Reptile & Amphibian Forums

NOTE: This is a continuation of the the thread titled "RE: I'm glad you care about your ball. ..sentiments echoed!!!!" Here is the url to it: forums.kingsnake.com/view.php?id=140619,140619

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>>"What is this? a competition to see who can stuff the largest prey item down their snake without killing it?? Grow up!!"
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>>My thoughts exactly!!!
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>>1.1 Python regius (Monty Python & Cheetah)
>>1.1 Gerrhosaurus major (Falkor & Gizmo)
>>0.0.3 Cordylus tropidosternum (Rocco, Senna & Zoë)
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>>Naara.net
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A competition?

no. I can only speak for myself. In my case, I was trying to make the point that one does not have to worry about size of prey. On BP forum, every once in a while someone will ask about size of prey. The answer, once and for all, is that one does not have to worry about the size of prey AT all! BP's will only eat sizes THEY can handle. Humans don't have to artificially control the size. I think that was my point. I certainly am not interested in competing for the BIGGEST Feeder Award. It is not a title after which I seek.

I used extreme pictures but I only sought to make a fairly simple point.

And I think you who think that the snake is being stuffed, you are Anthropomorphizing your human feelings to the snakey's.

Here is a theoretical point, since you brought out going South (To Hell!),-- if I, as a human, were a glutton, my punishment would be gorging and being stuffed eternally . However, if I were a snakey, Lucifer would not/could not use gorging as a torture/Hell devise on me. This is because I believe that being stuffed gives the snake no negative emotions. In fact, I Anthropomorphize the other way: that they probably feel pretty darn good about it!

If you looked at the original retic pic and saw any negative emotions in it, I propose that you are only attributing your own human emotions to the snakey. In nature (and, if allowd, in captivity), they eat large meals any time they darn well feel like it!

Just look at the original retic pic I showed. If you saw discomfort in that snake, Look again--This time, look inside of yourself and see that you are attributing your human experience to it. YEP! .

None the less, I feel that this has been a very civil discussion and I certainly appreciate the other points of view.

Being a physician, albeit a None-practicing one at the moment (ie graduated medical school, but chose to not finish the licensing requirements), whenever I try something new, I apply the old Hippocratic rigors of Primere Nocere! (First do no Harm). For, if I am doing no harm, then I feel free to experiment to my heart's content. And While it is true that I can't say that feeding large has more benefits over feeding small, I can say that feeding large does no harm. I came to this conclusion based not just on my personal experiences. It is also based on writings/posts of major experts in the field of pythons.

For example, Bobclark wrote in the most recent issue of Reptile USA: "I don't worry much about the size of Prey. If it's too big, the snake won't eat it and no harm done." (page 117, 2003 Annual Reptile USA magazine). BTW, Please don't confuse Reptile USA with the regular Reptile mag. (They are two different mags, in case you are looking for the mag and can't find it, they are @ Petco shelves).

Now that the most important question has been answered (ie whether it does harm), I can go back to the question of benefit. Benefit is harder to pin down. There are probably benefits to both feeding small and large. On the one hand, people say feeding small allows more nutrients to get into the snake (makes logical sense!). On the other hand, my personal observations is that feeding large has helped my snake's head grow more porprotionally. So, there are benefits to both.

So, what to do? Well:
I think just to cover the bases, I will mix up feeding small and large. Sometimes I will feed large. Other times I will feed small. This way, I can get the benefits of both feeding large and feeding small. Aha! Eureka.

See, no one can say that i don't care about my snakeys. Lucifer no longer has grounds to take me south to that hot place!

Cheers.

P.s. Please have a great feeding small large day!

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Longtang. I like snakes and rats.

P.s. Disclaimer: That retic picture is not mine. It belongs to Dr. Jay Owens. I am Dr. Chin Tang aka Dr. longtang. We are two different people and not in anyway affiliated.

Dr. Jay Owens and I are two different persons. I got permission from him from bobclark dot com to use the pic to make a quick point.

Here is the thread to Dr. Jay's post, if you would like to see it for yourself: www.bobclark.com/bcforums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3030&FORUM_ID=11&CAT_ID=1&Topic_

thx. I just didn't want any confusions, nor did I want to be accused of trying to pretend that I am Dr. Jay.

thx.

Please have a pleasant Ball python day.
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Longtang. I like snakes and rats.

I have had a (milk) snake apparently suffocate while trying to eat a large meal. I have seen a picture of a dead baby ball python that apparently suffocated trying to eat another baby ball python (very very rare). I have also had non ball pythons regurgitate apparently due to excessive meal size.

I'm thinking that ball pythons may be particularly sensible about not trying more than they can get down but I'm not ready to say that they can't get into trouble just because I haven’t seen it yet in my limited experience with them. In general, they can probably eat a lot more than most owners give them credit for but I'm not sure large meals are completely safe. It would be interesting to hear from those with lots of experience with ball pythons as to if they have every seen problems due to large meals.

After owning multiple species for a decade , I find that Ball Pythons are able to take the biggest meals without adverse effects. Them and the Carpets. I NEVER have to worry about their prey ize.
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It's just that after keeping ball pythons for only a decade I'm not yet sure it couldn't happen just because I haven't seen it yet. I would agree that they do seem to be one of the better snakes in this respect; I'd just like to hear confirmation from those with more experience.

I am just wondering how you came to the conclusion that a ball python's head will be more proportionate feeeding large prey. If you really wanted to make this claim, I would think keeping a number of BPs, half fed on small prey and half on large prey, would show this. This situation actually occurs. A lot of people on here have multiple snakes, and sometimes certain snakes will only eat specific prey sizes - I have yet to see differences in the proportions. Also, as someone educated in a medical field, I'm sure that you must have an idea of why this would be true? I know I question everything and I can't come up with any physical or biological reasoning behind it. Therefore, I am inclined not to believe it.

Also, if the snake were the one choosing to eat that size prey, I wouldn't worry about it. That's not the case here. Your snake is choosing to eat something smaller, and you follow it with the rat. The snake in this case has no idea how large the prey is going to be and will, in most cases, swallow it anyway. You have education in the medical field - do you honestly think that it would be comfortable to have your stomach overextended to that degree? Yes, I've seen pics of different snakes that ate huge prey items - they're opportunistic animals and have to take what they can get. If given a choice of that and a smaller prey item, I doubt that they would have eaten what they did.

Does it bother you at all that you're snake is not making the choice to eat the prey size you're giving it? I've fed like this (followed one food item with another) and still do, but it's because I have a couple very finicky snakes and want to make sure they get enough to eat. My goal isn't to stuff them.

couple of points that are duely noted.

1. you are correct. I have not had enough experience, nor have i seen enough to really say that feeding large truly does help head growth. Thank you for pointing that out. I don't want it to be taken as fact. It should only be taken as one individual's biases/unbiased(??) observation. Without the side by side comparison of the experiment that you proposed (ie get large # of BPs and do everything the same except for prey size), there is no way to say if I am right. This experiment would also go towards deciphering whether bp's grow faster on large meals fewer times or smaller meals more frequently (ie., keep total number of grams being fed per week the same: ie 100g once a wk. or 50g twice a wk.) It is definitely a very interesting experiment!

2. I am still in the process of switching to rats. Therefore you are correct that I am following the mouse with a rat. I don't even consider the mouse really part of the diet. They are just an appetizer for the real meal. Sometimes the mice I use are two week old fuzzies. They certainly are not meals for an sub-adult BP's. I just use the mouse in helping me to switch from mice to rats. Once they are completely switched over, then the snakeys can really begin to choose whether they want to eat the variously sized rats or not. In the mean time, I am careful to not give too large.

Thx for keeping me honest.

sincerely.
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Longtang. I like snakes and rats.

I care deeply for my pythons, more then most of you could really understand. ALL my cash goes into this hobby, and then some. I would never do anything to hurt my darlings, and I certainly know their limits. Right now the babies are still on adult mice, and they are only hatchlings. They can take it, and it only helps them grow. Monty got moved up to rats that really give him a stretch about 2 months ago, and he's just a yearling, but yet he down rodents the size most people would feed 4 footers. He's 38 inches, and 2 pounds. My little baby, with a big appetite. He really got growing when the rats started coming, they only seem to help.

I can vouch for longtang, it does grow the head. I had always noticed Monty had a tiny head, when he started rats it became more proportioned. It might just be me and long, but yeah, it does work.

I don't do this as some kind of contest, and the fact is none of has has come near their limits. I only got pics this time around because the digi was handy, but this is typical. Just a tad bigger then usual, but he was able to take it easily. He knows his limits, and I always have other smaller rodents around. He gets a large rat every 2 weeks and seems to be content. As opposed to a jumbo mouse every 5 days, they simply do not do him any good.

You others can continue feeding jumbo mice for fear of killing your snake, but don't go claiming we don't love our snakes. Nothing could be further from the truth. Rats have done nothing but good, why not give it a try? I have a male yearling the size of bp's 2 years old, and I'm no where near power feeding him. The results speak for themselves.

Time for some pics:

Comments welcome, keep it cival.

All that crap on my floor is repti-bark.

I've always wondered if snakes can tie themselves in knots.....


Man....I didn't realize how big this rat was....

Anyone see that rock python eat that gazelle on animal planet???

Mine eat rats also but they do vary in the sizes of rats they prefer, and if yours is choosing to eat prey items that big than I don't see a problem with it. I was just questioning some assumptions made with no real good evidence to back it up. I can't help it. It's in my nature...

As far as the head growing, that happens as they get older - you'd really need to do a comparison with other snakes eating small prey items to back it up. Besides them just reaching a certain age where their head size catches up (which I have seen in either case) I can't come up with a scientific explanation why the size of the prey would make the head grow bigger. Of course they eat more as they grow older, and switching to larger prey usually means in increase in the amount of food. This could also be achieved by feeding more often - not that I'm saying that this is the preferred method. I am more in the middle - I feed small - medium rats (all I have are adults at the moment) depending on the snake, but nothing that's proportionately that large. Anyway, I just don't believe that it's the size of the prey, just the increase in the amount of food. If it were the size, that would be like saying that if a child took bigger bites of food, his/her skull size would grow faster to accommodate it. Or a baby giraffe's neck will grow longer faster if it has to reach for food instead of eating it off the ground. That's what I'm questioning...

>>Mine eat rats also but they do vary in the sizes of rats they prefer, and if yours is choosing to eat prey items that big than I don't see a problem with it. I was just questioning some assumptions made with no real good evidence to back it up. I can't help it. It's in my nature...
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>>As far as the head growing, that happens as they get older - you'd really need to do a comparison with other snakes eating small prey items to back it up. Besides them just reaching a certain age where their head size catches up (which I have seen in either case) I can't come up with a scientific explanation why the size of the prey would make the head grow bigger. Of course they eat more as they grow older, and switching to larger prey usually means in increase in the amount of food. This could also be achieved by feeding more often - not that I'm saying that this is the preferred method. I am more in the middle - I feed small - medium rats (all I have are adults at the moment) depending on the snake, but nothing that's proportionately that large. Anyway, I just don't believe that it's the size of the prey, just the increase in the amount of food. If it were the size, that would be like saying that if a child took bigger bites of food, his/her skull size would grow faster to accommodate it. Or a baby giraffe's neck will grow longer faster if it has to reach for food instead of eating it off the ground. That's what I'm questioning...
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Biologically, tissues grow/strengthen in respond to stimuli. A muscle builder have bigger bones than the average joe. Furthermore, even as a regular joe, if you measured your right wrist, it will be larger in diameter than the left (assuming you are right hand dominant). This is because the bones in your right arm have thickened in response to the higher work-load you put it through.

The fact that bones grow stronger/thicker in response to stimuli is well known in medical science. This is why we tell post-menopausal women to do weight bearing exercises in order to prevent/slow the progression of osteoporosis.

It wouldn't be that big of a leap hypothesize that maybe in response to stretching, the skull/jaw bones grow larger. (Surely, comparing human bone growth under weight bearing conditions to snake's head growth under stretched stimuli isn't exactly comparing oranges to oranges. However, I believe that the biological explanation for head growth may well likely be found down this path). Of course, only by conducting the experiments you proposed, can we really be sure that feeding large really has an effect on head growth.

So far, I only have antecdotal evidence (ie., my snake's heads were small before I started feeding large) to my claims. Do I ever really plan to collect cold hard statically sound evidence to prove my statement? Probably not. This is a hobby. I am going to leave it as a hobby so I can spend time loving my babies rather than spending my days collecting rigorous scientific data.

None-the-less, my number one concern is (and as well should be) whether feeding large would harm my snakey. I am satisfactorily convinced that it does no harm. I believe that folks who feed jumbo mice to adult BP's because they are afraid of killing their snakes are a bit on the overly cautious side--not that that is a bad thing, mind you. However, if you will pardon my bluntness, I believe their fears are based less on the reality of the snake's potentials, than their own personal feelings. To demonstrate my point: I have been asked in the past, "how would you like it if someone stuffed a 100 lb. cow down your throat?", clearly I would not like it and it would kill me. However, if I were a snake, i think I'd like it just fine!) :-0

Sincerely,

p.s. Please have a pleasant BP-loving day.
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Longtang. I like snakes and rats.

yes, bigger, as in denser, but not in length/overall size. There is a very distinct difference in the two. If that were the case, then short people could become taller through vigorous excercise - doesn't happen. Yes, women losing bone mass should do weight-bearing excercises - again, that affects bone density and doens't actually make the person grow. I'm very right-handed and there is no measureable difference between my wrists. In something even smaller, like a snake's head, any possible difference in size caused by a density increase would be miniscule; you wouldn't be able to measure it, let alone see it. Besides, I don't believe that the actual feeding process happens often enough or puts enough stress on the bone to affect the density. Even if it did, it still wouldn't affect the actual size of the skull.

Oh, you said that you think the bones could be stretching(?) in response to feeding? Biologically even more implausible, if you ask me. Again, there's the issue that the snake is not fed often enough to stress anything. I'll agree, bones can be 'stretched' to a degree. For example, doctors can increase the growth of a child who is destined to be extremely short, but this requires more than a weekly hour-long pull on their arms and legs. They have to break the bones first and keep constant pressure on them for months. Growth occurs in the break as the body tries to heal itself. It's technically not stretching the bone...

Is it not just easier to say that the snake was just getting a larger amount of food and was growing faster, or that hatchlings and young snakes are often out of proportion (kind of like human adolescents) and need a little time to grow into their bodies?

I know this wasn't your main issue, but as I said, I question things when they makes no sense to me - especially in this case coming from someone with a background in biology.