Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Welcome to kingsnake.com's message board system. Here you may share and discuss information with others about your favorite reptile and amphibian related topics such as care and feeding, caging requirements, permits and licenses, and more. Launched in 1997, the kingsnake.com message board system is one of the oldest and largest systems on the internet.

Click here to visit Classifieds
Click for ZooMed
Click for 65% off Shipping with Reptiles 2 You

Is it your right to keep venomous?

gratefuldead Nov 17, 2007 06:25 PM

Hey folks...

I've been thinking very hard lately about where our hobby is going. This has been a very hot issue in recent herp news and it is the cause of much hardcore deliberation in the venomous community. In short, certain parts of the Constituion can be contrued in laymans terms as one citizen has the right to do anything under the law, so long as it does not infringe upon the rights of another citizen. So now I wonder if our community really has safety in mind. It seems to me like there are many responsible keepers in this community who advocate their rights, but I wonder if these folks are being irresponsible in advocates rights that not only they'll have, but every other individual who wants to keep hots will share. This includes folks who should not be given such a responsibility.

I'd like to hear a few other opinions on this...I'm trying to play devil's advocate from the stand point of a venomous lover, but as an objective individual, I wonder if the above is not 100% accurate...

Replies (19)

Jasonmattes Nov 18, 2007 01:05 AM

Yep it should be a persons right to own a venomous snake should they feel the need.
Just like cars,guns,dog,cats,etc.
If I get a DUI they take my drivers license away so I cant drive.
If I commit a crime with a gun the law tells me I cant own one anymore.
If I abuse my dog it gets taken away and I'm told I'm not allowed to own animals anymore.
Until you do something that proves you to be an idiot you should have the right. If you prove yourself to be an idiot you forfeit your rights.
-----
Jason

BRhaco Nov 18, 2007 08:21 AM

I'm not so sure. If I choose to keep a gun collection in my basement, then there it will stay (barring any malevolent human influence). Dogs can cause problems, but are not nearly so ndangerous on average as venomous snakes (particularly exotics).

Snakes are mobile and cryptic. If I keep a collection of hots in an irresponsible manner then there could be an escape-and an escaped Dendroaspis is a FAR more serious concern than an escaped pit bull! Unfortunately I can understand the thinking behind the more reasonable venomous laws out there. Particularly given the way hots are sometimes marketed, and some of the incidents we are seeing.

It really makes me angry that our hobby is probably, in the long run, doomed by the actions of an irresponsible minority.
-----
Brad Chambers

The Avalanche has already started-it is too late for the pebbles to vote....

jasonmattes Nov 18, 2007 10:49 AM

A escaped pit bull can be just as dangerous as any venomous snake. Dead is dead.
-----
Jason

BRhaco Nov 18, 2007 11:47 AM

Let's compare apples to apples. If we had the exact same number of escaped elapids in this country as we do free-running pit bulls, which do you think would cause more fatalities?
-----
Brad Chambers

The Avalanche has already started-it is too late for the pebbles to vote....

jasonmattes Nov 18, 2007 12:13 PM

The what if game is stupid. If someone is allowed to own a dog that is capable of killing a person there should be no reason they shouldnt be able to own a snake capable of the same thing.
It wouldnt take a very big constrictor to kill a small child. Would you like to ban those also?
-----
Jason

Upscale Nov 18, 2007 11:49 AM

In Florida we have a permit system in place. You must have your facility inspected and approved. Wanting to keep venomous snakes and being permitted by the authorities is two different things. I think once you have been legally permitted you have demonstrated a certain (acceptable to the state) competence in the ability to do so. Proper caging and maintenance, with locks, warnings posted, species information, bite protocols, etc. All things that should be required and inspected to satisfy the neighborhood that what you are doing is none of their business. I think it is important for the authorities to deny permits when there is any risk to issuing the permit, including the risk posed to responsible keepers if a “borderline” potential permitee is allowed to get the permit. I use to be against the whole permit thing, thinking it was nobody’s business, a privacy thing and all that. I guess I have come around to see the harm that can come from unqualified newbies ordering cobras, escapes, bites, etc. That’s why we have to have the system, they are to blame for everyone having to jump through the hoops. It’s a logical thing when you’re talking about having deadly impact on others around you.

BRhaco Nov 18, 2007 12:39 PM

Of course I'm not in favor of banning hots-but without some reasonable controls, a ban is inevitable, IMO.
-----
Brad Chambers

The Avalanche has already started-it is too late for the pebbles to vote....

Upscale Nov 18, 2007 01:31 PM

Only because there is no lobby for hot keeping. Politicians are always looking to latch onto anything that creates a diversion for them to appear like they are doing something while maintaining the good old boy networks and business as usual crap they were actually elected to do something about. Introducing legislation that can be sold as protecting the good snake-fearin' constituents is a win-win for them. Hot keepers tend to be conservationists who probably think habitat destruction is the biggest threat to critters of all kinds. That puts them on the wrong side of developers, mining, timber, polluters, hunters, etc. Every one of those groups have big dollar investments in politicians leaving them alone, yet think about the dangers posed to you and your neighbors by those groups compared to the "dangers" posed by keeping a snake in a cage. Let's not forget alot of neighborhoods still have venomous snakes loose all the time without them being considered a high priority problem.

BRhaco Nov 18, 2007 02:30 PM

That's true, but that's the situation we're stuck with.

Being a hunter myself, I'll strongly disagree with including us in with developers and other exploitation groups. Hunters and fishermen are some of the strongest voices out there advocating protection of vast tracts of habitat.
-----
Brad Chambers

The Avalanche has already started-it is too late for the pebbles to vote....

psilocybe Nov 18, 2007 06:07 PM

to keeping venomous reptiles. It is a PRIVILEGE. Similarly, there is no constitutional right to keeping pitbulls or any other breed of dog, or animal for that matter. Many municipalities (not sure about states) have set forth restrictions or outright bans on the keeping or breeding of "dangerous breeds of dogs".

On the counterpoint, there is a constitutional right to bear arms. So comparing venomous snake ownership to gun ownership is asinine.

I'm all for venomous snake-keeping by private citizens, obviously. I do feel however, that permit systems similar to FL's should be in place to not only prevent people who have no business keeping hots from keeping them, but also protect the PRIVILEGES of those who are responsible and experienced enough to keep them.

wstreps Nov 18, 2007 07:47 PM

Constitutionality of Current and Past anti Exotic Animal Legislation Probed

REXANO Editorial

Las Vegas, NV February 15, 2007--Private owners of wild and exotic animals in the USA have been coming under ever increasing attacks from the animal rights (AR) activists and the Association of Zoos and Aquariums (AZA). Under the guise of pretending to care for public safety, they hide their real agenda: to end the private non AZA captive ownership of wild and exotic animals and have a monopoly on their captive breeding and exhibition.

According to Antitrust Division of Department of Justice, The Sherman Antitrust Act says: "An unlawful monopoly exists when only one firm controls the market for a product or service, and it has obtained that market power, not because its product or service is superior to others, but by suppressing competition with anticompetitive conduct."
It also expresses national commitment to a free market economy in which competition free from private and governmental restraints leads to the best results for consumers.

Currently West Virginia, Indiana, Missouri and Washington states already have anti exotic legislation introduced. Ohio and North Carolina will soon follow. In many other states and localities the similar legislation has already been passed, but is it constitutional and legal?

“Same possibly unconstitutional scenario has been happening in all cases”, says Zuzana Kukol, a Nevada tiger trainer and co-founder of "Responsible Exotic Animal Ownership", www.REXANO.org, a new free web resource designed to give much needed tools and statistics based research material to private owners of exotic and wild animals to fight unfair legislation.
“AZA accredited zoos are always one of the groups supporting this legislation in the name of public safety while being exempt themselves. Looking at the fatalities caused by captive tigers in the USA since 1990, a person is almost 4 times more likely to be killed at an AZA zoo than by privately (non AZA) kept tiger.”

“AZA is not a government agency; it is a powerful private group accrediting zoos and aquariums that have met certain standards and have enough money to get accredited” says Scott Shoemaker of REXANO.” Some AZA accredited Zoos might be privately owned, however, the typical AZA Zoo’s funding comes from a mix of public&private donations”.

“The Animal Rights Movement has been busy trying to take their extreme philosophy that animals must be 'separated' ('Protected' is the new euphemism) from people by law. They have been getting some help from the American Zoo & Aquarium Association (AZA). No longer is the AZA strictly in the business of accrediting Zoos and Aquariums. The AZA is endorsing a coalition of Animal Rights Groups (now called Animal Protection Groups) and AZA accredited Zoos to bring legislation to states prohibiting the private ownership of exotic animals, or to use the new AR catch phrase 'dangerous wild animals,"
says Andrew Wyatt, President of 'NC Association of Reptile Keepers', www.NCARK.org .

“It is in the interest of AZA Zoos to back these legislative proposals because when passed there can never be any competition enter the state. Without the AZA exemption all non-AZA institutions are driven out of business. An institution must already be established before they can apply for accreditation by the AZA... making it impossible for new institutions to start up because they lack the accreditation. AR groups seek legitimacy from being endorsed by AZA Zoos; and AZA Zoos seek a monopoly regarding who can work with exotic animals. Independent wildlife professionals, educators and breeders are destroyed” adds Wyatt.

AZA Code of Professional Ethics advises: “Use only legal and ethical means when seeking to influence governmental legislation or regulations”.

“Influencing legislation from which one is being exempt and acquiring a monopoly in the process could hardly be considered ethical.” says Kukol.

“I am wondering if legislators might be assaulting Fourteenth Amendment to the US Constitution, 'Equal protection of the law', by introducing and passing these bills while exempting self accredited private group AZA from the new regulations” Kukol ponders. ”Any legislator should also see a red hypocritical flag when a private group supports new regulations that will benefit them but is exempted from them.”

"Animals are personal property; and we oppose legislation that restricts the private ownership or use of animals, or that inhibits free trade of any animal provided it meets Ohio Department of Agriculture testing and import requirements" adds Polly Britton, Ohio Association of Animal Owners (www.OAAO.us) secretary.

“As long as animal welfare and public safety laws are being followed, the private (non governmental, non AZA) ownership of exotic and wild animals should be legal and protected in the USA” says Shoemaker.

“Control the land and the animals, then you control the people,” states Kim Bloomer a natural pet care educator, professional lecturer, host of the online radio show Animal Talk Naturally www.AnimalTalkNaturally.com.
“There is a hidden agenda with regard to all of these laws and it has nothing to do with public safety or concerns for good animal care. Rather, it is about eroding or removing American freedoms, the right to own as many animals as we can provide for.”

Current focus of REXANO is to reverse the trend in over regulation, with the desire that in the near future to work on repealing excessive regulations and bans on private ownership of exotics.

TexasReptiles Nov 18, 2007 09:05 PM

Ernie,
Please read the AZA Regs and by-laws before posting REXANO
ramblings.
Randal

TexasReptiles Nov 18, 2007 09:11 PM

Forgot the link

http://www.aza.org/

Randal

wstreps Nov 19, 2007 04:45 AM

Oh I'm very familiar with the AZA and their personal agendas. The only "ramblings" posted here is the link to the AZA Regs. They sound good don't they ? Those guys should get paid in three dollar bills.

Ernie Eison

westwoodreptiles.com

TexasReptiles Nov 20, 2007 08:20 PM

Three dollar bills? hahahahahahahhaha, oh Ernie, you make me laugh!
Remember, you posted at Rexano EDITORIAL, get that? EDITORIAL.

Best,
Randal

bc422 Nov 19, 2007 09:33 AM

i would argue that it would fall under our right to privacy. but regardless of whether or not its in ink and paper, to me its self evident that my safety and well being are of no concern to anyone but myself, friends and family. however public safety is the governments concern so for that reason i am willing to debate justifying some sort of registration system so that local athoritys can inspect caging. i mean we can go to the store and buy cigarettes and smoke are selves to death and impose birth defects and helth problems to our children, or drink ourselves into a coma, or drink bleach or whatever else and its considered a private matter. just imagine that thomas jefferson was into hots and one day some guy shows up at his house and tells him that his snakes and decision making are putting himself at risk and told him to hand over his collection (and or 40% of his money in taxes). id imagine said dude would have anywhere from 3 to 10 seconds to be off mr. jeffersons property before lead started flying!

Upscale Nov 19, 2007 01:27 PM

You have no doubt read about an anonymous editorial letter written at the time of the American Revolution, said to have been authored by a patriot known only as “An American Guesser” where he remarks on the Gadsen flag, with the rattlesnake and the words “Don’t tread on me”. He makes a case for the rattlesnake being the national symbol. Do a search for “An American Guesser” on line and you can find and read it if you haven’t, you might enjoy reading about it. I like the attitude and the obvious respect he had for this creature. If they are good enough for the likes of Ben Franklin (said to have been the anonymous author) venomous snakes and the “Don’t tread on me” symbolism is something we should embrace in fighting for our hot-keeping “privilege”.

Tigerserv Nov 24, 2007 06:05 AM

Hi, new here, jumping right in:

Tax collectors are fond of using the surprise attack and of misinforming their victims as to what is actually legal, how much tax is owed. They also pretend that their intentions are benign.

Human freedom is far more of a real concern than anything that the AR people bring up, and these days it is always AR. In the 1980s and 1990s a whole political war was fought and pretty much won by exotic animal owners, such that laws that you and I didn't even know existed were wiped away and some protectionist legislation was introduced and passed, such as the law in Texas that once prevented counties from passing species bans.

SCherper09 Nov 20, 2007 08:39 AM

I think one step or another step that would help is to have more representatives for this kinda thing like Roark Ferguson here in SC. SC and Nc now how an association for reptile keepers which seems to have kept the peace and everyone is happy. But there are far more other important things goin on in the states than people keeping hots. I think those politicians spoken of in the previous posts should focus on bigger things other than scraping the bottom of the barrel for things to make them look good.

Site Tools