Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Alright so I'm finally gonna get the burm I've always wanted.
My parents decided that they would get me ether a normal or albino baby burmese for xmas. I've been keeping snakes for 4 years but nothing big like a burm, so if you have any pointers that would be great. From what I've read the care is basicly the same as for the ball python, hot side, cool side places to hide, heat lamp, large water bowl and of course a big cage. (For now it will be house in a 50gal, whileI buildi t a larger cage). I was wondering if the temperments are dif from male to female or if its the same/ I hear that females are a little bit more "tame" but I'm not sure. Also alot of people say to have two people on hand when handleing after the snake reachs 8' , would it be okay if me and my bf were to handle it? A friend of mine had a large retic, it wasnt the tamest but he was handable, so I've been asking him about the larger snakes. Anyways any tips would be nice! Also feel free to post your pictures, cuz I would love to see them!!
-----
Kurama- Male Ball python
Seven- Female ball python
Ginseng- spotted Python

Shinnie- Rosy Boa
Hannibal- Male Hypo Boa
Cookie Torment- Female salmon boa

Peanut- Male red footed
Dragon- Leopard gecko
Yuki- House Gecko
Shirgure- House Gecko
Kyo- House Gecko
Blu- Blue tailed skink
Moo- Blue tailed skink
Ryou- Water Dragon (bfs)

(7 dogs, 1 cat, 2 birds, 1 hamster, 18 bettas, 13 goldfish)

First off, I love the names of your pets
Secondly, welcome to the burmese forum.
I would think that you and your boyfriend could handle the snake together at 8 feet, but I would add another person into the mix after 12 feet. You should go over safety precautions and develop a plan on what one of you would do if the other one were being bitten or constricted. That way if it does happen, one of you isn't just standing there dumbfounded while the other one is being attacked. It's unlikely to happen, but it could, so you both should be prepared far in advance.

As for the cage, I reccomend building one that has a front-opening door rather than a top that you remove to get to the snake. My burmese has calmed down considerably since I moved her from the 55 gallon tank with a top to a much much larger cage with drop-down front doors.

I'm not sure if there is a difference in temperment between the females and the males. I have a confirmed female, and an unknown (a rescue that I want to get in better health before subjecting to probing). The unknown is VERY aggressive, but it's probably because of its past. My girl, Pixil, sometimes hisses when you go to get her out of her cage, but then she is fine. That wasn't always the case though. When she was younger she was aggressive. She bit and wouldn't calm down, even out of her cage. She's still very young, and she gets "tamer" every day.

I have yet to meet a nice baby burmese. They're paranoid and bite out of fear. They hiss loudly. I worried that mine was an evil snake that would grow up to kill me, lol, when I first got her. But she grew out of it with time, handling, and a new cage. So if you get a baby that acts like I described, don't worry, just work with it.

Oh- and I reccomend frozen/thawed food for it. I'm treating a burm with rat-bite wounds right now, and I'm sure you don't want to go through that... neither does the snake.

Hope I've helped a little.
-----
~Sara~
"If you look down on me, I am evil, If you look up to me, I am God, if you look straight at me, I Am you"
-Charles Manson

Thanks ^^
Alright will do, yeah It'll be in a top open cage, just intell I cuild the new one, with slideing front doors. ^^
Yeah some of the babys at the local reptile shop (Exotic pets) Are decently tame, a lil nippy at first but they seem to calm down. Yeah I would have thought that to XD I have an evil Salmon boa right now, I've been working with her, but she dosent seem to want to calm down, I have no clue as to why.
Your message was very helpfull, thank you so much! ^^
-----
Kurama- Male Ball python
Seven- Female ball python
Ginseng- spotted Python

Shinnie- Rosy Boa
Hannibal- Male Hypo Boa
Cookie Torment- Female salmon boa

Peanut- Male red footed
Dragon- Leopard gecko
Yuki- House Gecko
Shirgure- House Gecko
Kyo- House Gecko
Blu- Blue tailed skink
Moo- Blue tailed skink
Ryou- Water Dragon (bfs)

(7 dogs, 1 cat, 2 birds, 1 hamster, 18 bettas, 13 goldfish)

Glad to hear you're gettin a burm. I have a male albino between 8-9 feet. He is very gentle, but feeds very aggressively. My 14 year old is my second when handling him, but I agree with the advice to have a plan. We handled him OFTEN as a youngster, so he is used to my touch, but they are like kids and each is different. Just know your snake and take extra precautions when feeding especially. Also, something I didn't think through too much was wearing loose clothing while handling him. Even though I don't let him drape around my neck, he likes to wind in and out of things. However, he's big and fast so he ended up weaving in and out of the armholes of a linen shirt I had on. Before I knew it he was constricting the fabric and choking me since the fabric had no give. It wasn't an attack, but was definitely a close call. Luckily I thought fast enough to yell for my daughter to cut the shirt in half. It's amazing how fast things can go wrong, so don't handle them by yourself when they get bigger. Have a great time!

I am going to reiterate and expand a little on what the previous poster stated(Sarah, I think). Definitely go with a front opening cage rather then a top. As a baby snake everything is bigger then it, and in the wild ALL of its natural predators would attack it from above since it is about as low as you can get. So naturally they are weary of anything coming in at them from the top.
General rule of thumb for any of the large snakes is two people for over 8' then an additional person for each additional 3'. Now this may be overkill but it is better to be over prepared then under. I do not care how big and strong you think you are, a 12 plus foot burm is much stronger then you are.
Babies are notorious for being nippy and defensive. Biggest thing is to first condition yourself to not jerk your hand(or whatever is getting bit) back when you get bit. This is hard and takes some time but you will experience far less tramatic injuries if you react properly. I have seen pics of people who had to have stitches and in one case surgery to repair nerves from jerking after a bite by a big snake. Condition yourself while it is a baby. Also, condition the snake. Use a hook whenever you are entering its cage. Gently stroke the snake,near the head and let it know that it is not going to be hurt or more importantly fed. Do this religiously every time you open the cage for anything except for feeding. If you get him out, or are just reaching in to get its water bowl, touch him with the hook. After time it will associate the hook with you. When it is time to feed, ALWAYS, feed in its permanent enclosure. This is the safest and least stressfull method. Open the cage, toss in the PK/FT rodent and let it be. Your snake will usually adjust pretty easily to f/t. Do not use your hook for any reason when feeding. It will soon learn to differentiate the two different times, and the quick touch of the hook will usually "snap" them out of Feeding mode.
Burms are notorious for being very vocal. They often hiss and when they get large their hissing can be quite intimidating. Learn its behavior and signs and you will learn when it is really upset and time to leave it alone or if it is just acting up. While it is a baby, if it does bite you, do not immediately put it up. Continue handling it for a few more minutes. You do not want to condition the snake to "knowing" that if it bites you it will get left alone. Hope this helps and I am sorry it is long. feel free to ask anymore Questions, Todd

Thanks, your message ws very helpfull ^^
Yeah, I've been bit and snapped at by my bps for coming at them from above, inless I rub a stick over them first. Okay, good safety idea, I'll work on getting more people, prob is that almost everybody I know is scared of a 4 foot bp, let alone a large burm XD Alright, I'll be handleing the snake alot while its small, I try to get a bond while there young and of course I handle my snakes at least once a day for a few mins, I try to handle them all as much as I can, inless it would cause stress to them, or on feeding day. Also on the biting thing, I have a young female salmon boa who hates me, and everyone else, do you think I should try the same thing with her to tame her down? thanks! ^^ ~ Georgia
-----
Kurama- Male Ball python
Seven- Female ball python
Ginseng- spotted Python

Shinnie- Rosy Boa
Hannibal- Male Hypo Boa
Cookie Torment- Female salmon boa

Peanut- Male red footed
Dragon- Leopard gecko
Yuki- House Gecko
Shirgure- House Gecko
Kyo- House Gecko
Blu- Blue tailed skink
Moo- Blue tailed skink
Ryou- Water Dragon (bfs)

(7 dogs, 1 cat, 2 birds, 1 hamster, 18 bettas, 13 goldfish)

hook training is helpful with all species of snakes. The practice is a necessity for any snake that can get over 8ft and it is never too late to start doing it. I previously had a 14ft african rock that was the devil incarnate and when I started hook training him, he could be moved for cleaning with minimal problems (only got bit once in 3 years after hook training started). Also handling every day is not a great practice in my experience as it provides a stessful situation every day and can lead to health problems for you (think a stressed snake is a snake more likely to bite) and your snake. On all of our large snake species we usually handle 2-3 times per week for very short time periods (less than 5 minutes) that simulate moving for cleaning, breeding, photo shoots and with a few animals public talks. It is my personal opinion from experience that no large snake should be handled for the purpose of "petting". It only takes a change of wind or airflow that could bring in the smell of rats, cats, dogs, or birds that can set-off a snake right into feeding mode which can be deadly with large constrictors.

now back to hook training. What we do is if the snake is not being fed, no matter what the reason for opening the cage the hook goes in first. If we are removing shed, waste, cleaning water, or just looking at the snake, the snake gets a very light tap on the nose and then moved with the hook before our hand enters the cage or tub. Burmese are very receptive to this and even hatchlings that are less than a month old almost never bite when performed consistantly.

I will stress as one of the other posters did, ALWAYS FEED IN THE PRIMARY CAGE. Removing a snake for feeding only conditions them to expect food outside of the cage which is a bad thing that can get you on the front cover of a newspaper in a very bad way.

One of the other posters also stated he would use thawed prey to prevent any damage to your new snake, well I disagree. As long as the prey item is the "right" size and you don't leave a rat in the cage unattended, you will never have a bite that can really damage your snake. The "right" sized prey item will be immobilized immediately by the snakes coils. The problem is there are people feeding 4ft burms large rats, which in that case you have to kill the rats first since the snake could get hurt very easily. Just because a snake can eat a very large meal doesn't always mean it should and in the wild they do not perform these feats on a routine basis as constricting and digesting these large meals takes up a considerable portion of the energy the provide.

I hope these posts have helped you and if you have any questions feel free to email.
-----
Josh & Krysty Hutto
J&K Reptiles

Various Ball Pythons, boas, dogs, cats, fish, an amel tiger retic female, a couple sulcatas and a few other odds and ends.

a BAD dog is MADE not bred, support the American Pit Bull Terrier as the greatest breed of dogs on Earth!!!!!

Thanks for the help, I will take in evrything you said ^^
As fo rthe food, I have a 4 foot bp that I feed two adult mice a week, rather then the large rat, they seem happyer that way ^^
-----
Kurama- Male Ball python
Seven- Female ball python
Avalon- Female ball python
Ginseng- spotted Python

Shinnie- Rosy Boa
Hannibal- Male Hypo Boa
Cookie Torment- Female salmon boa

Peanut- Male red footed
Dragon- Leopard gecko
Yuki- House Gecko
Shirgure- House Gecko
Kyo- House Gecko
Blu- Blue tailed skink
Moo- Blue tailed skink
Ryou- Water Dragon (bfs)

(7 dogs, 1 cat, 2 birds, 1 hamster, 18 bettas, 13 goldfish)

You're only seeing one side of the feeder issue.
If you feed frozen/thawed food it is more humane to the feeder. It's a LOT cheaper to buy.
You don't have to have rat cates, food, water bottles, bedding etc..
It removes ALL chance of a bite to the snake, whereas just watching the snake and rat is simply a feel-better thing for a keeper to do. If a rat were to attack the snake, you'd never get it out in time to prevent bites, whether you were watching it or not.
It prevents mites being transfered from feeders to snakes, as freezing kills that mites that a good portion of mice and rats have.
It helps curb the "if it moves it must be food" snake response. You don't have to sit there and watch the snake until it eats.

I don't know why you'd want to feed live food, except if you have some sick need to see things killed. Frozen is better all around.
-----
~Sara~
"If you look down on me, I am evil, If you look up to me, I am God, if you look straight at me, I Am you"
-Charles Manson

lol, what's more humane being choked and having your lungs frozen by a poorly built gas chamber or basically instantly dispatched by a finely tuned constrictor the way god intended for it to happen. When you feed the PROPER sized meal the animals die extremely quick with very minimal suffering. I've watched CO2 chambers take up to 5 minutes to "humanely" kill rats before.

as for the parasite issue, we breed all of our own feeders and I can guarentee that they have no parasites at all and freezing would only deminish the vitamins and nutrients in the gut of the feeder that the snakes need to live nice, long, and healthy lives.

the only time we ever feed pre-killed is when we move up to rabbits and larger meals on the burms and retics. To do this we usually quickly seperate the spinal cord from the brain and is 99.999% instant. Now if I was a "SICK" person, I would much rather do that than watch a snake kill it's own prey item. I guess I could build a large gas chamber but I think it would be dangerous to have one around that is large enough to kill 15-20lb rabbits/goats/pigs not to mention that would be a heck of alot of CO2.

It's funny, I never look down on those that feed frozen but it seems alot of frozen only feeders look down on those that feed live. We have over 100 snakes and if we feed frozen we'd be throwing away more than 50 rats away per feeding, I think I'll stick to live for now.
-----
Josh & Krysty Hutto
J&K Reptiles

Various Ball Pythons, boas, dogs, cats, fish, an amel tiger retic female, a couple sulcatas and a few other odds and ends.

a BAD dog is MADE not bred, support the American Pit Bull Terrier as the greatest breed of dogs on Earth!!!!!

Constrictors grab their prey and each time the prey breathes out they tighten their coils until the prey can no longer breathe in and have no oxygen to breathe out. That is death by suffocation, not being "instantly" dispatched. Constrictors kill their prey in the way that a badly built or badly operated CO2 chamber kills. When a person knows what they are doing and has built the chamber right, it is VERY humane. The prey passes out very quickly and then the CO2 level is upped and they die. If you do it right and watch, the animals don't freak out or act like they are in pain or scared. They simply "go to sleep".

Heating items reduces their nutritional content. So if you were to blanche your rats before freezing them, then your statement about nutritional value being deminished by freezing would be semi-correct. During room-temperature thawing, the small amount of moisture that is released from the frozen rat may have minute amounts of protein and minerals. So thawing technically reduces the nutritional value of a frozen rat, but not enough to make any difference at all. Of course, if you kill the rat and leave it sitting out for a while before freezing it, then you have lost some nutrition. Unless you were referring to these things, which I doubt, then you seem to be quoting a myth that has no basis in fact. I have heard it before, so when I was deciding what to feed my own reptiles, I did a lot of research on it. Those are my findings.

I breed most of my own feeders too, and I can tell you that I've had parasites. My feeders have gotten mites and lice from bedding, even bedding that claims to be "heat treated". Just because you breed your own doesn't mean your animals are 100% pest free. Unless you make all your own bedding, heat it all to 350 degrees in the oven for 15 minutes before using it, etc. etc., then I would bet most anything that you've had mites or lice on your feeders.

I guess my reason for "looking down" on live feeders is that I like both rats and snakes. If the rats don't have to die filled with panic because they are locked in a cage with a predator and can't escape, and filled with pain from being suffocated (and sometimes crushed, as well as being bitten, and sometimes torn apart) then I would never want to make them die that way. If you have options, why choose the least humane? I also "look down" on live feeders because I've seen SO many snakes (and monitor lizards) that have scars and infected bites because when rats are panicked and cornered they can be VERY aggressive. I'm nursing a burmese back to health right now in fact that has infected bites on its face and neck.

Now, I'm sure you've heard these arguments a hundred times before, so I doubt I'm going to change your mind. I'm just trying to counter some of the things you wrote for those who may be reading. They need more than just one opinion to base their decision of whether to feed live or frozen.

-----
~Sara~
"If you look down on me, I am evil, If you look up to me, I am God, if you look straight at me, I Am you"
-Charles Manson

actually the act of constriction not only stops the animal from breathing but also from utilizing the oxygen already in the blood system. This can be proved by actually taking the time to see how long a rat that is placed in a properly built CO2 chamber takes to quit breathing and also doing the same with a properly sized rat being constricted by a snake. The rat being constricted dies much much quicker. I also like my rats and my snakes and see feeding the snakes the rats as a necessary evil and view feeding days as the most unpleasant part of keeping snakes.

I also agree that when a CO2 chamber is built and operated properly they are as humane as one can get. However, the average hobbyist isn't going to or know how to build one that does not just release the CO2 into the chamber.

Both of us can debate the nutritional value of live over frozen but there has been no study to date that I know of that has actually been performed to test our theories. But I do know there has been studies on pure protein (chicken/beef/pork) designed for human consumption that shows teh protein breaks down during the freezing process and thawing process even when thawed in the fridge.

each reason alone isn't that big but altogether, they are reason enough for me to feed live. I will stress again, LIVE FOOD ITEMS MUST BE OF APPROPRIATE SIZE. Smaller, more frequent meals are better.

PS. we use lab quality bedding that is guarenteed pest free. These people supply 99% of the labs here in florida and I trust them as much as these million dollar labs do to not introduce any pests to our feeder colony which has been closed for well over 3 years.
-----
Josh & Krysty Hutto
J&K Reptiles

Various Ball Pythons, boas, dogs, cats, fish, an amel tiger retic female, a couple sulcatas and a few other odds and ends.

a BAD dog is MADE not bred, support the American Pit Bull Terrier as the greatest breed of dogs on Earth!!!!!

I base all of my views on nutritional value breakdown of frozen feeders on the studies done on human food as well. We must be looking at different studies. There is one key component to freezing properly though... a lack of air in the freezing bag/container is a must.

I envy you for having a supplier of lab-bedding. I'm not as lucky. I now use cell-sorb plus for all of my rats. I don't have mites or lice at the present, and I hope that I don't get a bad batch of the bedding in the future. My mite problem was horrendeous when I was using wood shavings.

I personally believe that if someone is unable to follow instructions and build a proper CO2 chamber and operate it correctly, then they have no buisness building one at all. Just like dislocation, if done incorrectly, it can be very cruel.
I think that when you say that rats die faster when they are constricted, you are literally meaning "die". I am meaning suffer. Rats pass out very quickly with CO2 and when it is done correctly, they don't appear to suffer at all. It may take a little longer for them to technically die, but they aren't feeling it. When they are constricted, they suffer immensely, regardless of how long it takes them to die.
-----
~Sara~
"If you look down on me, I am evil, If you look up to me, I am God, if you look straight at me, I Am you"
-Charles Manson

i will agree with you, the short time it takes a rat to die during constriction they do suffer, but far less than in a poorly constructed CO2 chamber. Also when dealing with the high number of snakes we house, we must also consider the cost effectiveness of using ft/pk. I will not put a dollar amount on our snakes but I will not also throw away money if it isn't necessary and when using proper feeding procedures, live is just as safe as frozen.

see I can agree you on some parts,lol.
-----
Josh & Krysty Hutto
J&K Reptiles

Various Ball Pythons, boas, dogs, cats, fish, an amel tiger retic female, a couple sulcatas and a few other odds and ends.

a BAD dog is MADE not bred, support the American Pit Bull Terrier as the greatest breed of dogs on Earth!!!!!

I basically agree with what everyone has said, especially having at least two people when handling.

The only thing I have to add is what to do if you get bit. If a snake stikes out of fear it will generally bite and let go. If it thinks you are prey, it will bite and wrap. Most people seem to go for the head of the snake to unwrap it, that's why you hear the stories about 4 firemen to remove a 10ft burm. If you unwrap it backwards from the tail it's usually pretty easy to remove. It gives you a lot more time to work on the head and not worry about sufficating. Two people when handling is a must, but it needs to be two people that know what to do.

Good luck with you new burm, they are great creatures and my personal favorite.

Talk to you later,
Randy
-----
Randy and Michelle
Art In Scales
(719) 439-4199
info@artinscales.com

Alright, thanks ^^
I heard that before, and yeah I'll make sure they know what to do, I have people who know what to do with the smaller snakes, and its just about the same, only you need an extra few people >< lol Thanks! ^^
-----
Kurama- Male Ball python
Seven- Female ball python
Avalon- Female ball python
Ginseng- spotted Python

Shinnie- Rosy Boa
Hannibal- Male Hypo Boa
Cookie Torment- Female salmon boa

Peanut- Male red footed
Dragon- Leopard gecko
Yuki- House Gecko
Shirgure- House Gecko
Kyo- House Gecko
Blu- Blue tailed skink
Moo- Blue tailed skink
Ryou- Water Dragon (bfs)

(7 dogs, 1 cat, 2 birds, 1 hamster, 18 bettas, 13 goldfish)

Well I want to chime in since I have been keeping Burmese, Indian Rocks and Boas for over 14 years now. With all of my burms I have had in the past and even the Indian Rock, when they were fresh out of the egg they were nippy but usually settled down after a few meals. The best thing is to get a plastic cage like a Vision 322 for the burm or you can use a 41 quart sterilite tub which works extremely well until you build or buy at least a 6x3x2 cage for it. My burms are currently in a 6x2.5x1.5 cage and it seems to fit them fine even though sometimes the height is a problem getting them out *considering my agm is 10 feet and my female double het normal is 12 feet*. I recommend feed in the cage once you get them and use a small hook or stick to train them. The only issue I have ran into hook training is with retics *I just barely got my first pair of retics this past September an albino tiger male and tiger het albino female* and trying to train my albino tiger he tagged me which did not hurt at all. I recommend do not handle any large snake over 12 feet by yourself..

As for hissing my burms were quiet unless threatened when they were babies but even then I was only ever bit when it came to feeding response and feeding in a separate tub. Since I switched to feeding in the cage I have been bit by 2 snakes my 6 Foot Colombian Female boa and my Albino Tiger Male Retic.. I basically have the retics realizing a hook means to hold or clean and the boa has been hook trained for around 6 months now. As for hissing my Burms will hiss pretty loud because they prefer to just be left alone but once out they are puppy dog tame and only hiss when they are startled because someone moves too fast around them. The Tics and the boa does not hiss at all.

Charlie

Thanks for the help! ^^
Yeah I plan on hook training, I need to work on hook training the rest of mine as well, I've been nipped a few times, useally dureing, or right after feeding. I've heard about the hissing, so when it calms down it wont be prone to hiss for no reson right? And also I love retics! Sounds like you have a beautifull pair! I cant get one anytime soon though, I dont have the room for one just yet. Maybe sometime next year, would love to hear updates with your retics though! ^^
-----
Kurama- Male Ball python
Seven- Female ball python
Avalon- Female ball python
Ginseng- spotted Python

Shinnie- Rosy Boa
Hannibal- Male Hypo Boa
Cookie Torment- Female salmon boa

Peanut- Male red footed
Dragon- Leopard gecko
Yuki- House Gecko
Shirgure- House Gecko
Kyo- House Gecko
Blu- Blue tailed skink
Moo- Blue tailed skink
Ryou- Water Dragon (bfs)

(7 dogs, 1 cat, 2 birds, 1 hamster, 18 bettas, 13 goldfish)

Just adding the my burm hisses VERY loudly sometimes, but almost always when he's being pissy because he is coming up on a shed. Usually a touch with a stick or whatever for a second usually calms him down. In extreme situations when I've had to move him regardless of his attitude (we were by the fires in Southern CA), a towel over his head and he's confused long enough to let me do whatever I need. I don't recommend it as a rule of thumb, but it works. LOL