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Does anyone have any pictures of what septocaemia looks like in a tortoise?? My leopard has developed a redness in the sides- both upper and lower plastron- the side scutes show little "veins" of redness through the shell, and the underside shows redness in spots- concentrated near the spots on the upper plastron. Could this be septocaemia?? It's a baby leopard tortoise, and she's been stressed (you may have read my other post) I really don't want to lose her, but she's been lethargic and kinda seems to be going downhill- I could use some input. I have raised the temperature a bit

I would get her to a good herp vet ASAP. If it is septicemia /or some other kind of infection she'll need antibiotics. I wouldn't wait. I'd rather be safe than sorry. If you need help finding a vet let us know.

Your tortoise sounds very sick. Blood under the scutes is a cardinal sign of septicemia in tortoises, and it is already pretty severe when the redness of the blood shows through the scutes as you seem to be describing. I do recommend getting the animal to a vet very soon as it will need to have injectable antibiotics to fight the infection. Good luck.

Dr.Z How does a tortoise get septicemia.Vic

Vic, I hope you don't mind me answering. I don't think Bill will mind me throwing in my 2 cents...

I found the primary cause in smaller tortoises and imports is renal failure.

Bacterial infection is another cause but the first one is the usual.
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Ed @ Tortoise Keepers
Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

I hate to disagree Ed but here's MY 2cents.

Although I value your opinion, septicemia by definition is a serious infection that overwhelms the body's ability to host an immune response and leads to septic shock which is what kills. It can lead to a lot of things and Acute renal failure ( by virtue of renal hypoperfusion from massive venoarterial dilation, among other things), but renal failure cannot result in septicemia because there has to be a pathogen that " gets out of hand"

what causes Septicemia? Any infectious etiology including viral, bacterial and/or fungal. Also there's is no " picture" of septicemia other than microscopically. Blood under the scutes is not the hallmark of septicemia, and the animal can be well septic without it.

I can see wehre you misunderstood my point... which was trying to simplify what you are saying.

The body is poisoned because it cannot remove the toxins created by both normaly bodily functions and those produced by the bacteria...

The number 1 outwardly signs in turtles and tortoises is the blood visible under the scutes. When it reaches that level it is very serious in tortoises and intervention by a vet is needed.

>>I hate to disagree Ed but here's MY 2cents.
>>
>>Although I value your opinion, septicemia by definition is a serious infection that overwhelms the body's ability to host an immune response and leads to septic shock which is what kills. It can lead to a lot of things and Acute renal failure ( by virtue of renal hypoperfusion from massive venoarterial dilation, among other things), but renal failure cannot result in septicemia because there has to be a pathogen that " gets out of hand"
>>
>>what causes Septicemia? Any infectious etiology including viral, bacterial and/or fungal. Also there's is no " picture" of septicemia other than microscopically. Blood under the scutes is not the hallmark of septicemia, and the animal can be well septic without it.
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Ed @ Tortoise Keepers
Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

I guess we're on the same track. But the point I was trying to get across is that blood under the scutes doesn't autimaticaly mean septicemia. People see blood under the scutes and immediatly think of septicemia, which is not true. Its a sign of shock but not necessarily septic.

Hi Guys. In essence, all of the above statements are at least partially correct. Below is the info on "septicemia" from the University of Maryland Medical Center (my alma mater) web site which may be helpful to some readers. As for me, if I see blood under the scutes or seeping out the seams in the plastron, my first thought is that the animal is "septic". The problem then becomes figuring out the actual cause of the sepsis in time to save the animal.

Definition:
Septicemia is the presence of bacteria in the blood ( bacteremia ) and is often associated with severe disease.

Alternative Names:
Blood poisoning; Bacteremia with sepsis

Causes, incidence, and risk factors:
Septicemia is a serious, life-threatening infection that gets worse very quickly. It can arise from infections throughout the body, including infections in the lungs, abdomen, and urinary tract. It may come before or at the same time as infections of the bone ( osteomyelitis ), central nervous system ( meningitis ), or other tissues.

Septicemia can rapidly lead to septic shock and death. Septicemia associated with some organisms (germs) such as meningococci can lead to shock , adrenal collapse, and disseminated intravascular coagulopathy , a condition called Waterhouse-Friderichsen syndrome .

Ok... I'll rephrase it... if you see blood through the scutes or the tortoise is wheeping blood through the scutes or the attach point between the skin and the shell the odds are very good that the tortoise is septic.

In my experience those odds have been running 0.

>>I guess we're on the same track. But the point I was trying to get across is that blood under the scutes doesn't autimaticaly mean septicemia. People see blood under the scutes and immediatly think of septicemia, which is not true. Its a sign of shock but not necessarily septic.
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Ed @ Tortoise Keepers
Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

>>Ok... I'll rephrase it... if you see blood through the scutes or the tortoise is wheeping blood through the scutes or the attach point between the skin and the shell the odds are very good that the tortoise is septic.
>>
>>In my experience those odds have been running 0.
>>
>>
>>>>I guess we're on the same track. But the point I was trying to get across is that blood under the scutes doesn't autimaticaly mean septicemia. People see blood under the scutes and immediatly think of septicemia, which is not true. Its a sign of shock but not necessarily septic.
>>-----
>>Ed @ Tortoise Keepers
>>Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care
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Ed @ Tortoise Keepers
Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

Wait have you changed your mind, I thought you said its renal failure that causes that.

"Ok... I'll rephrase it... if you see blood through the scutes or the tortoise is wheeping blood through the scutes or the attach point between the skin and the shell the odds are very good that the tortoise is septic.

In my experience those odds have been running 0."

Yup... changed my mind or better put... my choice of words.

No... I'll go one step further to make you feel better...

I was wrong. I was mistaken. I did not know what I was talking about.

>>Wait have you changed your mind, I thought you said its renal failure that causes that.
>>
>>
>>"Ok... I'll rephrase it... if you see blood through the scutes or the tortoise is wheeping blood through the scutes or the attach point between the skin and the shell the odds are very good that the tortoise is septic.
>>
>>In my experience those odds have been running 0."
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Ed @ Tortoise Keepers
Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

Thanks all,The only time I saw it was in the big 2001 TSA confiscation,NASTY,Now for part 2.(or another can of beens to be opened)Once your tortoise gets to this point,is there anything you should "do"to other torts.that were around the infected one other than remove the sick one.Would there be something to look for or treat proactivly.I realize it could be a number of infections or viro,but at this scarry stage what should one do with LARGE collections.I would like to be prepared if I should be so hexed to get it in my animals.Thanks,Vic Pic is of a female that servived the confiscation mentioned that had thousands of sick turtles and torts.It now reproduces in captivity.

I only answer this because I'm a glutton for punishment and I'm in one heck (because I can't say the other H word) of a masochistic mood.

I separate the animal. I have a blood work up done. I treat it aggressively with antibiotics.

or

I slam it with Baytril and flagyl which works the majority of the time but there is usually an underlying cause.

but I could be mistaken...

I now know why most of the good experienced tortoise keepers are recluses.

>>Thanks all,The only time I saw it was in the big 2001 TSA confiscation,NASTY,Now for part 2.(or another can of beens to be opened)Once your tortoise gets to this point,is there anything you should "do"to other torts.that were around the infected one other than remove the sick one.Would there be something to look for or treat proactivly.I realize it could be a number of infections or viro,but at this scarry stage what should one do with LARGE collections.I would like to be prepared if I should be so hexed to get it in my animals.Thanks,Vic Pic is of a female that servived the confiscation mentioned that had thousands of sick turtles and torts.It now reproduces in captivity.
>>
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Ed @ Tortoise Keepers
Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

As I said earlier I respect your opinions, and its not about who's right or wrong, we're not little kids to argue over that.

And I can respect this response. You caught me on a bad day.
Sorry.

>>As I said earlier I respect your opinions, and its not about who's right or wrong, we're not little kids to argue over that.
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Ed @ Tortoise Keepers
Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

No problem

Doing anything other than separating and treating the sick one would probably be a good idea but is impractical.I wouldn't worry about the other animals falling ill if they are healthy but keep a vigilant eye, if they start showing signs of illness quick treatment will prevent septicemia and the subsquent DIC that manifests as the bloody scutes

Like Ed said baytril flagyl is a good starting point. It will cover most organisms. Baytril covers gram -ve , gram , and atypicals. Flagyl will cover anearobes and protozoa.