Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hi all!

Camoflage is doing great, growing, feeding, exploring as usual. We have him on coconut fiber dirt (it's quite fine, actually), and we keep it damp except for the part directly over the heat sourse. We also just changed him from a 11x13" glass baking dish for drinking to a LARGE cat pan (covers almost 1/4 of the 75gal he's in right now!) and he's only left the pan on Sunday to heat up - all day, at least, he's soaking! (We switched him because he tried fitting his 8' of body into the little baking dish... only 1/3" of him fit in there, and the rest was directly over the dish)

No mites, the room is likely around 55% humidity on average durring the whole day, and with damp substrate and NO symptoms of near-shed or other illnesses (that I can tell), I don't have a clue for why he's been in his bowl for about a WEEK now.

Of course, he might be coming out at night, but I don't think the substrate is getting disturbed at night...

Thanks for whatevery suggestions you might have - As soon as we move, Tony is going to get his cage built and the young RTBs will get the 75gal until their cage is built... And then the dumerils will get it until they are almost full grown and need a 75gal each... THEN it will be perfect for a trio of bearded dragons. I love getting this all planned out - these critters are so much fun to own and watch....

Did I actually read that right? You are seriously keeping an 8 foot Burm in a 75 gallon tank? You need to find it a new home (that wont abuse it) ASAP!

Yes, I am keeping him in the 4'x1.7' tank as a TEMPORARY measure for right now. IF YOU HAD read my post, you would have seen that my husband is working on a new cage - less than 3 weeks from completion taking into consideration that he's working over 80 hours a week at his regular job while construction is in progress. Cam is not utterly heavy, so he actually takes up less than 1/2 of a regular pillowcase (when needed to be moved to somewhere using a vehicle). He's just a touch under the 8' mark, and he's out and about for about 30 minutes a day - more than most Americans, it seems. He's growing well, and eating well. I've CHECKED, and I don't see any stress facts outside of one warning-strike he gave my husband who splashed cold water on him by accident - 4 puncture marks and a hiss. It's why we always have both of us there with him whenever he's dealt with. Our 30 minutes of daily outdoor time between Tony and I almost always includes our burm, and he's allowed to explore the deck of our building and our living room when Becca (who's two) is napping or sleeping. He gets the chance to move around often.

And if the cage was so utterly small for him, he'd be trying to find a way out like he did when he was put into a 2'x1.5' cage for 20 minutes while we did a major overhaul on the cage to get rid of his mites, or how he tries to escape the pillowcase if we need to put him there.. The 75gal is not his permanent cage. PLUS, most people say an 8'x3' cage is sufficient for almost any burm but the largest - if a 15' burm who's not overweight could live in that with excercize, why couldn't a cage half that size work on a short measure for a snake half that size? Or a 10' RTB in a 5x2' cage?

Back to my question: What might this constant soaking indicate? He's happy outside, and we ourselves have to take him out of his cage so I don't think he dislikes it so much... No bad breathing. No mucous. No mites. Doesn't have indications of a shed. Clear mouth and scales and vent. Eating well. Temp gradient is good (75 low, 95 high when you get right at the bottom of the substrate or 89 at the very top - he digs down when he wants a bit more). No change in his friendly temperment.

BTW, in 3 weeks he'll be in a 8x3x2.5' cage that's well-reinforced, decent ventalation, and good 60% humidity in the herp room - certain critters will have more humidity as needed, and all will be able to soak in their cage or will get weekly/biweekly soaks, dependant on species and cage.

I DON'T mistreat my animals. Sorry if I gave you a heartattack.

~Krystie

so you know what I deal with, and it's a joy.
1:0 burm - Camoflage (unknown age - have had for 4 months. Growing 4-5" a month on average)
1:1:1 RTB - Frank (small 2yr), Tina(small 2yr), and Peachy Keen (yearling)
1:1 baby nic boas
0:1:1 baby ball pythons - Happy and Grumpy
1:0 adult ball python - Doc
1:1 yearling dumeril boas
0:0:1 baby nelson's milk snake
0:0:1 baby Cali King
0:0:3 baby corn snakes, varied
1:1 adult leopard geckos
0:0:2 young frilled dragons
0:0:1 water dragon
0:1 bearded dragon
1:1 veiled chameleon
1:1 collared lizards
0:0:1 iguana baby
36 tarantulas, 21 different species
0:0:1 Emp. scorpion
0:0:2 hermit crabs

PS - I don't want this to be an argument. I serriously just want to find out if there is ANYTHING that I might not have thought of before that's causing his constant-soaking. He was in this tank from almost the very start (decent cage for his 6'5" size, until the full cage was built), and we're getting the big cage together. I have a wrist injury where I cannot do many things, so Tony with his REQUIRED 12hr/day 6-7 days/wk job (for 2.5 months only) is building Cam a new cage that he'll be in for the rest of his life.

ON THE SCIENTIFIC SIDE: I'm CURIOUS, not wanting to fight. In the wild, these animals NORMALLY do not reach more than 12-14 feet even as 20 year old female adults because of the food supply in their native habitats (tho there are always ones outside the norm). So why are we required to feed them so much that they "often" grow to twice the weight and 1.5 the length? I'm just currious if there's been research on this whole issue. I don't have a problem with taking care of your animals for the best life possible. But I don't want to over-do it for Camo or my other critters. You can over-feed a RTB or Ball python and cut the life-span in half yet get them to be a another 20% longer/larger than the "norm" for the sp. Same with people - overfeed and we die quicker (relatively), eat less and you might live an extra 20 years. I just have been thinking it's the same for the burm. Certain critters, like iguanas naturally grow very rapidly, but feed them animal protein and they can get full-size in about 2 years instead of 4-6, and then die by 8years old because of kidney failure. Other sp grow much slower, such as certain insects. Burms grow VERY quick usually, but is it because people overfeed or completely the sp? Quick growth is not a bad thing, but too much food will increase growth sometimes severly. You can get a female ball to breeding size in 16 months by quick-feeding, "normal" feeding gets her there in about 24-30 months. What about burms? If Camo is growing and shedding nicely, I'll keep up his feeding schedule and increase food size/quantity as needed.

I don't know burms too well, and I'm of an age where many have had herps longer than my lifespan, but I'm intelligent and try my hardest to give the best care I can to all I am responcible for. That is why I ask questions. Cheers all!

I will play the devils advocate and then give my opinion on caging. First if you look at the european keepers, they strive for more naturalistic in decorations and size. I met one keeper from germany that strongly believed if you didn't provide a cage that's width length weren't at least 2 times that of the snake, you were abusing it. So that would mean for a 15ft snake you would need a cage 20'x10'. When I tried to call his bluff, he pulled out pictures that would rival any zoo's display. This man had a building divided into walk in enclosures of about 20'x10' fully decorated with rock outcrops, live palm trees and ponds that were fully filtered. Now was all that required, heck no in my opinion but in his it was. I think the cage size you are using now is fine, however the cage choice is not. I don't think any aquarium is sufficient for any medium-large boid as you cannot make them escape-proof.

now with all that said, let's go over your snake. You stated you had a problem with mites previously. How long ago was that? You stated that you have seen no signs of mites at the moment but soaking is a sign of mites if everything else is good and the snake is not shedding. Mites start the life as almost microscopic and the are almost impossible to see at the this time, your snake can be telling you they are back. Also the snake trying to cram it's body in a water dish that is way to small to bask is another sign of this or a sign the humidity is way too low. I hope this helps.
-----
Josh & Krysty Hutto
J&K Reptiles

Various Ball Pythons, boas, dogs, cats, fish, an amel tiger retic female, a couple sulcatas and a few other odds and ends.

a BAD dog is MADE not bred, support the American Pit Bull Terrier as the greatest breed of dogs on Earth!!!!!

I'll give him another complete go-over with the spray since you think it might be the mites. We had sprayed him three times (once every 3 days) before, took out the substrate the first time and sprayed it completely and used papertowels, changed them the second time and sprayed it completely again, and then lastly used bleach water to clean the tank completely and sprayed him the last time before putting him in with new substrate. And the substrate is nice and damp all the time for his liking, and the humidity was 65% on the hot side next to the substrate, nearly 80% right by the water bowl.

And the water dish is no longer that tiny thing. It's now a cat-litter pan that can handlehim when he's about 12' as well, so we have another 6-10 months or more for the pan... Then it will be good for a RTB cage! I only used the baking dish for awhile because I couldn't find anything else he wasn't tipping over - even with rocks in the bottom! As soon as he tried soaking in the 11x13" pan, I knew I had to make a severe search for a LARGE pan. Found it at Walmart - under $4, too!

We also have a total of 6 heavy-duty cage clips on the top of the cage for security. Thus, I'm happy about the security for the time being. Thank you.

Cage size. Those cages sound like an awesome thing to have. I would LOVE LOVE LOVE to eventually build a building where I can have cages big enough for each animal to fully stretch out and move around as they like... But that's at least 5-8 years away for me (newly married, 22 years old, and my husband is under one year at his job that will be his career until he retires if the company doesn't go under - very unlikely since it's General Electric). We'll see. I really like how some zoos are starting to give animals larger spaces and lots of stuff to keep them occupied - lobsters getting shells and rocks to "play" with, elephants having to hunt for their food, etc... I want to do more research into how we can inrich the lives of our reptiles - certain ones are easy, but I'm in the dark about snakes as of yet! So far, all the snakes like the fake plants I put in their cages - usually I find the plants next to or partly within the hide, or being used as a hide instead of the box provided! (those that use the plants used to use the box no problem, but 3 snakes prefer the greenery) So much to work towards... First step tho is to get everyone a bigger cage - for now they are in cages of minimum size at least, but I want everyone into good large cages that they'll like. Just three weeks and I can start getting that done. Oh, I do think that it's best to have a natural environment for many animals, but you have to think about what details are needed for the animal to be happy with it's life. Do they need 10 square feet of space for every foot length of snake, or 1? 2? 3? 1/2 or less? It depends on the snake itself and what it's girth should be for it being healthy, of course. I think a burm likely should have about 3.5-4 square feet minimum for each square foot of space the body takes up - my snake takes up just under 1.5 square feet, so I'd need 6 - I have just over 6, and that's WHY he needs the new cage right now.

And thank you SOOOOOOOO much for your response! I like nice people...

~Krystie

ps - sorry, I like to be thourough on everything so as people know more about what I'm trying to say and can answer me better. It either works, or annoys people... lol!

I just gave him a once-over and checked his whole length (neighbor is over to help me with him), and I don't see anything. But, just in case I'll give him and the whole substrate a complete spraying to see if that will help him. Then we'll take the substrate out Saturday night when Tony can help, and change the paper towels Sunday with another complete spray-down of the whole tank and his body. Then, new substrate next Wednesday... I also checked all the other snakes in the house (after a clothing change and washing up to my shoulders) and the lizards, and no one else has any signs. I'm absolutely keeping an eye on this, though. Thanks again!
~Krystie

What are you spraying him with? Every three days with any chemical seems excessive. And what are you using for a heat source while your burm is in the 75gal tank? If you are using a heat source such as a ceramic heater, or heat lamp pounding down on one section of the cage...he may be soaking to get away from the heat source. I have a couple of boas that do that.
I am replacing all my heatlamps with radiant heat panels.
Hoping that will make a difference.

He's on an under-tank heater for 50-60 gal containers, and our house is about 75*... He's been on the UTH for 4-5 days at a time before, and nothing has changed in the cage other than replacing the substrate after the mites and the different water bowl which is occupied by him. It's possible that it's too warm for him right now, but he has about 2.5' of space that is NOT on the heater that the bowl isn't on. Maybe he's just being odd for awhile - a man I trust who knows large snakes in the wild fairly well and has been breeding herps for a few decades says that sometimes his larger boids would just go on a water-binge in the fall for 3-4 weeks, and be hungrier as well. Maybe it's just the time of year for him?

I'm using DeFlea's "Reptile Relief." "Reptile Relief works through a different mode of action than pyrethrin based pesticides to kill mites and other reptile parasites." "2. Reapply as often as necessary, but not more often than at 3-day intervals. 3. Do not treat snakes for at least 6 hours after shedding their skin." Since it kills mites on contact, but I'm not sure of eggs, we did treat him 3 times before and sprayed the cage down twice, then bleach cleaned. It's possible more eggs on him hatched, so treatment is tonight. I unfortunately have BABY oil, not mineral, so my shopping list for tomorrow includes mineral oil.

For treating him, tho, we actually spray a papertowel and wipe him down thoroughly, although I'm considering a coat of mineral oil as well (I've read that it works well on killing the mites). Either way, I think that I might give him an oil coating once a week for a couple months just to make sure any eggs are gone. Right now I'm just going to think about the next few days - just too much to do with getting ready to move in another two weeks... Another reason that cage will be his in 3 weeks. We knew we'd be moving into a larger place, so we didn't force it to be done before that.

Thanks for your help!
~Krystie

Hi Krystie!
If you keep sprayin' & wipin' stuff all over your burm he's gonna keep tryin' to soak all that crap off of him. Ha! Ha! I mean that humorously, but seriously, too; not in a rude, crude way.

If you don't see any mites around it's eyes & under it's beely scales or crawlin' on it's belly, and you can put your hand on the substrate and leave it there for a minute without seeing mites then mites may not be your problem.

You are our eyes, you're relying on us to help your burm & we're relying on you to help us see. I strongly believe you realize that and I get the feeling that you're being fairly thorough, which is needed.

Would you by chance happen to have a screen top on that 75-gal tank? I see that the big water pan you recently put in there is over the heat source; Was the lil' baking dish over the heat source, also?

If the answer is yes to both of those questions then I suspect your burm is merely trying to stay warm or get as warm as it can get.

With an under the tank heater and the fact that heat rises, the screen top can't stop the heat from escaping. The top of the burm's back is most likely more than just a few degrees cooler than it's belly. While it's in the water, that temperature is equal all around it's body and warmer than the top surface of the substrate.

Now, let me jump back to mites for a minute. That Reptile Relief is OK stuff but I don't like putting any chemicals on my snakes/reptiles. Reptile Relief, to the best of my knowledge, since it doesn't use permethrin, does not stop mite eggs from turning into the larva stage. Therefore it does not interupt the mites' lifecycle, which is the only way to get rid of mites (the same way you get rid of fleas; you have to break their lifecycle.).

It's been so long since I've had to deal with mites (watch me wake up to cages full of 'em after this post) that I may be wrong on a few of the minor details. But I believe that every 7 - 10 days adult mites lay eggs.

If a person has mites, all they have to do is remove substrate & snake, clean inside/outside of cage with a mix of 5 - 10% bleach to water ratio. Soak snake for about 20 - 30 minutes, use paper towels, newspaper, etc... for substrate and clean water bowl. Do this every 7 - 10 days, 3 times in a row, and you'll see no more mites.

How much does bleach cost these days? Who doesn't have any layin' around?

I've heard good reports about Provent-a-Mite but I've never tried it. It's supposed to be pretty much a "one treatment" product.

Mineral oil isn't very effective, not at all. Soaking in plain ol' water is much better.

Hang in there!
HH
-----
Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

we've only had mites one time in the last 5 years from a bad quarentine (trusted someone that I had never bought from before, wrong move). Initial treatment envolved jumping up and down cursing for about 10 minutes (very good cardio workout). Next I removed the infected snakes and the rest of the snakes in the rack and soaked in luke warm water while the rest of the treatment occured. Next I took the infected rack outside and emptied the bedding into a garbage bag treated with provent-a-mite. After that I sprayed down the entire rack with POM and allowed to air out. Clean each tub with heavy bleach solution and then rinsed with alot of water until no more bleach smell. Allow tubs to dry out. After tubs were dry, sprayed each tub with POM and allow to dry and vent until no more smell. Placed butchers paper in each tub and sprayed with POM one more time. Air out tubs, dry off snakes and place animals back in rack. Then sprayed all floor in snake room lightly with POM keeping window open to vent fumes. place rack with snakes back in room. During next full cleaning day, every tub and cage treated with POM and flooring sprayed again. After 30 days treated everything one more time and again repeated 30 days after that. Have not seen another mite from first day treated. In fact, have not seen another live mite after soaking the animals. If you cannot find POM around you, equate lice bedding spray has the exact same active ingredient but the rest of the ingredients may not and it is not recommended nor has it been "scientifically" tested with snakes but it is more than half the cost (guess how I know the cost of it, lol).
-----
Josh & Krysty Hutto
J&K Reptiles

Various Ball Pythons, boas, dogs, cats, fish, an amel tiger retic female, a couple sulcatas and a few other odds and ends.

a BAD dog is MADE not bred, support the American Pit Bull Terrier as the greatest breed of dogs on Earth!!!!!

> > > Initial treatment envolved jumping up and down cursing for about 10 minutes...

That's what did it. Those mites said, "Golly dang, let's get the heck outta here, this fella's nuts!" Ha!Ha!Ha!

Thanks for the look in the mirror as I can see myself doing the same thing, if not worse. Mr. New Dealer would now be Mr. No Deal. Hahahaha!!!

Catch ya later, Josh!
Mike
-----
Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

The water bowl is actually on the cool side, which is still about 75* ambiant, so translate a couple degrees cooler for the water... Too cool for me to bathe for a couple weeks, but he's happy. We took him out today, and didn't see any mites. I also tried the hand-on-the-substrate trick for voer 2 minutes and didn't see any... But we'll do one more treatment after we get home from eating too much turkey and see what happens. Then a treatment just after we move on the 1st. Thanks for the suggestion for just water. It seems he's taking care of that himself, so I'll not worry to much about that.

If I see mites, I think I'll use the lice treatment next time with everything. grrrr.....

Thanks all!
~Krystie

By moving the water bowl over the heater (or under the heater if heating cage from above) you'll not only get the snake warmer, which it should be, but you'll also increase the humidity within the cage.

You didn't say whether you had a screen top or not, but, if you do, cover nearly all of it, except for about an inch on both ends, with plastic garbage bag, plexiglass aluminum foil, ot something to help retain humidity.

As for mite treatments, notice how thorough Josh said he was. That's what it takes, along with interrupting the lifecycle. To some what he did was way overboard, but to me, & and obviously Josh, too, it wasn't overboard, it was being effective, meticulous.

Hang in there with your "problem child." Hahahaha!!! Something will come to light as to "why" soon.

Take care!
HH
-----
Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

I inherited my burm with mites and a 75 gal tank, so I can relate. I would definitely treat the tank with either POM or Equate bedding spray before using it for any other reptile. In addition,I sprayed about a 2ft barrier on the carpet around the cage. The lady who gave me the snake had a collection of snakes, many of which had mites and the stand was made of particle board. I didn't know the history of mites except that she had treated a year or two ago. Well, she missed some! I went heavy on the treatment for about 3 weeks and sprayed the newspaper at tevery change plus the cage twice. Since I had about 30-40 herps in my house at the time, I really didn't want to deal with an infestation. The treatment seems to have worked for me as I haven't seen any in months.

As for the Reptile Relief...it is sodium based and can be drying to the skin. Applying at 3 day intervals means not more often than once every 3 days. It's pretty safe, though. We have a local reptile store that soaks theirs in a shallow bit of RR overnight. Can't say that I would go that route, though.

Well the best treatment that worked great for me was soak the snake in water and a little bit of mineral oil. Get some Listerine *brown* and mix with 50/50 water, spray the cage and wipe out with a towel, the listerine will clean, disinfect and kill any mites in the cage. Then I recommend either equate bedding spray or pam *provent a mite* and spray around you cages *especially if your reptile room or where your snake cage is has carpet*. Last time I had mites which was almost 2 years ago *last time I ever bought a snake from a petstore in my area*. I also used reptile relief as well, which worked great on killing the mites but the equate I used made sure I never had tehm again. Bleach method works but I hate the fact that you have to rinse the cage because of the fumes even when it is mixed with water... Try the listerine method for cleaning your cages *you will be surprised on how your cages smell and how easy it is to just spray and wipe off*.. Big thanks to Bebo and Juggalo *who told me about the listerine as a cage cleaner*.

Charlie

And thank you, Charlie, for passing this info on. I don't think I've ever heard of using Listerene before but I can see where it might be safe since it's fit, somewhat (Ha! Ha!) for human oral use.

Take care!
HH
-----
Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

Pixil soaks after a large meal. Did you recently feed a larger feeder or more food or more frequently? If so, that could be your issue, if not, oh well.
-----
~Sara~
"If you look down on me, I am evil, If you look up to me, I am God, if you look straight at me, I Am you"
-Charles Manson

No, he got his normal giant of a giant rat, and he's ABOUT to be changed over to two near-giant rats since he's growing...

But then, maybe because he didn't HAVE the chance to soak before after a meal, he's making up for the three months where he didn't get to soak whenever he wanted? He always got new water twice a day (he drank alot and spilled often), so he was well-hydrated. But now he's ULTRA hydrated! Lol!

Thanks for your help! It might just be a big meal for him where he wants to soak. Or it just feels really nice to him to soak. I know some people that love 2hour soaks while others will be in and out in under five minutes... If things don't change shortly, we'll get him a full check up with the vet just to make sure, too.

Again, Thank you!
~Krystie

While this idea doesn't pertain to burms, my boas soak a lot.
They soak uner two conditions. Heat from the heatlamps (I'm switching over to RHPs), and when temps drop.

You mentioned your house temp is 75*, but what is your cage temp?
UTH don't provide a whole lot of heat, especially if something is blocking the heat they receive.
I'm thinking your temps are two low.
The reason I'm using my boas ( all different species) instead of my burms as examples... dont give my burms bowls big enough to soak in. Nor do I do that for my boas, but they manage to squeeze into the bowls.
Check your cage temps.