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live food eats king python!

willzy Nov 20, 2007 07:17 AM

http://forums.kingsnake.com/view.php?id=1230337,1230337

found this in the european snake forum

thought it was worth pointing out the realities cuz i've read a million and more times not to leave unattended live food in a snake's habitat, and I'm new to all this. It just shows how invaluable the info is that people post on forums and caresheets (even if you repeat yourselves from time to time!), and how important it is to do the basic research before caring for an animal.

I also thought that the experts may be able to advise the 'king python' owner as he hasn't had any replies yet.

Good Day,

Willz

Replies (31)

jmartin104 Nov 20, 2007 10:53 AM

It happens and it's not a matter of if, but when. I had a 3000 gram female get chewed up severely by a small-med rat. The snake literally let the rodent chew it from head to toe. The snake survived but it was left a scarred mess.

After this season, I'm going completely to non-live feeding.

Feed FT?

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Jay A. Martin
Jay Martin Reptiles

RMB Nov 20, 2007 11:04 AM

Just an FYI (since you mention nutrient loss as a potential argument against f/t): there are numerous studies on nutrient (protein, carbohydrates, and lipids) composition before and after freezing in all types of foods (primarily for consumptive uses by humans). The bottom line: there is no loss of nutrients due to the freezing process. In addition, no vitamins or minerals are altered as a result of the freezing process.

jmartin104 Nov 20, 2007 11:33 AM

I would be quite interested in seeing some facts if you have them. In my research, I found multiple studies indicating some degradation of nutrients during the freezing and unthawing process.
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Jay A. Martin
Jay Martin Reptiles

RMB Nov 20, 2007 12:28 PM

Yes, the problem arises during improper handling (e.g. thawing directly in water, etc.), not from freezing (have a look into research on factors affecting loss of nutrients, vitamins, minerals, etc. - you will see that none are affected by freezing).

For starters, we must ensure that the word nutrient is not used incorrectly. For example, many people use the word nutrient to describe a vitamin for some reason. For our purposes, nutrients refer only to proteins, carbohydrates and lipids - and there is not a single legitimate (peer-reviewed) study that found significantly different levels of nutrients before and after freezing.

Now, as mentioned, some problems arise with vitamin levels during the thawing process. Many water soluble vitamins can leach into water, or degrade with prolonged exposure to oxygen, high heat or light, etc. However, as mentioned, this would be considered improper handling techniques and the losses are not significant anyway (may be due to sampling error), so the point is moot.

If handled properly (for example, thawed in a Ziploc bag in warm water and fed as soon as possible), there are no significant differences in nutrients, vitamins, minerals (inorganic), etc.

Some quick searches should provide you with the information you requested.

jmartin104 Nov 20, 2007 12:39 PM

>>Some quick searches should provide you with the information you requested.

I have found arguments on both sides. The article was meant as a starting point for someone considering alternatives. The bottom line is that there is more of a chance of nutrient loss for the F/T feeding process than feeding live.
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Jay A. Martin
Jay Martin Reptiles

RMB Nov 20, 2007 12:52 PM

Well, there really is not much room for argument. I mean, people will argue until they are blue in the face but the TRUE bottom line is that there is no scientific evidence that suggests freezing is a factor affecting nutrient loss. So, there is NO chance, and no point in mentioning it. I mean, I can claim that the earth is flat, but all evidence points to the contrary, so who would then claim it as a possibility?
Fortunately, since this point has a direct impact on our consumptive use, MANY studies have been conducted so there is more than enough information out there. I say again, there is no peer-reviewed scientific study that concludes that the act of freezing is a factor in nutrient loss.

jmartin104 Nov 20, 2007 12:54 PM

Have a nice day!
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Jay A. Martin
Jay Martin Reptiles

RMB Nov 20, 2007 01:22 PM

Ha, nah... I don't win, and you don't lose. The only people who would lose would be those who risk feeding live for fear of an inferior feed when using f/t. That's my only concern. Not winning or losing, but making sure people have all the facts.
Have a good day, too.

i95east Nov 20, 2007 05:27 PM

i don't think that's caused by feeding live rodents, i think that's caused by feeding hungry live rodents. think it through. the only edible thing in the cage is the snake. so when i clean my cages i drop a couple of pellets of rat chow in each cage. cost is almost nothing. that way if the rodent wants to gnaw on something, it's not my snake. i feed frozen to everything but the ball pythons, it is just too time consuming to warm it up, and wiggle it, etc. i don't raise my own rodents, when they are delivered, i throw in some food and leave them in the snakeroom for an hour or so. they fill up [gut load] on the good chow, and the snakes become very aware it's feeding time. i also use bright orange clothespins to mark any cage with a live rat in it. not foolproof, but it makes it a lot harder to leave a rat in the cage mistakenly. kurt d.

jmartin104 Nov 20, 2007 05:48 PM

One thing I can say based on experience. The rat does not need to be hungry. Like you I drop in a pellet with each rat - it keeps them occupied while they are being stalked. But I have seen rats take nasty bites out of snakes - food in plain sight. So I'm not so sure.

I think the rats just freak - cornered, flight or fight - and begin to attack. I have seen many rats so freaked out, it was hard to get them out of the cage.

Either way, this is my last year feeding live. They switch next year or they go.
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Jay A. Martin
Jay Martin Reptiles

jmartin104 Nov 20, 2007 12:25 PM

Although, it still might be a good idea to add a blurb that their are claims both ways.
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Jay A. Martin
Jay Martin Reptiles

RMB Nov 20, 2007 12:29 PM

Why is that a good idea?
Any layman can make a claim. The best idea is to focus on facts, not claims.

jmartin104 Nov 20, 2007 12:45 PM

I misread and mispoke. I had to reread the article:

The only plausible reason for feeding live is avoid nutrient loss through freezing. While many believe this is not a problem, I have not seen any studies of nutrient loss from freezing rodents.

At the time of writing.
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Jay A. Martin
Jay Martin Reptiles

chonjoepython Nov 20, 2007 01:43 PM

that some snakes wont eat thawed prey. none of mine will, and believe me ive tried. the key is to watch and make sure that the snake effectively kills the prey, and not leave a live prey item in with the snake if the snake is not interested.

DavidKendrick Nov 20, 2007 01:58 PM

I have had Hundreds of snakes, over the past 15 years, from Colubrids, to Boas and Pythons to Garter Snakes... and NOT 1 of them has NOT switched over to F/T Prey...they all will eventually..

Some take longer, but paitence is key...I have a really hard time when people say thier snake ONLY eats live, I have proved SO many people wrong on this, Your snake WILL eat F/T it just depends on how you switch them over, but any snake will eat F/T it just takes patience, and sometimes time....

But I have Never had a snake not eventually switch to F/T...
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Executive Reptiles
Amanda Kingsbury & David Kendrick
www.executivereptiles.com

DavidKendrick Nov 20, 2007 02:03 PM

All of our snakes feed on F/T and have for years, really in this day and age, feeding Live is one of those things you tend to see when a group of people get together and like to watch the rodent be constricted...there is no reason in my eyes to feed live, and will continue to feed F/T.
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Executive Reptiles
Amanda Kingsbury & David Kendrick
www.executivereptiles.com

chonjoepython Nov 20, 2007 02:12 PM

yes, i invite all of my friends and neighbors over to watch a rat be constricted. ive considered charging admission.

btaylor Nov 20, 2007 10:24 PM

"feeding Live is one of those things you tend to see when a group of people get together and like to watch the rodent be constricted..."

That has to be the most ignorant reply in this thread...
BT

JasBalls Nov 20, 2007 10:31 PM

Your both idiotic for that statement..
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http://www.jasballpythons.com./

chonjoepython Nov 20, 2007 02:08 PM

how many rodents do i have to throw in the garbage that go uneaten? ill just keep feeding live and watch the snake kill and eat the prey. i do understand that people with hundreds of snakes dont really have time to watch each snake kill prey, but i do! but i am done wasting money on rodents that end up in the landfill instead of my snakes belly.
joe

btaylor Nov 20, 2007 10:19 PM

I feed all my BP’s live and have never had a problem…IMO – If done in a responsible way – You won’t have a problem…Leave a hungry and thirsty rat in the tub for a long period of time and yes – Your looking for problems…This whole live vs F/T debate is pretty lame…Do what ever works for you…I’m with Joe – What am I suppose to do with a 100 defrosted uneaten rats every week? Make that hundreds – I feed twice a week…I guess I’m thrash for “power feeding” too huh? LOL…Am I suppose to refreeze them? How many times can you refreeze them?
BT

mweippert Nov 21, 2007 02:40 AM

i feed both, i short myself of ft just incase somebody doesnt want to eat and finish up with live for whoever is left. i have found this to work best for me because i have one male that i adopted that just wont take ft every time so he gets fed last. i will hold the feeder so the snake will get a good strike at the head to prevent the mouth of the feeder from being able to bite. just what i do

alpharoyals Nov 20, 2007 02:49 PM

That post is a year old now!
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You all talk Balls,I talk Royals ;0)
www.alpharoyals.co.uk

jyohe Nov 20, 2007 03:24 PM

....and read it.....and remembered parts of it.........?

.....

I feed live

I forget at times and live is in cage all night........oops.....stuff happens............I had one baby ball get bitten a little once in 17 years........and it wasn't a good feeder to begin with......

scary is forgetting a huge ASFR all night and all day.......

.........yet it and snake were fine....and ignoring each other after 20--24 hours.......lucky.....

another problem ........homemade racks...using 1/2 x 1/2 plastic mesh........rodents chew out the screen tops .......and the snake will follow.......that sucks.......

........
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jonf Nov 20, 2007 08:15 PM

We are all missing the real point:
The Ball Python forum is kicking major a$$ over the European Snake Forum as demonstrated by this "recent" post.
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Jon F

larry_suttles Nov 20, 2007 10:03 PM

heres the culprit!!

jmartin104 Nov 21, 2007 07:05 AM

>>
>>
>>heres the culprit!!
>>
>>
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Jay A. Martin
Jay Martin Reptiles

willzy Nov 21, 2007 03:44 AM

Oh yes, so it is Sir - and it started some right old banter.

Do I detect another Englishman on the forum?! I'm in Greenwich.

Toodlepip

alpharoyals Nov 21, 2007 01:58 PM

Yes you do old chap ;0)

I'm in Basingstoke, Hampshire, Not a million miles from you.

You should pop round for afternoon tea and we can talk Royals LOL
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You all talk Balls,I talk Royals ;0)
www.alpharoyals.co.uk

JenHarrison Nov 22, 2007 02:31 AM

The idiot left the rat in there for hours (or overnight, I don't quite get the timeline). But that is HIS fault, he shouldn't have left it in there.

I feed live, and I will never feed f/t. Only one of my snakes gets prekilled rats (my big Colombian rainbow boa), but because he has brain damage from being overheated by his previous owner and doesn't know how to constrict his prey whatsoever. Frozen rodents are disgusting when thawed out (they stink and some have leaked major blood all over), unsanitary (I don't care how well I disinfect the sink and/or counter, the idea of having dead rodents touching it is foul), time-consuming to deal with, take up way too much space, and end up wasted when not eaten. I don't have any of those problems with live. I go get my feeders, come home, feed them off within 30 minutes, and that's the end of it. If I have some left over, I throw them in a glass tank with a water bottle, feed them leftover table scraps that would have otherwise gone in the trash, and feed them off later on. I use nothing bigger than recently weaned small rats -- they're too dumb and naive to understand what is going on and just sit there. They are easily overpowered by the snake without much ability to fight back. The adult larger snakes just get multiples. I don't leave them in for longer than 5 minutes -- if the snake doesn't eat it within 5 minutes, it isn't going to eat it at all. 99% of these cases where snakes are getting messed up/killed by rodents are when adult rodents are left alone in the cage for 15, 20, 30, 60 minutes -- or hours or days. That is the keeper's bad move and therefore their fault if something happens. Be attentive -- problem solved.
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~* Jen *~

Pink Lady Constrictors

btaylor Nov 22, 2007 08:48 AM

Jen - That's the best reply to this whole lame ass thread I've read...That's almost exactly how I do it - smalls - multiple smalls for bigger snakes...Don't eat in 10 - 15 minutes - The rat gets pulled...No problems...
BT

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