Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I currently own a 2.5 year old Snow Corn and i'm wondering if anyone has any experience in breeding them with Black Rats and what sort of color morphs have you seen come from this type of pairing? Any advice and or pics of offspring would be great!!

Thanks, Andy

For starters, if it is a female corn to a male br then don't do it. Ratsnakes eggs are much larger than con snake eggs and it can be very difficult for her to lay them. I disagree with hybrids, and the cornxbr is not even a pretty one. I guarantee you that you will have those babies so long that you will basically have to give them away.
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-David Harrison-
.1 Snow Corn "Hope"
1. Striped Anery Corn "V" or "5".....Has two names
1. Orange Albino Black Ratsnake "Chunk" (Goonies)
.1 Orange Albino Black Ratsnake "Peaches"
.1 Ball Python "Cleopatra"
0.0.2 Crested Geckos "Vinnie" & "Cadence"

"Have you ever tried simply turning off the T.V., sitting down with your kids... and hitting them?"

So what you're saying is that i should stick to my original plan of breeding my normal het zig-zag to my snow, and pick-up some baby black rats for the future. I pick up from some of the other responses that people are a little touchey about hybrids!

I don't mind hybrids. But you will not be able to sell that cross..... the babies are ugly (compared to other hybrids) and there is no market for them. Now if you were wanting to perform an experiment to see if the two forms of amel are allelic that would be another thing. Just make sure you have a place for all of the babies in ADVANCE!
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-David Harrison-
.1 Snow Corn "Hope"
1. Striped Anery Corn "V" or "5".....Has two names
1. Orange Albino Black Ratsnake "Chunk" (Goonies)
.1 Orange Albino Black Ratsnake "Peaches"
.1 Ball Python "Cleopatra"
0.0.2 Crested Geckos "Vinnie" & "Cadence"

"Have you ever tried simply turning off the T.V., sitting down with your kids... and hitting them?"

Might be better to ask on the hybrid forum....

personally I say don't put them together at all. There really is no need to create hybrids at all, even ones that result in pretty offspring. It isn't difficult to get an adult or yearling male corn snake to pair off with your snow. An albino or anery will make nice babies with your snow.
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PHLdyPayne

I'm well aware of the possibilities of other corn morphs, i was just curious if anyone had seen it or had experience with it before i started putting in too much research! I think i was misunderstood about my intentions! Ahwell!! on a side note, i've got a roughly 28" male okeetee thats pretty robust, any troubles breeding him to my 46" snow?? i will be hibernating them both for 2.5-3 months so they will only grow a bit in the next few weeks! Thanks

He should be ready. I bred an 18" male to my 40" female last year. Produced 19 eggs.
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-David Harrison-
.1 Snow Corn "Hope"
1. Striped Anery Corn "V" or "5".....Has two names
1. Orange Albino Black Ratsnake "Chunk" (Goonies)
.1 Orange Albino Black Ratsnake "Peaches"
.1 Ball Python "Cleopatra"
0.0.2 Crested Geckos "Vinnie" & "Cadence"

"Have you ever tried simply turning off the T.V., sitting down with your kids... and hitting them?"

Andy,

Most snake keepers don't like hybrids. I doubt there'd be much of a market for the babies if you were able to produce them. In addition, no visible morphs would be created (assuming the Black Rat Snake is normal).

Tim

Third Eye

Just to clarify the above post.

The reason all of the babies will look like a normal black rat crossed with a normal cornsnake is that all the cornsnake morphs, and specifically both amel and anery(amel anery=snow), are simple recessive genes and as such are only visible if both parents have the gene.

As a result the offspring would all be het for anery and het for snow but neither morph would be visible so the offspring would look like a normal cornxblack ratsnake hybrid.

I myself am not strongly against hybrids but I am very strict on when I think they are ok. Namely I think they have to be sold/given with the exact genetic background, in this case 50%corn 50%black rat 100%het anery 100%het amel. In addition to the full disclosure of genetic background I believe hybrids should only be created for one of two resons.
1) scietific purposes (one example being some of the venomous hybrids for venom research, and another being live bearing/egg laying hybrid research)
2) for the creation of a specific desirable appearance in an animal (i.e. something that you and others will want to keep and raise long term).

The above criteria is why I would not myself pursue cornxblack rat as I don't see it fitting either of those last two requirements.

If you already have both the snow corn and a black rat then I would instead pick up a amel/anery/snow corn and a leucistic/amel/normal black rat to fill out the two pairs. If you do not already have a black rat then I would just get a amel/anery/snow corn to fill the pair.

Sean.
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1.1 BRB
1.1 Triple Het TPRS's
1.1 Amel Bloodred Corns
0.1 Abbott Okeetee Corn
0.1 Blizzard Bloodred Corn
1.1 Thayeri Kingsnakes
0.1 Reeve's Turtle
0.2 Amstaff's
1.0 Pudytat

Nice post with clear info. But, has anyone proved the black rat albino gene to be allelic to the corn amel gene? Certainly breeding second generation babies together one would expect snow cornxBRS and anery crosses and an equal portion of amel crosses compared to the % on anery.

So if the BRS and corn amel gene are not at the same loci then even a amel BRS and amel corn cross would not produce amel hybrids on f-1.

Short term benefits to hybrids are a new looks, a few snazzy new snakes. The hype will wear off as it does on all things. Then we deal with long term effects. Snakes of unknown genetics. I'd really like to know how many snakes the average breeder gets from people they know are 100% of back ground?

I work at a herp shop that has been there for 41 years. I'll be the first to admit, we have to guess a bit, and tell ppl "we think" it is something. As most snakes come in as people get bored, or they have to sell an entire collection and even they are not sure and etc. This year has been the worst I've seen.

But add in shows. Many guys are top notch, but not all. Heck 5 years ago they caught a guy soaking ball pythons in orange Gatorade.

My point? Yea some hybrids are cool, but are we just screwing up more of the future for others? We have a way of doing that.

Now, if I could produce hybrids and have the babies fixed, so I sell them as "pets" only, and know they would not spread unknown genetics, maybe I'd do it. Until then I see no reason worth it.

IMHO as always

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Thanks for reading.
Big Tom

www.herpzilla.com

np
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1.1 BRB
1.1 Triple Het TPRS's
1.1 Amel Bloodred Corns
0.1 Abbott Okeetee Corn
0.1 Blizzard Bloodred Corn
1.1 Thayeri Kingsnakes
0.1 Reeve's Turtle
0.2 Amstaff's
1.0 Pudytat

"Nice post with clear info. But, has anyone proved the black rat albino gene to be allelic to the corn amel gene? Certainly breeding second generation babies together one would expect snow cornxBRS and anery crosses and an equal portion of amel crosses compared to the % on anery.

So if the BRS and corn amel gene are not at the same loci then even a amel BRS and amel corn cross would not produce amel hybrids on f-1."

This is part of the reason of my interest. i'm curious as to the locations of the amel loci in both snakes considering they're both rat snakes.

"Short term benefits to hybrids are a new looks, a few snazzy new snakes. The hype will wear off as it does on all things. Then we deal with long term effects. Snakes of unknown genetics. I'd really like to know how many snakes the average breeder gets from people they know are 100% of back ground?"

i'm not sure how positive you can be of any backgrounds! We're dealing with nature here and millions of years of hybridization. The only reason the are called hybrids now-a-days is that WE have hybridized(even a word?) them. Just a thought!

Thank you for your response and opinions

Andy

IMHR(in my humble RESPONSE)
haha

Sean,
I understand The simple resessive genetics of the corn snake, the reason for the question and my interest is that
1) for all i can find on the net, i havn't seen a confirmed Black Rat x Cornsnake(Red Rat). let alone a Amel/Anery Corn!
2) i'm curious what the effects the melanism of the Black Rat would have when paired with the Amelinism of the Snow in the second gen babies???

I also don't consider this a hybrid considering it's a Rat snake to a Rat snake!

Thanks for your response,advice and opinions on the matter!!

Andy

woops lol. I didn't mean amel/anery as a single gene or as a species cross. All I meant by "amel/anery corn" was amel cornsnake or anery cornsnake or snow(amel anery) cornsnake.

As far as your other points I do have a little information but not much.

First I have seen corn x black rat crosses listed in the classifieds on this forum under the "other snakes" category before but I can't tell you what they'd look like because they were always hatchlings and I don't really remember what they looked like even as hatchlings other then similar to normal corn or kisatchie corn(if I spelled it correctly).

As far as hybrid classification it is somewhat subjective as there is taxonomical changes but often even things like creamscicles, rootbear, or ultramel corns are considered hybrids. I hope I did not give the impression I am against hybridization in my response. As you said it has been going on as a natural process forever. I just want responsible hybridization with full disclosure.

I have no idea on the allelicness of the amel genes from corns and black rats.

Sean.
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1.1 BRB
1.1 Triple Het TPRS's
1.1 Amel Bloodred Corns
0.1 Abbott Okeetee Corn
0.1 Blizzard Bloodred Corn
1.1 Thayeri Kingsnakes
0.1 Reeve's Turtle
0.2 Amstaff's
1.0 Pudytat

"woops lol. I didn't mean amel/anery as a single gene or as a species cross. All I meant by "amel/anery corn" was amel cornsnake or anery cornsnake or snow(amel anery) cornsnake."

No confusion, i was refering to the same double recessive as you!!
I think i'll be putting a little more research into this, but not for the purpose of doing it myself, but to just further understand the "woulds and Coulds" of the whole thing! Thanks for yout time!!

Andy

I agree with the whole no hybrids thing, but i really don't consider a Ratsnake to a Ratsnake a hybrid! But to each his own! Thanks for your advice!!

Crossing different species creates hybrids. Corn snakes and Black Rat Snakes are two different species. It's not a matter of opinion - it's a matter of fact.

Tim

Touche!!!