:
1.KS, 2.MO, 3.MO, 4.KS, 5.KS, 6.MO, 7.IL, 8.IL, 9.MO, 10.KS, 11.KS, 12.KS, 13.KS (Damn, I like that snake...), 14.KS, 15.KS, 16.KS, 17.KS, 18.MO

How'd I do?

-Cole

Hey Cole...

You were right on with a few of your answers, but you missed a few too. I can't expect anyone to get these right most of the time since they're all so variable...

I dont know where any of them are from, but they are all awesome! Esp. this one

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“There is a grandeur in this view of life, with its several powers, having been originally breathed into a few forms or into one; and that whilst this planet has gone on cycling according to the fixed laws of gravity, from so simple a beginning endless forms most beautiful and most wonderful have been, and are being, evolved.” -C. Darwin, 1859

Natural Selection Reptiles

I have a pair of Lincoln Co. Ks. Gentilis from Jeff Hardwick that look very similar. I wouldn't dought that is one of his.
-Phil
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I'll Google your YouTube
If you Yahoo! Myspace!

tough calls,here goes nothing-
1-syspila from KS showing what i see as a trace of gentilis influence...
2-could be same,hard to see clearly.....
3-syspila,missouri
4-Nebraska
5-amaura,texas
6-obvious nominate infl,i'll say illinois
7-weird,could be anywhere else close to the fall line-i'll say north/central Jersey
8-apparently somewhere in vulpina range-Illinois
9-hatchling amauraanother from Tx?
10-Ks
11-pretty sweet.could be colorado but i'll say nebraska
12-hell i don't know-'a snake only a milk geek could love'-oklahoma?
13-fugly anery kansan
14-ditto but with red
15-pretty celaenops or celaenops-like gentilis-colorado
16-kansas
17-nuther nice one,stumper--1'll say kansas
18-pendan-tast-ic;KS
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"with head raised regally,and gazing at me with lidless eyes,he seemed to question with flicks of his long forked tongue my right to trespass on his territory" Carl Kauffeld

Justinian 2120, you really are a geek if you don't like # 13.

Milkball

-Dell

I recognize those snakes! How's that sweet female in the first pic doing? She looks good in the photo! She was awesome right out of the egg.

-Cole

Justinian...

You did a nice job as well. You missed a few...but that's okay, I doubt if anyone could really get em all. I'll post the answers once everyone's had a chance to play...

Also...number 6 was actually an adult at 19" long...

Very cool post Chad. I really like all the variation in the syspila you saw this year.
I think there are two intergrades in your list. Right?
Let's see, here goes.

1. KS
2. KS
3. MO
4. IL
5. TX
6. IL
7. IL
8. MO
9. KS
10. KS
11. KS
12. MO
13. KS
14. AK
15. NE
16. MO
17. AK
18. MO

-Dell

Man, that last snake is a killer animal Dell. Seems like you've gotten the hang of finding those elusive snakes out that way. I feed on milk snake in situ shots like popeye feeds on spinach, so keep em coming. I'll post the answers soon enough...

As they could be anything this is just a WAG:

First two, I’ll say NJ temps simply based on the type of AC. Second guess would be show me state syspila.

#3 KS syspila

#4 CO pale

#5 TX Mex

#6 western AL syspila eastern integrade

Non of the others are eliciting opinions strong enough to elicit a guest.

Those were all good guesses...But there weren't any "heavy" intergrades in the post...

heavy integrades?

I havent seen that kind of variation from "typical locale" in a long time. My guesses
1 KS
2 KS
3 MO
4 AL
5 TX
6 IL
7 IL
8 MO
9 AK
10 AK
11 NE
12 KS
13 KS
14 Miss
15 CO
16 KS
17 MO
18 KS
I still want some of those real nice Alabama easterns if you can point me towards em..much obliged. Still a geek,lol,Jeff

Jeff, you can probably get some of those alabama eastern reds or whatever they are from Walter Broda.He has a small ad in the back of the Reptiles Mag.

L8r

I had heard about his locality hypo stripes a couple years ago, could that be one? Any others or is that a product of nj x md? I dont have any reptiles mags, can you or anyone help? Jeff

Looks like a temporalis to me...

Question is --is it locale or a mutt,nice snake either way.

i have some snakes from the same striped origin-originally carl bartlett's,i think-that show the same aberrancy as that specimen pictured;but the hypomelanism comes from a totally different locale.
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"with head raised regally,and gazing at me with lidless eyes,he seemed to question with flicks of his long forked tongue my right to trespass on his territory" Carl Kauffeld

...not like the pinstripe blacks that some folks sell off as hypos. Ever see a syspila with hypo like that?

The thing about hypo traits is that they all work in different ways. From my observations what we call hypo can be expressed in two separate ways.

The pattern elements that are normally black can be reduced in amount or intensity. The syspila morph manifests as reduced amounts of black resulting in a tricolor with an exceedingly clean ground color and unusually thin black triad borders. Hypo in coastasls, in contrast, manifests as a reduced intensity in any and all black that is present and this level of reduction can be quite variable. I've produced animals with triad boarders that range from dark brown to light lavender. Pictured are some lighter ones

That was a very good explanation! Personally I had never seen what I would consider a true hypo in syspila before this year, but rest assured that there are truly hypo syspila in existence. Let me explain...

This is a snake that you used as an example. I would absolutely consider THIS to be a real hypo...

This is what I've typically seen advertised as hypo...I found these images simply by using google...

Now, by definition these snakes ARE hypo because they have a less ration of black to red or white compared to most syspila...BUT, I would never purchase these animals as hypos. Maybe that reduced pinstripe black is a heterozygous trait, but that doesn't mean it fits into the standard of what a hypo is in other snakes. I understand your point about how it manifests itself in different ways, but this is not practical at all in terms of marketability. Without a consistant definition, people can call anything hypo.

Now, I'm a syspila junkie and I've never seen a syspila with the real hypo look to it similar to the temporalis at the top...that is, until this year. I'm not going to say who produced them, but there is a group of near albino red milks that are actually hypo. When I first saw them, I thought that they were the first captive produced amel syspila...

The HYPO gene was very "misunderstood" back in the early 90s. ALOT of people would say this and that was HYPO. This coastal plains milk line was actually considered ALBINO, as that old milksnake poster will attest. Now, as HYPO was understood, lavender albino was still not well known. As a community we accepted these names for these phenotypes based primarily on the breeders who produced them. Often their names were so associated with the lines that other jealousys started. I digress...
The RED milk might not be a "true" hypo in the genetic way we now accept as HYPO. And the coastal is MORE LIKELY a lavender albino not a "true" hypo as well. They are both very interesting looking recessive traits. If you HAVE something that you feel more accurately depicts what most of us would call a "true" hypo, a "true" lavender albino, or whatever.....post some pics so we can discuss this on a level field. Otherwise you will continue to be as misunderstood and Tony and I thought,lol. BYW, there have been albino and striped reds around before, they just werent kept to reproduce,Jeff

....wondering if the hypo temporalis could be considered a form what is typically called "t positive" amelanism....picture below is of a locality pure animal.

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"with head raised regally,and gazing at me with lidless eyes,he seemed to question with flicks of his long forked tongue my right to trespass on his territory" Carl Kauffeld

Watch out for Tony on this one,lol,he's gonna blow! But seriously, back in the 90s ONE test to determine different albinos was done and that was the result. This T ,T- arguement has always ensued, but all you need to know is that there are different types of albinism. I call em red eye and lavender eye(personally I consider hypo brooks GOLD EYE albinos),and there is the possibility of more than one of "each". I think its neat that captive breeding has exposed many of these genes and that they are falling along common lines with pretty much all colubrids. I have had this same arguement for YEARS about the EXTREME hondos with Shannon....but that post keeps getting deleted. Anyways, call em what they look like unless you PAY to have the test done.LOL. Tony is a real stickler on that. Jeff

Not really Jeff they could easily be T albinos but to say its T you suggests knowing what the mechanism that produces the trait is. Without an enzyme test you just can't "know" that. If someone proved it with a test I'd re-label mine in a heartbeat!

np

I'm aware of the two albino syspila. I see what you're saying about the temp being an amel and not a hypo.

The ones I know of were all lost in a fire per Brian Mason.J

No sir, but I think that you're refering to the fire of Brian Richardson's that killed off a female amel syspila from SE MO and a few hets...?

Yep, Brians fire claimed his w/c amel red and a patternless scarlet.He was good friends with Brian Mason and thats what Jeff is talking about.
Sadly Brian Richardson passed away last year as well.

Shannon

Yep, I heard about Brian Richardson's heart attack, that's a shame. I didn't know him at all accept through other milk snake people.

Too damn bad about those burnt snakes...I'm sure he was devastated...

"Without a consistent definition, people can call anything hypo."

Yep, I agree. Before the advent of the internet and digital cameras I think it might have been a problem but now I don't see it as much of an issue. People rarely buy sight unseen anymore so they know what they are getting. Regardless of the name the morph is given, I personally I like the old line syspila “hypo” precisely because it is different.

As for the new hypo syspila, cool news but why the secrecy?

Not really trying to be secretive, it's just not my place to make any news about it.

Thanks for the conversation.

I agree w/ you on the top photo of the temporalis that it is a hypo. and will be a hypo. when it matures, because of the light graying of the black banding and the lack of black tipping on the white background.
And this could be considered a classic looking hypo. for all snakes.
Now the other Milk photos may be hypos. but we need to see them as adults. I have Multistrata that had white background like that that didn't hold that white as it got older.
From those photos I'd say the middle one is not going to be a hypo. (still a nice looking snake that would be worth plugging it to a project) and the last photo is a hypo. or going to be a hypo.
As for Syspila hypos., I think there is a long way to go before we start to see hypos that match up w/ say Honduran hypos.

This is an 05 Syspila hypo contrasted w/ an 05 normal Syspila.

This is the full shot of the hypo from above. I also have a female for him that is hypo. but she is not as bright as he is, and I don't have a photo of her in photobucket yet to show the diffrence of her "hyponess" to his. But for now I'm calling them both hypos.
Now I don't think this Syspila is as hypo. as that Temporalis in you photo. But this Syspila is hypo. non the less.

This is another normal Syspila (not from the first photo) that has some interesting orange flecking in her background color.
Have you seen much of this color in some of the Syspila your finding in the field Chad?

Let me end by saying that I'm no hypo. authority and this is only my opinion of what I see in the photos and on other snakes. I'm only trying to understand esoteric "hyponess".

-Dell

...are those considered hypos? I think that some syspila just have a less percentage of black pigment, but the pigment itself has no reduced melanin. But, when a syspila pops up that DOES resemble the same type of hypo that the hondurans exhibit...we'll know for sure.

O.k. Applegates pyros, if I remember right, have bright saddles w/ limited black bands that could be called pin banding, right? The back ground white is high white w/ no ticking. And the pin banding holds it's black and are not grayed or dulled down. I think this is what you mean, right.
Yes, I'd call those hypos. I don't have to see the black banding dulled down to a gray or lavender to call it a hypo.

What I like to see in a hypo would be lack of black ticking on the background color and in the saddles.
You may say your wrong Dell, and you could be right. I'm still trying to define hypo for myself.
And let me say too, that I like a good looking normal as much or more over a hypo anytime. But the hypo is fun to play around w/.

This is what I'd call a classic normal Syspila. The normal in the above photo w/ the hypo, is not near as nice looking as this female. IMO

-Dell

I don't claim to know either, hell I'm just playing devil's advocate. I know that the definition of hypo = less melanin...but I just don't like that definition. By that vague definition, that last normal syspila that you posted could be considered hypo b/c it has less black than a lot of syspila that I've seen. Personally, if something is to be catagorized as color morph in the first place, it had better be vastly different than a typical specimen....I just don't believe that those snakes are different enough. You mention that a hypo should have less newsprint on the white triads, well...many syspila begin to lose this after the first fileal generation...

I just want to see some sort of definition in this individual case because this is just too damn confusing, lol...

Stay cool Dell. You and Cole come see me in KS next season...

Fileal? Man Chad I had to look that one up.

You know the fileal affect would explain alot about the syspila hypos I have now, at least for the female anyway.
I think talking out what a hypo is is a step in the right direction as to what would be called a classic hypo. Shannon said it "you have to start somewhere". And syspila are on the first few steps right now.

Cole and I have already been scheming a spring trip in 2008 to Kansas. We'll bring the beer.

Talk to you later,

-Dell

Fileal = the F in F1 or F2 and so on...What I'm saying is that in some instances the first or secnd generation of syspila (depending on a few variables including locality) will have a reduced black when compared to their w/c family...

Yall come on out...We have some mighty fine brews here in the Sunflower State as well, ever heard of BLVD Brewing Co...?

I may just have to come out and play with Dell and Cole as well.I like beer too. You should see my Tap handle collection.

Shannon

That critter is smokin', Shannon! Cherry co., NE? We'd love to do some herping and boozin' with you, too! How do you feel about cigars?

-Cole

love cigars, make mine a sancho panza or punch.

L8r

That's doable. I like both of those, myself. CAO makes a killer group of cigars, too. I'm also a big fan of Fuente, Perdomo, and 5 Vegas. LOL Milkheads have lots in common, huh?! LOL

-Cole

I'm a simple dude with simple tastes, I'll take a Swisher Sweet strawberry Cigarillo...

LOL That can be arranged, too! Swishers are easy to come by. For a good, cheap cigar, try Backwoods (in a pouch). They're magical and even the ladies like 'em. Hell, my girlfriend will even smoke them. LOL

Have you talked to Matt lately? I've been meaning to call him, but never seem to get around to it.

-Cole

Yep, I've been emailing with him all day. He was just out this way for the meeting...

I've smoked plenty of backwoods, I also like prime times...They are always a good choice for little cigars. I prefer something with a little more kick to it, which is why i love fresh cigarillos...and if it's a holiday, I'll treat myself to a big Dutch.

Strawberry? Chad, do you have to pull up your skirt when you smoke those swishers?

Only joking Chad, I've smoked many swishers.

-Dell

Well, mine are always of the choicest flavors...

I also like to roll my own cigars from time to time...

Chad... Rolling your own cigars, huh?! LOL I knew there was something behind you liking the paper-wrapped, refillale types! Boy, that takes me on a nostalgia field trip...

-Cole

Settle down there kid.

Could it be that I just like my own organic tobacco, but I also love their nicely flavored wraps? Could be...

I'll give you that! We'll leave it at "Don't ask, don't tell" - what do you say?! LOL

Alright, I better actually get some work done. I've got a ton of lab reports to wade through.

-Cole

Do you roll those on the inside of a virgins thigh?

huh..what? Did I just say that out loud? Sorry, dozed off.

Now Kingsnake is going to BAN me, I just know it. Why does this always happen to me?

Yeah, I like to kick it up a notch from time to time with a cohiba or onyx also.

Dell and I would love to come visit the South (KS, LOL). We need to work out a timeframe and check it with yours.

-Cole

I think that Bob "could" have called them hypo and it wouldn't exactly be wrong. Personnally I don't think Applegate phase is descriptive accurate. I was expecting something grey and .......never mind! LOL

LOL, yes grey and ? thats funny.

I don't consider the applegate phase pyros as hypo but by definition they really are.Its like splitting hairs after a while.We have come to a place were we expect a look when we see the lable hypo but we all know that hypo is less melanin.Well, some of the accepted hypos (campbelli,pyro,hondurensis etc..)don't even have reduced amounts its just turned a different shade.

L8r

The HYPO red milk is different from most any other hypo gene in colubrids. The HYPO coastals plains milk gene is very likely a lavender albino, but its been called hypo so long we continue to use it. The striped gene has NJ roots, the hypo has md roots. Both have been outcrossed, and I am wondering aloud if this is a locale milk(see Joe Hughes post in milksnake subforum in 05)or if this is a f2 from another breeder like Bob D. Jeff

Jeff, see my response to Tony above.

I may be entirely wrong to claim that the pinstripe hypos are not actually hypos, but I don't think so now that I've seen a syspila of the same exact color pattern and silver (instead of black) banding as the temps that have been posted here. THAT'S a hypo snake IMO...

The odds of a NEW line of HYPO line in red milks perfectly resembling that line in coastals means that there is a very good chance that someone bred the coastal gene into the reds at some point. The odds just are not good, kinda like all those genes being found in hondurans but not in any of the other central amercian ssp.....I HATE to be critical of anything brand new, but I also know I couldnt sell a single one of my multi-morph yellow rats with grandparents locale data. That gene has been around a very long time, it would not surprise me to see it,Jeff

Well, anything's possible...however if that were the case than this individual would be a huge liar and I just don't see that being the case. Besides, the parents were wild caught, and I don't think it's that unlikely that a hypo of this nature could be produced given enough breeding of w/c snakes...

What I meant was that if another morph were produced by NA milks, there is a much greater chance of it being something else rather than finding the same gene in a different locale. Both adults were wc? Same locale? In 2 different locales this year were found both an albino and a anerythristic, neither come close to resembling that hypo gene in the coastal. Out with it!! If you dont want to give a history at least keep us quiet with a pic!! J

lol...well, now that you're talking about those snakes being amel, maybe it's amel...No, not really...I'm not really going to say anything about it and I don't have any pics. If you need answers then you can email me at chad at crotalus dot com, but expect vagueness.

i think we all agree hypomelanistic as meaning a reduction in black pigment,not re:the amount black in the pattern....i.e. the black's not supposed to be black....
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"with head raised regally,and gazing at me with lidless eyes,he seemed to question with flicks of his long forked tongue my right to trespass on his territory" Carl Kauffeld

That's been my entire point...

Mutts? You kill me Jeff! Mixed locals are generic. Mutt is derogatory. It's funny how easily people loose objectivity. You love local NA milks so much that anything that isn't is a mutt yet that obvious cross amery "thayeri" was a potential new morph!

NON LOCALE if that suits you better. Obviously I am NOT a locale guy anymore, thayeri for example. It still is INTERESTING to see any that are "pure locale" agree?

Wild populations excite me if left there. F2, 3 plus locality snakes make no sence to me unless there is a particular phenotype you're associating with the locality. IE locality "pure" xmas mountain greybands are more likely to produce neonates with xmas mountain phenotypes than a pair of generics that look like xmas mountain animals. Here a perdgree establishes a level of purebloodedness. Otherwise the only think you establish is who you think is a good guy. That ends as soon as something unusual pops out!

Tony, you use the locale as a "phenotype" and work it into different lines looking to enhance it in your eyes. I know you want to do this....but you have to aknowledge and appreciate locales even beyond f1 even if you use them differently. If everyone bred using your rules there might not be any "locale/phenotypes" and breeding outcomes would be both more variable and less predictable. Some of us breed for variation and to see new stuff, some breed to reproduce so HOT stuff they aleady have. There is no wrong way.Cheers,Jeff

I'm not advocating that what I do is for everyone just voicing my take on long-term local animals. Not cutting them down either. Remember the vast majority of my collection is either local stock or can be traced to founder stock but I do not entertain delusions that I'm preserving genetic diversity. I simply use locality stock as a starting point to establish lineage to help guide pairing choices and avoid inbreeding depression. Collectors generally seek out some way to differentiate their collections form those of others. My gig is limited line breeding.

Yes I am migrating the hypo gene into other locals with an eye to somewhat preserve patterns that we've come to associate with specific locals but that does not mean those associations are valid. As you yourself often point out, southern MD yielded specimens that covered the whole range coastal phenotypes. I can't speak to New Jersey stock but animals from Tyrell and adjacent counties in North Carolina and even Virginia express the same level of variability. Until quite recently all the Tyrell coastals in captive bred populations were derived from a single wild collected pair! That we associate wider and redder bands and low triad counts with southern populations is a simple function of this genetic bottleneck and generation of supporting artificial selection.

Tony, as a breeder who does it both ways I fear for the difficult,locale animals future if a breeder like you became overly successful.What I mean is that individual locale breeders will obvisously represent a closer version of a true ssp.. When a real nice snake pops up somewhere without locale data, you can incorperate it, others cant. Many newbies or breeders scared off by tiny,difficult babies who want to work with say coastals, may take the easy way out and get your "generic" coastals. Now I know at some point the homogenization you will produce what may look like coastals, but they will lose the extremes in variation that individual locales wont. I know you like locale snakes,but I think a guy like you NEEDS locale breeders at some point right? When we see a post like this "name the state" its a lot more fun to everyone if you know that some of these arent crosses. Otherwise, why not just get on the central american milk bandwagon people are jumping off as fast as it started,lol.J

Tony, as a breeder who does it both ways I fear for the difficult,locale animals future if a breeder like you became overly successful.What I mean is that individual locale breeders will obvisously represent a closer version of a true ssp.. When a real nice snake pops up somewhere without locale data, you can incorperate it, others cant.

THAT IS A MATTER OF CHOICE I CAN NOT HELP

Many newbies or breeders scared off by tiny,difficult babies who want to work with say coastals, may take the easy way out and get your "generic" coastals.

THAT IS COMPLETE SPIN. I DON’T LINE BREED FOR BIG MOUSE EATING ANIMALS, I START MY COASTALS OFF THE OLD FASHION WAY, WITH LOTS OF TLC AND I’M CAREFUL NOT TO OVER PRODUCE. IT WAS BREEDERS WHO OVER PRODUCED AND SOLD COASTALS AT PRESTIGE PRICES WITHOUT GETTING THEM PROPERLY STARTED THAT HAVE SCARED PEOPLE OFF OF COASTALS.

Now I know at some point the homogenization you will produce what may look like coastals, but they will lose the extremes in variation that individual locales wont.

ARE YOU SAYING THAT LOCAL PURE LINES OF TYRREL NC COASTALS AND STRIPED NJ COASTALS ARE REPRESENTATIVE OF WILD POPULATIONS? GIVE ME A BREAK JEFF. DESPITE LOCALITY BREEDERS VARIETY WAS LOST LONG BEFORE I GOT INTO THE GAME.

I know you like locale snakes,but I think a guy like you NEEDS locale breeders at some point right?

ADSOLUTELY CORRECT! LOCALITY IS THE ONLY WAY I KNOW TO ESTABLISH SEPARATE LINEAGES IN A CAPTIVE POPULATION. I JUST HAVE NO DELUSION THOSE STOCKS WILL CONTINUE TO REPRESENT THE FOUNDING POPULATION IF NOBODY CROSSES THEM TO OTHER LOCALITIES.

When we see a post like this "name the state" its a lot more fun to everyone if you know that some of these arent crosses.

WHY IS THAT? THROWING IN A DETRACTOR MIGHT BE FUN.

Otherwise, why not just get on the central american milk bandwagon people are jumping off as fast as it started,lol.J

??

Tony, you can do whatever you want, and I think you know I see both sides. NOT trying to rile you buddy, but I think you will agree that paying higher prices for coastals is something I was always willing to do because they are just so DAMNED hard to find in some locales.Now I admit to overbreeding them about 12 years ago, but that,like most things,is water under the bridge. As far as the NC coastals, the babies produced now are strikingly similar to the wc originals,agreed? I understand line breeding for pattern(stripe) AND out of necessity(NC).Individual variation in wc stocks is still great! I was lucky to get 50% of that test! I think its from wc that "new" HOT lines will interest new and future breeders as much as your efforts. And like it or not f1 and later offspring CAN AND DO represent locales IN THE CONTEXT OF OUR HOBBY. As far as science, I say not, but in the context of our hobby certainly.If Dell or anyone had one of these quizzes and posted a f2 coastalxredxelapasoides intergrade within a locale quiz it would taint the whole quiz, its an orange to our apples.And my point of central am ssp(Hondos,puebs,nels,sina,and other mass produced generic tricolors)was that morphs are fun, but at some point they lose interest more easily because there isnt usually a story to go along with the individual animals like there has been with NA milks. Agree? Hey, its all good, hope work isnt making you crazy! Take it easy! Jeff

Hey! Whow, slow down Jeff. I wouldn't do that. Don't use me as a bad guy. I like temporalis, really.

Hey there, nice fish! Those were some fantastic milks you have there. I always love the variation(read BEING WRONG,lol)but wonder why more of those clean reds arent in the hobby. Are they just too common where they are found? Seems like you spend alot of time in KS, would have thought some of those were from ARK....I think you understand my post tongue in cheek, Jeff

Jeff, I got your tongue in cheek reference.

Next time you use someone as an example in doing something screwball use Shannon or Hardwick or even Hubbs, they can take it, they have been around for a while, I'm kinda new around here and haven't gotten a tough enough skin yet. I'm sensitive. HA

Do you have one of these in your fish tank?

-Dell

I want one! Is that the hypo zebra morph, lol? Where can I catch me one of those?
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Joe

First you have to go through some of these.

Then you may get a shot at landing a Suribem.

And to keep us on topic, although not a milk, here is a Parrot snake you may find on your quest for a Suribem.

-Dell

Jeff, the snake belongs to a friend of mine.He has a few others and they are all pure and niot crossed with mayrlands or any thing else.
Wally's # is (831)372-5426

Shannon

OK I'm confussed. I heard that there was a striped animal popped out of the MD hypo line but this is a hypo partial stripe not from an MD line. Perhaps I'm incorrect by assuming this hypo stripe is the same I've "heard of" or that its even a coastal but so far we only know what it isn't. What local is it? Is this a new line of hypo?

Tony,
All I know is that the animal in question belongs to a friend of mine (john urkavich) out here in Calif.
He told me that it has nothing to do with the calvert line? I will have to call him and ask him again about the background but he did tell me he didn't cross any locales?

Shannon

Thanks Shannon. Look forward to the report.

>>I havent seen that kind of variation from "typical locale" in a long time. My guesses

>>9 AK
>>10 AK

Yes you are indeed rusty. Check your field guide, there are no milk snakes in Alaska. Ken.

np

Fantastic array Chad! Awesome looking animals.
Here's an amaura that Robert and I found earlier this year.
Nathan Wells

Nathan,

remeber, I do need a female for this male.

Gerrit

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http://www.lampropelten.de.vu

Wow! Is that pic in situ? Great shot either way but such a nice pic of a wild tricolor rocket is rare. Great looking animal too. Love the intense black.

Sorry for not numbering the snakes, I meant to go back and do that...Here're the answers...

1- adult female Douglas County, KS syspila...
2- adult male Douglas County, KS syspila, in situ...
3- large adult female northcentral MO syspila...
4- large adult female Wyandotte County, KS syspila...
5- adult amaura from TX...
6- 18 inch adult male from Iowa...
7- subadult from Iowa...
8- same...
9- juvenile Benton County, MO syspila...
10- large adult male Pettis County, MO...
11- adult Ellis County, KS gentilis...
12- adult Clay County, MO syspila...
13- hypo-erythristic gentilis from central KS...
14- adult Bates County, MO syspila...
15- juvenile Ellis County gentilis...
16- Miami County, KS syspila...
17- Camden County, MO...
18- Kansas

I wish someone else would post one that I could try.

Thanks for looking fellas, I hope we all make it through the winter...

The only one I didnt like was the one that my bad eyes couldnt see the pattern of because it was a habitat shot. Some GREAT milks there! J