Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I was on a long drive today and found myself thinking.

Argue all you want but there is only but there is only 1 Florida king no matter what phase! There is no such thing as Brooksi or Goini at least not anymore. If you feel different then take a stand, argue with the people it matters and have the subspecies names changed!

Until then go ahead and breed your goini/floridana to a floridana/brooksi or brooksi/floridana to a floridana, any combo of floridana, they’ll all be true right? Would you all be more comfortable if I called them goini and brooksi “phase”?

The market needs lavender, white sided, peanut butter, jelly and snow goini morphs, right? Nothing is wrong with it, right? If you (big and small breeders) were at a show and saw a white sided goini “phase” you’d BUY it, wouldn’t you? It’d be pretty cool and definite have to have in your collection?

Bottom line; don’t breed things you wouldn’t BUY yourself or WANT and be proud you had in your collection.

Let’s compare floridana with californiae for a second. They are found in the wild in 3 morphs and a wild caught has the possibility to give birth to all 3 morphs, yet they are still the same snake in the pet trade. Nobody tried to rename them nor did the 3 different phases start with separate subspecies’s latin names.

Now for myself, I wouldn’t breed a goini “phase/morph” to any phase of floridana or brooksi/floridana because I wouldn’t BUY one, even though I feel some floridana x floridana/brooksi morph/phase have slipped in. I own brooksi, goini, floridana phases/morphs. It would be super easy for me to experiment with them, but why?

If anyone wants to argue with me calling them floridana, DON’T! I didn’t change there subspecies status. Argue all you want on this forum if they are “true” brooksi or goini but arguing here isn’t going to get their subspecies names changed to what they should be.

-----
B

Not Arguing with you here at all, just trying to understand the point you are trying to make.

I. Are you unsatisfied with the use of "Brooksi" as a market term?

II. Are you Annoyed with crossing Goini into Brooksi?

III. Both?

even though I feel some floridana x floridana/brooksi morph/phase have slipped in

???? Floridana X Floridana/Brooksi??? not even sure what that means.

do u try to keep your Floridana "pure" and your Brooksi "pure" ???

you're sort of contradicting yourself slightly in the post (quotes below), so that's why i'm not very clear as to your intent.

"Argue all you want but there is only but there is only 1 Florida king no matter what phase! There is no such thing as Brooksi or Goini at least not anymore."

"I own brooksi, goini, floridana phases/morphs

Not trying to be funny but u do realize that Goini don't fall into the same category as Floridana?

Are we to call all goini kings "Blotched kings" though some are spotted, striped, aberrant, patternless???

Calling all Florida kings, Floridana: there is not real problem with that BUT the term "Brooksi" is sort-a set in stone... it's a marketing term... it won't go away even if we try, the argument that it shouldn't be used seems pointless...

Crossing and Hybridizing... Personally i have no problem with either... i won't argue for or against them, what i would say is people buy animals to do as they please, you may not like it and i don't think you should concern yourself with it if you aren't pleased with it... we are all individuals and we can choose to venture away from "the pact" and experiment with things that interest us.

Crosses... Hybrids... Morphs... they aren't going anywhere, all "you" can do is not buy them.

just my 2cents

~ZF
-----

Comprehend better than MOST... but i'm NOT claiming to be an expert...

Not Arguing with you here at all, just trying to understand the point you are trying to make.

>>>> I understand ļ

I. Are you unsatisfied with the use of "Brooksi" as a market term?

II. Are you Annoyed with crossing Goini into Brooksi?

III. Both?

even though I feel some floridana x floridana/brooksi morph/phase have slipped in

>>>> I have picked up good deals here and there and later regretted it.

???? Floridana X Floridana/Brooksi??? not even sure what that means.

>>> True floridana x brooksi (market name)

do u try to keep your Floridana "pure" and your Brooksi "pure" ???

>>>> I want to but most of my brooksi are morphs¡K nobody I have bought a MORPH off of can give me a canal, channel number or road. All they can truly verify is they are Dade Co FL. Kings (possibly secrets so nobody hunts there area).

you're sort of contradicting yourself slightly in the post (quotes below), so that's why i'm not very clear as to your intent.

"Argue all you want but there is only but there is only 1 Florida king no matter what phase! There is no such thing as Brooksi or Goini at least not anymore."

>>>> Technically brooksi and goini are floridana.

"I own brooksi, goini, floridana phases/morphs

>>>> I did call them morphs or phases. At this very moment I do not know what ¡§I¡¨ should call them.

Not trying to be funny but u do realize that Goini don't fall into the same category as Floridana?

>>>> Not in the same category but still the same subspecies.

Are we to call all goini kings "Blotched kings" though some are spotted, striped, aberrant, patternless???

>>>> ¡§goini¡¨ are very varied. I bet some people would argue my ¡§goini¡¨ that were caught straight out of the park would resemble the wide banded orange phase g. getula.

Calling all Florida kings, Floridana: there is not real problem with that BUT the term "Brooksi" is sort-a set in stone... it's a marketing term... it won't go away even if we try, the argument that it shouldn't be used seems pointless...

>>>> I do not want the names goini and brooksi to go away. I want people to group together and have them properly named as they should be.

Crossing and Hybridizing... Personally i have no problem with either... i won't argue for or against them, what i would say is people buy animals to do as they please, you may not like it and i don't think you should concern yourself with it if you aren't pleased with it... we are all individuals and we can choose to venture away from "the pact" and experiment with things that interest us.

Crosses... Hybrids... Morphs... they aren't going anywhere, all "you" can do is not buy them.

>>>> No doubt crosses and hybrids are here to stay. Some make very pretty snakes and maybe one day I will change my mind and deal in only pretty snakes.

I truly appreciate your input.

-----
B

someone here once said "All Brooksi are Floridana, but all Floridana are not Brooksi"

Keep that in mind...

GOINI... though found in Florida are not Floridana... they aren't the same Ssp.

maybe you should post pix of the snakes you own... lots of people her will be able to identify what exactly they are...

Do you think all king snakes found in Florida should be called Floridana??

~ZF
-----

Comprehend better than MOST... but i'm NOT claiming to be an expert...

Is that a trick question?

Are we talking native or introduced populations Lampropeltis? Are you refering to the getulus, calligaster, triangulum? Any snake caught in FL could be considered a FL snake but not every snake caught in FL is native therefore not a FL snake!

Example- a NC calligaster escapes from my collection (has never happened but could). It may (just a little) resemble a FL panhandle calligaster but it isn't. The pet shop that might buy it from the person who found it and will represent it as a FL mole king, the person visiting from another state buys it thinking they bought a FL panhandle mole king and so on and so on and so on!
-----
B

"All Brooksi are Floridana, but not all Floridana are Brooksi"

I’d phrase it like, “I hunted along the Brooks Canal, looking for Brooks”.

Heh... so have I. Never found a damn one though. Maybe this coming season...

Not to hijack this thread, but this might inspire you to get out there...

Watch your step out here!

They don’t always rattle, either!

I’ve posted this one before, typical scenery in the background for my old stomping grounds.

A lot of animals are not afraid of people when you get way back in dem woods

Don’t often see alligators so relaxed, note the legs.

Ready to go?
Enjoy...

Knot hear to arque with anywon...
Awl Eye wanna no is:
How did ewe get the font to do: " ļ "
????

jhon

-----
I am so not lesdysxic!

0.1 Creamsicle Cornsake
1.0 Bairds Ratsnake
0.1 Desert Kingsnake
1.1 Eastern Kingsnakes

I wrote out my post on word, then copied and pasted it. I guess some things from word make odd symbols when copied here.

Sorry!
-----
B

No problemo!
-----
I am so not lesdysxic!

0.1 Creamsicle Cornsake
1.0 Bairds Ratsnake
0.1 Desert Kingsnake
1.1 Eastern Kingsnakes

They are not considered to be floridana. They were once considered to be an L.g.getula X L.g.floridana intergrade, but this is no longer the case. They have been reassigned to L.g.meansi. So crossing any floridana with any "goini" is creating a man-made cross... these subspecies do not contact each other in the wild.

I am going to agree with Foxturtle and Zenny here. Everyone knows brooksi is no longer valid but for some people the brooks name can be used for s. florida king locales like dade county. Otherwise i agree the name is overused and incorrect. However I do like the name brooks king for hobbiest who breed the true locale specimens from s. florida.

As far as meansi. Maybe they named it after you?
-----
" there is really no such thing as an expert keeper/breeder, but there are those who let the snakes be expert at being snakes."

Frank Retes

In all my reading how did I miss goini now being called meansi? When did this happen?

I do admit I and grew up in FL and very old school. I am very partial to the subspeciese names!
-----
B

Dr. Kenneth Krysco had a grant fro some DNA test done on eastern getula.He did his thesis on it. Here is a link but you will have to dig a little for it.

http://www.flmnh.ufl.edu/herpetology/kk/kkresearch.htm

-----
" there is really no such thing as an expert keeper/breeder, but there are those who let the snakes be expert at being snakes."

Frank Retes

Yeah I know the names were changed because of Kenny, that does not mean I have to agree with him. I can remember the first time Dr. Kenny and Lyn Krysco came to their first reptile meeting in Dunedin.
-----
B

the reptile meetings have been held in Clearwater at Moccasin Lake Park. When were they in Dunedin?

21 years ago when I started going to Suncoast the meetings were held at Dunedin Community Center off Patricia, the Mike (?)Dockery was President and John Lewis helped run it also.
-----
B

TYVM
-----
B

http://www.brucemeans.com/pdf/2006KryskoandJuddLampropelt.pdf

Most references are not up to date with this latest taxonomic revision. Basically, the only reason the name "meansi" was chosen rather than "goini" was that the original description of "goini" included snakes would now be considered intergrades between the eastern king and the Apalachicola kingsnake. "Meansi" is now used to the describe the Apalachicola king in its pure form. I would have rather they just redefine "goini", but whatever.

The latest previous taxonomic revision to "goini" was made by Blaney in 1977, where he took away their subspecies status, and described them as a disjunct intergrade between floridana and getula.

There was actually a show this past weekend on one of the nature channels in where they were trying to catch the elusive Apalachicola king. I missed the begining (my 3 year old daughter came to tell me that there were "kink" snakes on TV about 10 minutes into the show) but they did discuss the classification a little. I was hoping to see the "snake traps" they set up be a little more successful, they showed only 1 juvie black racer and 1 king caught, but not an Apalachicola. Very interesting show.
-----
Joe

FYI....That king he "caught" in the trap was a plant. It was actually an animal caught by a couple of other guys that frequent the ANF. Wouldn't have been much of a show if he hadn't "caught" something, so a little white TV lie and there it was!!!!

That doesn't surprise me at all when they kept going and finding nothing in the trap over and over and over. But like you said, it wouldn't have made for a very good TV show if they didn't "catch" at least one king.
-----
Joe

I was not aware of the name change.
-----
B

Let’s compare floridana with californiae for a second. They are found in the wild in 3 morphs and a wild caught has the possibility to give birth to all 3 morphs, yet they are still the same snake in the pet trade. Nobody tried to rename them nor did the 3 different phases start with separate subspecies’s latin names

People certainly refer to the different phases of cal kings by type (desert,newport,50/50,striped and on and on) Is it so criminal to refer to call them Brooksi rather then "Brooksi phase Florida Kingsnakes". I don't feel anyone is trying to misrepresent what they are, but it is certainly shorter. Is someone trying to create something that doesn't exist if they say they have a real nice pair of 50/50's? You know what they are talking about.
-----
"The band is just fantastic, that is really what I think. Oh by the way, which ones pink?"

Maybe it’s a field collecter/locality thing compared to the nerdy scientific end of it. If you’re into counting scales and huffing formaldehyde you probably don’t read this forum anyway, but most hobby snake buffs are the ones that want to know if the snake was found in specific areas, like the grayband guys with their Langtry, highway whatever, old windmill, etc. I think the Florida king guys want to produce the coveted high yellow “Brooks” type, and figure they get a better shot the further south the parent snakes are found. I personally don’t like stepping on the toes of the great naturalists from “the olden days” who had the right to name these snakes. Like the “Goini”. I think Means or whatever is redundant. The first guy was on to something, so let him have his credit. Write your paper, huff your formaldehyde, but let the historic names stand. Now with the hobby creating new versions of Florida king based creations, the originator likewise gets to name it or coin the hobby term, so we all know what the classified ad is selling without him having to pay extra to include a color picture. Science books and the hobby price list are about the same as a Porche and a Volkswagon baja buggy.

(below- Florida Kingsnake)

(below- Hypo sulpher yellow whiteside Jelly)

....pretty good visual analogy there.classic vintage shots too-hope those damn feral hogs are being at least somewhat kept in check.
-----
"with head raised regally,and gazing at me with lidless eyes,he seemed to question with flicks of his long forked tongue my right to trespass on his territory" Carl Kauffeld

>>>>>Nobody tried to rename them nor did the 3 different phases start with separate subspecies’s latin names.

Actually the California Kingsnake was divided into 3 species with 3 additional ssp.

Those were.....
L.california = Striped phase
L.nitida = melanistic Striped phase from S.Baja
L.g.boylii = Banded phase
L.g.yumensis = melanistic banded phase from around Arizona
L.g.conjuncta = banded melanistic phase from S.Baja

I've seen many people use yumensis, conjuncta and nitida phases to describe their snakes lineage and/or pattern variety.
Matter fact, here's my nitida....

As for the floridana discussion, I think everyone pretty much cleared up the "goini" problem in your post. With Florida Kings, I'd agree they should be called floridana unless they fit the description of brooksi. Brooksi was a certain pattern type, NOT a locality of any kind. If you have a Florida King that fits the DESCRIPTION of brooksi, I don't see a problem using it to describe it. The problem is, many use brooksi as a locality (S.Dade) or just because it's a "catchier" name with no regard to it's actual pattern type.

-----
Ace