Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Ummkay, you may have seen this pic long ago but here's a true blue blooded MO syspila from a mystery county. Can you peg the county or general area??
The snake really is a tan/camel/beige color - the photo hasn't been fixed to make you go shopping for a new monitor.
Jeff

That's a beauty of a snake. Missouri produced the nicest syspila in the world without a doubt...and that look can occur anywhere...BUT, I'll take a stab at it.

It has a high band count and orange instead of red...which is indicative of a western MO snake...like Taney, Barry Camden or Benton counties...the patternalso support this. Typically I've noticed that eastern ranged syspila have more of a triangulum triangulum look to them and this one doesn't seem to. Regardless of this, I'm going to go with Jefferson County. Maybe St. Louis County or even ST. Charles or Franklin County...but yeah, I'll stick with Jefferson. In fact, maybe it was V.V. Glade. The reason I mention that is the key diagnostic feature that I'm usuing, the eye stripe and the connected black from the first red saddle to the eye stripe...I've seen Jefferson County snakes with that same feature...But this is all just a stab in the dark and I'm probably way off. I don't have much experience in the east...

Hmm, really didn't think you'd miss! But this is a "one off" locality.
Here's a sibling of the previous animal and there's more than a fair resemblance to L.T.T. on this little fem.
The county St Francois, a bit further south than Jefferson and slightly more west but you were certainly in the ballpark.
BTW, nice to have you here with your archive of N.A. milks and thanx for sharing so many pics!
Jeff

St. Francois County actually borders Jefferson County, which is straight north of it and actually extends further west than St. Francois County...So I'll consider that a win. I mean c'mon, the county I named borders the correct one, lol. No but really, I did both of those snakes. I think we spoke on the phone once about syspila localities etc and you know my friend Dan from here in KC. Anyway, thanks for that post Jeff!

Jefferson County came immediately to mind -- not that I'm anywhere NEAR an expert in N.A. triangulum. Beautiful animal though! Good stuff Jeff -- still burnin' the midnight oil on those lil' obnoxious worms?

Jerry Kruse

" alt="Image">

Judging by the sid posted down thread I assume this is a potential morph. I know you guys really cream over locality morphs but that crossed to the hypo syspila would be incredibly unique if only for a couple of generations.

....considering that the vast majority of 'milkheads'(obvious exception being the morphed-out hondo craze) are interested in locality animals-best example being(but not limited to) coastals-and that there is little if any obvious,recurring physical deformities among 'locality-true' hatchlings that scream out a need of outside genetic diversity at this time-WHY MIX LOCALES when for the above possible advantage;versus the indisputable drawback of diluting bloodlines other breeders have tried for years to keep 'locality pure'?this last point is my personal biggest fear,backcrossing mixed stock to pure as i have always kept locality animals,despite the higher cost.hope that was not too confusing of a question,but i really would like to hear the other side of the argument.
-----
"with head raised regally,and gazing at me with lidless eyes,he seemed to question with flicks of his long forked tongue my right to trespass on his territory" Carl Kauffeld

These syspila were selectively bred eons ago by Dave Blody and they're simply the last word in hypo syspila today. That said, your point is well taken; locality milks are the minority in collections today whether the stock is N.A or south of the Rio Grande and wouldn't it be nice if breeders had kept accurate records and kept the "lines" pure back in the 70s.
No use crying over spilt milks....

In the example Tone proposes, IF I had those locality syspila still, would it matter one whit if they were experimentally bred to a hypo one year?
I like pure lines with locality too, believe me, but there's room for some fun projects on the side. Within reason.

Wish I had better pics of the hypo syspila, these are OK but the line has produced some staggering examples. Now if I could cross them to a micropholis and get a 6 foot Frankenspila!
Jeff

Why SHOULD folks be so loyal to keeping locality bloodlines pure? Is it to satisfy a few people who prefer it that way, or is there any other reason? If those same folks are the only ones who really value "pure" blood, then who else does it really matter to and thus why is it important to the masses?

What is so fundementally advantageous about a locale snake? Seems to me like it's all pretty ambiguous...I mean shoot, what defines a locality? Is it a county, or a geographic range like a mountain range...or is it a specific habitat within a range...what? I know that alterna are considered locality based on a roadcut in some instances...when does this roadcut/locality
end and the next one begin?

I'm not a herpetoculturist for the most part and I've never bred anything...BUT I like the idea of keeping things pure to locality. When I explored a little more into why I prefer this, I didn't really have much of an explanation...Thus why I ask...

Didn't this topic come up on fieldherper this summer and rage until the flogged horse was reduced to pulp?
The locality issue is more significant for the milks south of the Rio Grande (I think I posted these very words on fieldherper) and I'd guess the crotalus boys(like us milkheads) would prefer locality info where ranges are miniscule and the holotype came from downtown Jalapan.
I make allowances for some non-locality snakes but by and large, always prefer a locality with my snakes.
Personal preference I suppose....
Jeff

I don't think that I took part in that debate...though there are so many...

just to interject(would still like to hear from others here)-first off yeah it comes down to personal preference.in many cases i think the locality thing has gone askew,where it serves no real purpose.i like to think my opinions are based in reason...i wasn't challenging the notion of breeding triangulums from two adjacent counties where there is no physical barrier to gene flow-remember the species as a whole integrates freely throughout it's range.

in such a case it would just give you precise knowledge of it's origin(helpful for a couple reasons);e.g. the ambiguity it would erase from what would otherwise be labeled as just a 'red milk'....also with central american milks,one could really say a subspecific tag is questionable without knowing it's locality origin.

but what i was really talking about were milks from populations that have been clearly isolated for long periods of time,specifically temporalis.being from mid-atlantic origin myself i know lots of coastal fans,both old and young.hell it's almost like a cult.it almost goes without saying,that locality info is needed on any captive snakes.most would say once a line is mixed with 'outside blood',it's rendered no good,a mutt,etc....many are strict,right down to county-specific but again almost all at least divide them by the three main clusters of the snake's range-south jersey,maryland,and n. carolina...not preachign here just honestly want to hear the 'other side of the argument'.
-----
"with head raised regally,and gazing at me with lidless eyes,he seemed to question with flicks of his long forked tongue my right to trespass on his territory" Carl Kauffeld

"most would say once a line is mixed with 'outside blood', it's rendered no good,a mutt,etc...."

"Most"? I think that is subjective. Just because some "fanatic" temp-heads feel that way doesn’t mean most hobbyists do.

I don't know why as a breeder of generics I'm continually asked to make my case as to why I've elected this path. I'm fine with me walking mine and you walking yours so it seems to me if you think yours is the best path you need to come up with some reason other than personal preference. I would entertain the preservation argument but I work with morphs and that somehow doesn't dovetail very well with a preservation ethic. Fact is I sell pet snakes and I think it’s in best interest of my customers to provide the most well bred animals possible. In the case of hypo coastals I think this includes steering clear of overly line bred locality types. Its pretty simple really.

......to start with .I don't mind either local or non-locality critters and I like hybrid species as well....

as long as records are kept......

example......last show.......guy walking around with a king..I asked selling or just bought it......he says selling......I said what is it.(I knew to an extent)..he says....brooks'.......I says yea but what kind of brooks'?.......he says.....????brooks'.....period........I bought it for a friend and we still don't know what it is.....a hypo or flame hypo or an extreme red hypo or maybe even a lavender albino or lav amel flame???? they all look the same to me........showed it to others and we are still guessing.......like I told the friend that has it......what it is is a $65 snake worth alot more......he'll breed it to his male het extreme red (het hypo and het axanthic also?>???)........too many colors in one het......LOL

.....locality......sometimes it is so people know what they are getting as in color and pattern.......as with grey bands.....some have a certain pattern that people want..yes they throw other patterns and colors at times and some locals throw all kinds of stuff,,,but at times people think of one good color/pattern and want that.....

too much talk.....example.okeetee corns.......people want THAT look........and / or local

temporalis all have a certain look ......you can tell St Mary from Ocean county NJ and Harford counties.........and Tyrells' for sure.....

......pygmy rattlers......Georgia stock is bigger and eats mice as some NC stock eats salamanders to start more and are slower growing and smaller adults (not my experience but friends have them )......

.......I am rambling again.........

........know of a guy that is proud to have created sinaloae x triangulum...........

.
.

............
-----
..............

..................
.

Post a good quality shot of your "brooksi" morph, or whatever it may be over on the "kingsnake" forum. There are a few guys over there that specialize in brooksi morphs. A few individuals I know over there have produced EVERY brooks morph there is on the planet. The one you have will be easy for some of those guys to identify for you.

~Doug

-----
"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

it's at the friend's home now and I haven't taken a pic in maybe 2 years..someday O gotta get the cameras out...they didn't work the one day long ago and peossed me off ,,,..sorry...I know..I got people all the time asking for shots of different stuff......and some stuff I got are worthy of a pic.....a couple are maybe one of a kind..well......3 of a kind.......(yellow opal corns)....and some cool balls .....and yes some temporalis also.......

............

......
-----
..............

..................
.

I don't know Justin, do you have to wait till deformities start to appear before you concider a little selective outcrossing? I don't think so. For my part, I crossed the hypo coastal because fecundity was in the basement. Now it isn't and I'm proud of that fact. I still say the real question is why not cross localities? Isn't there room for locality and line bred or multiply morph types?

While I have most of my experience with coastals, the dynamics definately cross ssp.. When I started breeding I bred for MYSELF, specimens were rare, and crossing locales was a "sign of weakness" in your ability to get matched pairs. I bred a ton of babies without first realizing both the market and ability to feed that many small babies. I made that mistake.
From there I had alot of milks, most with locality data, but all honestly represented as well as their offspring. Having locality data made it easier to sell the babies because thats what OTHER people wanted. Most of the old-time locality guys also would not believe that you could produce locality animals AND non-locale.....that your animals were NOT all honestly represented. This hurt because it was a "small society" that you had to be apart of to increase your chances of matching up locale animals without mates. Many times unique animals were NOT bred because a "suitable"mate couldnt be found.
Most times the only NA milks you could get as adults were non locale, this still holds today. It takes so much time to get a milk to breeding size that cb adult breeders are rarely available. If they arent "overpriced"(compared to wc milks)they are extensively scrutinized. And this scrutiny doesnt stop there....
I sold a locale milk from Iowa as a RED milk with locality data to the county. I got this one from Shannon, caught by Kirk(and the circle is so small we should all know last names,lol). I sent pics, but the guy still raised a fuss because it wasnt RED ENOUGH to be a red milk.LOL! Here is one case that locality (and a key)actually backfired, but that was sold to someone not knowing(or understanding)locality.
Now I know Tony likes to do both as well, and he wants to get his hands on my monster island milks to cross them into his hypo coastal line....For him, to breed a BIG version of what he has/wants is a really good thing. For me, to thin out an already amazingly thin "line" wouldnt be "appropriate" YET. I think timing has something to do with it too.
Bottom line for me, I would love to produce 100 baby coastals a year to have the diversity to pick from to keep my holdbacks(there just isnt much diversity because not enough are produced). More importantly now though is to be able to be able to move(read:sell)my offspring in a timely fashion so I dont have to take care of those same 100 baby snakes for an extended period of time....We all have our limits, and I think its smart to consider offspring capacity rather than breeder space because you can always get more space, you cant always get more TIME. Sorry for the long ramble,lol. Jeff

"Having locality data made it easier to sell the babies because thats what OTHER people wanted."

Though I hear this time and again I personally never found this to be the case. In my experience most people have gone for the pretty over the locality but then I was never in the small society of locality coastal breeders that I think primarily was you New England guys.

"Now I know Tony likes to do both as well, and he wants to get his hands on my monster island milks to cross them into his hypo coastal line"

Not even close to true and I've never approached you about getting them. It would be interesting to see the result but I've no need to make my coastals bigger. Breeding into the Tyrrell line did that. Interestingly this "southern line" of hypos has small clutches and large eggs and most neonates take pinks right out of the egg.