Reptile & Amphibian Forums

The thread below does pose some interesting questions. Let's say "Bill" purchases a 100% het albino from "Ball Python Morphs". Then "Bill" decides to sell the het BEFORE proving it. Who is responsible?

A) I normally do not sell an animal as 100% unless I HAVE PROVED IT as such. That includes picking up animals from large, trustworthy breeders. But if I purchased a 100% het from a big breeder and sold it without proving it, it should be up to me to make it right with my customer. Then I need to go back to who I purchased the snake from and have them make it right with me.

B) If the animal is truly legit, the original breeder (or last person to prove the animal) should not have any issues with trying to make things right. I sold a 100% het to a guy who then sold it to someone else. That person called me and I was able to verify that that was the animal and it was 100% het - he proved it out this past season. But just because it changed hands did not relieve me of my responsibility. Or does it? In my mind it does not.

C) We all feel more confident reselling a 100% het purchased from a big breeder than a smaller breeder. Should we? If you sell it as 100%, does that make you responsible?

D) If you question the genetics at all, is it ok to say you purchased this animal as 100%, but do not guarantee since you did not prove or produce it?

E) If you were the buyer, how would you want to be treated?
-----
Jay A. Martin
Jay Martin Reptiles

I did my business with you and not the other breeder. Before I buy I would ask if YOU are backing the guarantee. If you are, I would probably buy from you. If you are not, pass, no sale.
When I resell a het, proven by me or not, I let the buyer know up front what, if any, guarantee they are getting. I ask before I buy and I tell the buyer before I accept the sale/payment.

No, I don't necessarily feel more comfortable reselling a het just because it came from a big name breeder. It depends on the big name breeder. They don't all have good customer service.

If it is sold as a het, you are responsible to your customer and then you need to go back to who you bought it from if you did not produce it.

I was given a baby 100% het female by a respectable breeder once as compensation for a market turndown while I had an animal on a payment plan (didn't need to do anything since he had no control over the market but he was a great guy and included the bonus). I in turn sold the animal to someone else down the road since I ended up aquiring a visual female of that morph. I included a copy of the photo ID and genetics guarentee with it when I sold it(I still have a copy in my records). He in turn sold the animal to someone else last year.

I guarenteed the genetics to my buyer but do not know what he guarenteed his buyer (or the persons name for that matter-all I know is last time I spoke with him about the het, he said he sold it to someone).

I feel that he should be responsible to his buyer if it doesn't prove out and then bring the evidence to me about it not proving and that he compensated his buyer. I would then compensate him since I sold it as a 100% het. After that, I would have to go back to the breeder who produced it to get compensated.

The genetics guarentee should never change and as long as there is a history that shows who produced it and where it eventually ended up. All parties along the line share responsibility ending with the original breeder.

The problem I see is when the trail is lost (as in the case of my buyer not remembering who he sold the animal to).
In this situation, he has now taken responsiblity for the genetics and needs to be held accountable. Unless he has the trail of where it went, I don't see how myself or the orginal breeder should now be accountable for it. Any het sold, whether you produced it or not, should have a paper trail in case down the line it doesn't prove out.

IMO - ultimately the responsibility lies with the person that produced and guaranteed the genetics.

Now I've seen many a stipulations in genetics guarantees where the guarantee only applies to the original buyer (you) unless producer is notified and clears the transaction, or only applies if x, y and z conditions are met - so that also has to be taken into consideration. As a buyer you need to verify this stuff ahead of time and be very clear on these conditions.

I have also seen resellers assume or additionally back the genetics of animals - but unless this is addressed ahead of time and in writing either in their TOS or sales agreement then one should not assume it to be so. However, if for some reason the producer did not back the animal - I (as I think most people would) would do whatever I could to make things right with my customer.

And yeah - if you aren't sure of the genetics - you should definitely state as such and make clear what if any guarantees are expressed, written or implied.
-----
Tosha
JET Pythons

Insert Silly Quote Here

I think its fairly simple:
If you sell it , you back it up..period!
So if you sell something you bought from someone else as 100% it is 100% your responsibility to back it up. The it is up to you to take it up with the guy you got it from to make it right to you.
I speak from personal experience, I bought a pair of 100% DH albino leopard boas from CBWF , they turned out to be bogus. This guy was suppose to have 30 yrs in the biz, good name yada yada yada.. He simply told me he cant refund my money and he got ripped off too. I'm out 8k and not much I can legally do about it.

If I were to have sold those to someone else before we all found out they were normals, I would have had to make it right with the person I sold them too.

Like I said, you sell it , you back it up, no matter what.
When it comes to 100% guaranteed genetics that is.

Thanks
Mike

First off buying hets from the second owner is not a good idea.I have bought groups with hets and if the seller did not produce them I dont pay het value nor do I consider them hets until they are proven out.I also dont stand behind my hets if they change hands because then I have to deal with two buyers and if they the mixed up the animals.I prefer not to micro chip but it can keep the record straight.Terry

people screw up and mix snakes up all the time....

friends of people can screw up while playing in the racks...

.....and at the prices today........?????.........
.
.
-----
..............

..................
.

How about if you've purchased a female and tried to breed her to multiple males in her 3rd, 4th 5th and 6th year unsuccessfully.

You have produced thousands of babies from many different species of reptiles, mostly snakes, over the years. So it's not a question of experience and the breeder you've purchased her from has about 25 years experience in breeding reptiles. You also have all the documentation proving he produced the animal.

You've approached the breeder and his response is...sometimes females just don't produce and there is nothing he can do for you.

My question is, would you expect the seller to compensate you some how?
Keith
earth's exotics

-----
www.earths-exotics.com

As someone who will be buying hets in the near future, this means a lot to me. If I buy a 66% het that doesn't prove out, that's my loss, and my gamble for buying a 66% het. Same goes for if I buy a snake that is not proven. But, if I buy a 100% het that is guaranteed by the seller to be that, then regardless of where that het came from, it better prove out. 100% means a visual morph was bred to a normal or to another het; there is no room for mixup and an observant person can easily tell two babies apart.

It is my job as a buyer to make sure I go to a reputable seller, but I am buying the animal from THAT seller, not from whoever sold the snake to the person I'm buying from. If the 100% het sold to me does not prove out, even after being bred to a visual morph, then I expect compensation from the seller I purchased from because it's false advertisement. Honestly, I as a buyer don't care what happens beyond that, because the deal was between me and the seller.
However, if the snake has papers and photos proving that my snake is 100% het, and the clutch I got from it is just bad odds, then I have no problem with waiting another year or even two to be sure. However, if more than just a couple clutches come up without any visual morphs...I'm going to be asking if maybe there wasn't a mixup in the incubator, and I'll probably want a different snake of the same size.

Just my two cents.

~jenny

When
-----
"Polysyllabism in no way insures that what you're saying is actually worth being heard." - Blake (an e-friend of mine)

"I have never made but one prayer to god, a very short one: "O lord, make my enemies ridiculous." And he granted it." - Voltaire

You are only responsible to the person you sold it to....

If your buyer comes back to you saying that the hets you sold them (produced by another party) didn't prove - and you refund their money like a good little seller.

Would you need to disprove them yourself prior to seeking compensation from the breeder that produced them and sold them to you? Or would you expect the original breeder to refund your money based solely on a third party's (who they don't have an obligation to) breeding results?

And what happens if the person you sold them to sells or trades them off and doesn't want to back the animal - are you now responsible?
-----
Tosha
JET Pythons

Insert Silly Quote Here

>>You are only responsible to the person you sold it to....
>>
>>If your buyer comes back to you saying that the hets you sold them (produced by another party) didn't prove - and you refund their money like a good little seller.

Let's say I bought a 100% het Ghost from "Bob's Reptiles", I then sold it to you as 100% het Ghost. I would expect that all reasonable attempts at proving have been done. If you bred it to a homo Ghost and produced more than a couple of eggs and no homo, I'd say the odds were against you, to try again (which is what I'd do the situation were reversed). If you averaged 8 eggs over two seasons with no homo animals to show, we'd need to start talking.

Now, that being said, trust is a big issue. How do you really know the person isn't lying? Seems like a lot of trouble, but then I'm really amazed at some people in this hobby.

Bottom line though, is I feel I would be obligated to you to make your situation right. Making it right with the breeder I got it from is an entirely different matter that would be of no concern of yours. But at the end of the day, I would want proof!

>>And what happens if the person you sold them to sells or trades them off and doesn't want to back the animal - are you now responsible?

If they sold them or no longer have them, personally, I don't feel I would be responsible. For one, as part of "making it right", I would want the animal back to prove for myself and reputation.

This is a great thinking thread! But there are lots of "grey" areas and solutions based on a case-by-case.

KARMA You owe it to yourself
-----
Jay A. Martin
Jay Martin Reptiles

If you were the breeder that produced the het - would the breeding results of the third party be sufficient for you to make good to your buyer (the middle man) or would you require them to prove or disprove the animal?

And if you are the middle man - assuming you've made good to your customer - would you expect the breeder you bought the het from to make good to you without first proving or disproving it yourself?

Lots of grey areas huh!!!
-----
Tosha
JET Pythons

Insert Silly Quote Here

>>If you were the breeder that produced the het - would the breeding results of the third party be sufficient for you to make good to your buyer (the middle man) or would you require them to prove or disprove the animal?

If I sold a snake to "Billy Bob" and he sold it to YOU (Tosha) and you adequately tried to prove it, I would trust YOUR word - nuff said! But if Joe Schmoe said he tried to prove it, and let's say was using another unproven het, well, I'd want better proof.

>>
>>And if you are the middle man - assuming you've made good to your customer - would you expect the breeder you bought the het from to make good to you without first proving or disproving it yourself?

Not without proof. But if I found adequate proof to refund my customer, I would present that to the person I got the het from. At this point, it does get even greyer (sp).

>>
>>Lots of grey areas huh!!!

Oh yeah. But the bottom line is not so much what a person says as much as what they do - actions speak louder than words. There are tons of people who will give you "lip" service and never really help you. I have been burned a few times and while I tried everything to avoid it, it happens.
-----
Jay A. Martin
Jay Martin Reptiles

If someone wants to get a refund on a Het male, I am sure most people would just send a check for the $150 they paid, and try to figure out what went wrong...

However, a high priced Het male or a Het female might be different. Honestly, if someone came to me about a Het female that did not prove out, I would probably want her back, to check pics against, and to breed myself to see if the buyer is telling the truth. With the prices diving, lying about a Het not being a het could be an easy way to get some ill advised or overspending cash back.

Dave

>>With the prices diving, lying about a Het not being a het could be an easy way to get some ill advised or overspending cash back.
>>

Yeah, scary huh. Again, this is why we have to police ourselves.
-----
Jay A. Martin
Jay Martin Reptiles